Legal Documents required for selling our house

[andie]

"Are we both wrong?"


lets hope not.

you also need to lighten up a bit Roger ,i am only expressing my owne non political over veiw .

its good to talk


S   :tiphat:

[Roger]

Steve.
You seem obsessed with turning every thread into an attack on the 'pensioners' who run the Arboleas Help Desk.
You seem convinced that we do not know what we are talking about.
For the record, we have long said that it is very easy to solve the problems of the British in Arboleas, with the political will, locally.
This is also precisely the view held by a very experienced local politician in Arboleas who will be standing for Mayor next May, on a joint Spanish/British list.
Are we both wrong?

[tomtom]

i suppose it depends how much you want what you believe is yours.Joininggroups and letting others do,is not quite the same as fighting for your own corner.I still ask what has any group actually acheived,some have been going for many years now.If you want justice it takes time and alot of commitment.Anyone can comment on sites like these,but lets be honest it doesn't really achieve much.you need to be threatening townhalls,architects with court action,harrassing your mayor,positive direct action.Don't let people tell you that if you vote in expats to office things will change,mostare only in it for their own political gain.Boycott local businesses that have been directly or indirectly involved with this sham,butdon't keep living there and supporting the very peolpe who have put you in this situation.UP THE REVOLUTION

[andie]

the problem is  :tiphat:

we can all dwell on the short comings,after the event and spend years discusing it as has already happend,but at some point people are going to have to move the game  legally forward as one.

its a liitle bit like having a tooth pulled,eventually the pain becomes to great and remadys need to be sort more urgently.

folks have been quite happy to be advised by a few good harted pensioners,as long as i dosent envolve any effort on thair owne part,however if your not in it for the 10 to 15 year long hall thing,s will need to change even with your  newly elected councilours .

S   :tiphat:

[digifidd]

No that is true Tomtom, but no one expected the dream of buying to be illusory and bring a nightmare instead.  That is something that has been driven mostly by Spanish greed and corruption not by Brit eagerness to buy.

[tomtom]

And likewise no body forced the expats to come and buy their land or houses.UP THE REVOLUTION

[digifidd]

My heart bleeds for the Spanish...not!  They want all the benefits of having expats within their community, ie money, without having the expats themselves here. 

True, some Brits are undesirable and do not give a good account of themselves, but others are quite happy to live quietly, learn the language and integrate.  Not all Brits are lager louts or brash lushes.

Also no one forced the Spanish to sell their land or houses to the Brits.  Some of them managed that all by themselves.  Greed took over from common sense and the need to consider the long term implications of this strategy.

They have only got themselves to blame imo.

[tomtom]

Janad,when you say the brits brught financial wealth and that Albox etc would still be struggling without it,i can tell you 10/15 years ago it was a good place to live,money not being the driving force.A great community spirit and very easy going.About the only thing the brits brought was short sightedness,the thought of getting something cheap,following some TV show extolling its virtues,really the only real thing the brits brought was Trouble.Some not many made large sums of money,but then who doesn't.UP THE REVOLUTION

[Janad20]

Somehow if only I know how we need to show that instead of asking for demolition and compensation to change their laws because as far as I know Albox town hall doesnt have enough surplus cash to pay off one house let alone thousands!!

Clare, you have hit the nail on the head, only I would take it a little further.

The Spanish socialist government have known about this situation for years and decided to do nothing to change it.
How simple would it be to draw a line and legalize ALL the properties affected, show the world that they acknowledge the corruption that has been allowed to happen, apologies to all those people, whose lives have been ruined, and turn their country's finances around by promoting Spain and all that it offers in a good light.

But will it happen? Of course not because they never did give a S..T  and never will give a S..T about anyone except themselves, They are a shortsighted bunch of W.....S who only just fall short of being dictators. They have spent over 30 years in power and now preside over a country where human rights count for nothing as long as they (the government) follow the letter of the law. The law appertaing to property rights is morally, legally and humanely wrong as any right minded person would agree. Even holding the presidency of the EU, changed nothing, because MR BEAN doesn't care about our problems. He does not or will not realize that if we were all able to pack up and leave, then the vast majority of Expats, disillusioned, angry and downright fed up being treated like this, would run as fast as our legs would carry us, but of course we can't and he knows it.

