Regulation or 'ordenanza'

[digifidd]

I had to complete two forms -    The first one with all  my personal details and my property details.
The second one - was another copy of the form  I completed two months ago to obtain  my Certificate of Habitation -
It is a form where I personally  have to confirm  that I have no Denuncias or outstanding fines listed against my property ??  

See this is it, they have people over a barrel about things like this.  They are making people swear to things that they are not in a position to swear to. Surely this can't be lawful?  This is a fait accompli in terms of process and yet the process is flawed.

It is merely a money making exercise for the local town hall who are complicit in condoning the past planning infringements by local Spaniards but wont do anything about it.

[Forever English]

Its most probably free for the Spanish.  :head 808

[The Sheriff ILLIA.]

I have just applied to Albox Ayuntamiento for a Certificado Expediente   which is a Certificate issued by the Ayuntamiento to prove there are no Denuncias or Outstanding Fines listed against my property - this will cost € 50.ºº.

I had to complete two forms -    The first one with all  my personal details and my property details.

The second one - was another copy of the form  I completed two months ago to obtain  my Certificate of Habitation -

It is a form where I personally  have to confirm  that I have no Denuncias or outstanding fines listed against my property ??  

I came away wondering why / what I was paying the € 50.ºº  for ??????????

[Roger]

The situation is as bad, if not worse, in Arboleas.

The Arboleas Help Desk is trying to get all the information.
We are of the opinion that the Spanish just do not understand.

We are arranging several meetings with Luis Caparros, plus a large public meeting.

We will keep everyone informed on our web site.
www.arboleasnow.com

[digifidd]

Thanks Dan for the advice, I hadn't thought of that one.  Next time we are over, we'll see if we have any success in this direction.

Nope, not going to give up - need to keep all options open and make decisions accordingly, but equally need the relevant information to do this - easier said than done in Spain.  They are not exactly open with regards to helpful information.

We can certainly made ourselves understood with our Spanish, but in this area (that is more slippery than an eel), I wouldn't want any misunderstandings and so will probably invest in an interpreter to state my need for this info.

Even if I do understand everything being said, money well spent in my opinion.

Digi.

[Danny]

Hi Digi,

there should be a Public Prosecutor's office in the Ayuntamiento, if you can find that you may have more success.  There is one in Cantoria so I would expect one in a larger town such as Albox. But if your Spanish is not too good it would pay to take a translator, and be polite but insistent. Not saying this is the case with you, but far too many ex-pats are just accepting the situation they find themselves in.

Dan T

[digifidd]

I just wish the Town Hall would get its act together re denuncias.  On the one hand I'm being told to go to the town hall to find out if our house is on a list or map and then when my husband goes down there, he is told that they do not have this information.

Who is right?

Although I am tempted to get the hab license as this is the only bit of paper I am missing (I bizarrely have an escritura for land and house - it can't be legal though!), I don't want to risk more money on the very strong possibility that my house has been denounced and I dont know about it.  Also, I know that getting this license wont get me legality as our house was built on segregated rustic land and as from the above article, that fact alone can't make my place legal.

In the meantime, our bank manager in Spain is telling us to sell the place as they reckon people are buying "illegal houses as investments"!!  I just dont understand that Spanish attitude from a moral standpoint.  Who in their right minds would WANT to buy an illegal property without all paperwork, the possibility of capricious demolition and a developer who likes to control the area that he has sold through bullying and extortion?  Not going to happen.

I'm getting dizzy from going round in circles. :crazy:

[Danny]

I am told that this press release has also been translated into Spanish and sent out, just remains to be seen which Spanish publications dare to print it.

Things are moving very slowly, as the Mayor of Cantoria said to us, "bit by bit by bit by bit". It would be nice if it were in our lifetime.

I personally think that this new Ordenanza is a work in progress and we should see improvements. There are probably very few houses that fit the criteria to get the new paperwork, so it is not working in its present format.

Full marks to the AUAN for having the guts to come out and say what they think of it! Maybe a little less pussyfooting around by all is what is needed.

[digifidd]

The Ayuntamiento really could try harder with this.  They are trying to give those affected what they want (ie licenses and access to services) without causing offense amongst the influential businessmen of the Almanzora valley, by denouncing those who have helped caused the situation or by hitting their pockets.  

As this probably involves half of the local businesses (banks, estate agents, lawyers, developers etc) this wouldn't be very popular would it if they were asked to stump up what they should have paid for in the first place or were paid to do!!?

It's far easier to squeeze the people they consider have the money or can afford it - not so unlike the powers that be in Blighty is it?!  Politics and political decisions are the same everywhere.

Whoops!  My cynical side is showing again. :whistle:

[blueboy]

Just about say's it all Dan, did anybody expect anything else?

[sleepo47]

mmmmmmm another way of extracting yet more money. what a bunch of bottoms .you know what I really mean. They dont really want to listen now do they?  !!! :whistle:

[Danny]

Reproduced with kind permission

AUAN press release – 25th  July  2009
In April Albox town council published a new municipal regulation or 'ordenanza' which purported to permit hundreds of long suffering residents, caught in the 'illegal housing' trap, to have access to water and electricity. Similar 'ordenanzas' have now been published in Cantoria and Partaloa. Albox council provided a guide price of around €850 for this 'special license' which must be paid in addition to the cost of an architects' certificate of antiquity, notary fees, registration fees, taxes and stamp duty. In practice the license fee is dependent on property size and other factors such as swimming pools, garages etc.
The AUAN, who have long campaigned on this issue, speaking frequently to the mayors of the valley and the Junta, greeted the new regulation with great interest and not a little hope.
We are therefore bitterly disappointed to report that on closer inspection the new regulation fails to deliver in some fundamental ways.
You can only get the escritura for your house if you declare that you are the promoter because most people do not have a 10 year guarantee for their property.  By declaring that you are the promoter you run the risk of prejudicing yourself in the eyes of the court if you subsequently find that your house is subject to litigation.  As we believe that many houses are subject to litigation in the valley this is a very real risk. As a self proclaimed promoter, you also make yourself responsible for funding the future provision of infrastructure.
You require the deeds for your land. The majority of homeowners cannot provide deeds for their land because their property was built on unsegregated rustic plots. And, as the councils and the Junta should know, you cannot legally segregate rustic land for non-agricultural purposes.  We have written to Sr. Luis Caparros (the delegate for housing and planning) to highlight our concerns at this fundamental lack of understanding of the real issues.
In short the license will only be of use to the handful of people who have an escritura for their land, a 10 year buildings guarantee and/or who are prepared to take the risk that there is no civil or criminal actions against their home.
And what of the developers?  Well, it's a get out of jail free card for them!
And what of the councils who are alleged to be co-responsible for this mess. Multiply €850 by hundreds of houses and you have your answer.
And what of the unfortunate souls who paid their promoters in good faith for a home with services? Well, it would appear that our elected representatives think that they should pay again!  However, the 'ordenanza' is so badly thought out and designed that many people can't obtain this license even if they decide to submit in desperation to further exploitation.
We say – shame on you!  If this is the best that you can do to resolve a crisis that is destroying the reputation of the Andalucian building industry, you should be replaced by your electorate.