Now a situation exists where there is insufficient funds to legalize these properties so their answer is to soak those poor unfortunates yet again. Why don't they go after the corruptors? Simple!! Most of them were the corruptors. The Spanish people lived under the Franco Regime, not allowed to voice an opinion, let alone protest at what was going on and now we Expats  are being treated the same way, even though without us, and the financial wealth we brought with us,  places like Albox and Arboleas would still be struggling to exist, never mind prosper. When you live under circumstances where the Central Government, Local Government, and Local Mayors, turn a blind eye for backhanders, is it any wonder why every other bu..er does the same.

I am sorry to say it, but I believe that the situation will take years, if not decades to resolve itself, if it ever does. That is not to say that we stand about and do nothing. Of course not, but while the powers to be, persist in pursuing their present attitudes towards the problem, more and more of us will regret the decision we took to live here.

[blueboy]

I don't see anything brave about putting your hands up and admitting to being part of such a scam, as Mario was.
In admitting wrong doing, a person is usually given a lighter penalty and I think it's already going to plan.
Remember we are talking about a lawyer here, not a cute little boy, who's been naughty.
I agree with digifidd and !I aint gonna touch em with a barge pole!
Mario, what are you doing about putting things right? make a name for yourself, here's a chance to become the most respected (and richest) lawyer in town and good luck to you, if you do. :tiphat: 

[digifidd]

Well, I'm not a great fan of local (Albox) lawyers but I have to admire Mario's guts.  To come onto a public forum and admit that he followed orders and was part of the illegal build problem was a brave thing to do.

I don't condone what he did but I can understand how he came to make a poor judgement, being new to the job, eager to please the boss, etc.

He voted with his feet, which is a good sign and hopefully he won't be making those same mistakes again.

Yes, this doesn't help GTG or those of us who were given similarly bad advice by 'experienced' lawyers who should have known better and didnot fulfil their legal duties.  Those senior practitioners should be reprimanded by their 'colleges' and barred from practice, however experience tells me that this will never happen.  Equally, inexperienced trainee solicitors should not be allowed to get their hands on the 'hard' cases without adequate, independent supervision.  In house training is only as good as the people doing the training and if a conscience or moral responsibility is lacking in the trainer, then the training will be flawed.

For me personally, I will never use another local lawyer no matter how contrite, but Mario's gesture gives some small crumb of comfort that there may be honest legal professionals out there.  Sadly, I feel that they are a minority.

[Lynne]

Rozlin - we're the same town hall as you are and we battled for ages to get them to agree to having our water meter connected so that we could pay our way.  The meter was there when our house was built but not connected.  Finally, about 6 months ago, they got fed up of my husband disturbing their peace again and gave in.  Pepe came and connected the meter, made a right mess of things, told us we had to buy the cover ourselves and went - took him all of 10 minutes. 

[jabba the cat]

i know, we know and they know whats happened but will they put it right no of cause not because here in Spain it can takes years to come to court and its very expensive so they just play games with peoples lives and investments.
People here haven't paid Basura,IBI for several years where in the real world would that be allowed to happen 100s of thousands Euros gone due to the fact they are not collected because you are illegal .or you need this licence or you need that Licence as some one said the right hand dosnt know what the left hand is doing.
We have a situation on our development same as every where i suppose where our water pipes comes out the ground to a metre box and is 4""  away from the water pipe thats goes to the house Galasa could connect a metre,the job time 10 mins they get paid for connection and for water uesd and if we never become legal and God forbid it knocked down will it affect Galasa of course not they just disconnect it simple really well you would think, same as the electricity.
If people were to have water and electricity that would a least allow people to get on with life and take a bit of pressure off the Ayuntamiento
bit too simple really i suppose.  :head

[blueboy]

I will only believe in their apologies when they are a bit more contrite about it.
If I were to knock somebody over I would pick them up.
Whatever I did wrong I would try to put right.
If all the politicians, lawyers, agents, builders, said a very heartfelt !sorry! would that make it all ok?
!Fools, firemen and first trippers! comes to mind. :tiphat:

[Queen Clare Shirley]

its the same as business your boss says you have to do this, you are unhappy to do so but its your job so you do it, you decided you´re not happy you leave.

I have heard similar stories about the lawyers office opposite a garage and I see the problems it has caused.

Looking at the whole picture I truly believe that there are lawyers and builders who thought that they could do the same as they had always done and continued that way and then the Junta came along and laws that had worked for years decided to change them. Now I dont deny that there are some corrupt and conman out there. I also know that there are some big building companies who changed their name to continue with their illegal properties.

Somehow if only I know how we need to show that instead of asking for demolition and compensation to change their laws because as far as I know Albox town hall doesnt have enough surplus cash to pay off one house let alone thousands!!

Clare

[jabba the cat]

Blueboy
thanks but its not you who should apologize its all the people involved from the Mayor ,solicitors, builders.Spanish land sellers all in this great Ponzi scheme and now they have been found out their like headless chickens now passing the book to anyone left to accept the blame.Could that be the Brits/ :head
Maybe Mario could be the first of many to say sorry but i wont hold my breath.

[Forever English]

Not being funny, but I would have thought that a law firm who has an unqualified solicitor would have kept an eye on all these things so that these mistakes did not happen, or not let them act for purchasing clients.
It´s nice to see that at least one solicitor has the courage to apologise.

[blueboy]

Sorry jabba


                             AND JABBA THE CAT. :tiphat:

[jabba the cat]

Still dosnt help me or the thousands more stuck here not knowing if we will get our paper work after what he has said any where else the Police would be allover the case,but hey this is Spain.manaya.manaya and thats the  problem as been and always will be.
Blueboy yes the victim GTG has been forgotten along with me and thousands more in the area. :head

[blueboy]

Nobody wants to hang the tea boy, it was his supervisors fault (if he had one) Mind you he was a very mature tea boy. In most countrys the driver on a bank robbery is just as guilty.
A bit more naming and shaming please, I'm sure there's more than one illegal house out there and not all ok'd by the sweeper upper.
Someone is being forgotten here,   THE VICTIM, GTG :tiphat:

[AndyH]

I have to respect a lawyer who publicly acknowledges errors.

That is very rare indeed.

Andy

[andie]

Just look for the huge advert hoarding as you come in to Albox offering to "upgrade your building to a legal status" or words to that effect, note the wording!!!!!

There are thousands and thousands of people in the same boat as GTG all over Spain, it is not an excuse or to detract from your problems GTG but we have to remember that back in the early years of 2000 to 2003 things were VERY different culturally and legally all over Spain and foreign money was welcomed with open arms, the spanish are not the greatest at thinking ahead or forward planning so no one foresaw the disaster looming as a result of so many houses built so quickly without infra structure and using out of date paper work routes.  The Administration are responsible far more than any one individual lawyer and Mario is to be commended for his honesty on here.  

in a nut shell thats a good overveiw.  
I think the" Administration s "  ( sp &eu )were certainly  guilty of sat outside the bank with the" motor running " hence my veiw wont change ALL  houses need to be legalised at national & provincal level,WITHOUT cost to the inocent buyer or full state compensation,UP FRONT in full.

S

[Saffi]

Just look for the huge advert hoarding as you come in to Albox offering to "upgrade your building to a legal status" or words to that effect, note the wording!!!!!

There are thousands and thousands of people in the same boat as GTG all over Spain, it is not an excuse or to detract from your problems GTG but we have to remember that back in the early years of 2000 to 2003 things were VERY different culturally and legally all over Spain and foreign money was welcomed with open arms, the spanish are not the greatest at thinking ahead or forward planning so no one foresaw the disaster looming as a result of so many houses built so quickly without infra structure and using out of date paper work routes.  The Administration are responsible far more than any one individual lawyer and Mario is to be commended for his honesty on here.   

[tomtom]

Nice reply Mario,but really there is no excuse.If you were such a naive trainee,why were you given the task of doing the paperwork on an important job that cost somebody dearly.Surely you were not qualified to be giving the advice you did.maybe they should sue you because under your own admission you were NOT qualified to be doing the job.UP THE REVOLUTION.

[blueboy]

It is unfair to ask Mario that. GTG should be the ones to name the firm. It seems to that Mario was used as a scapegoat and has shown courage in coming on and admitting he made a mistake, saw that the firm were dealing in illegal builds and left them.  It has conviced me to use him once I decide to return to Spain. If he is still working there in the future.  ;D ;D

So I suppose that makes it all ok then, Mario is a hero and sod GTG with his bent property.
Maybe Mario should have had the forsight to warn his affected clients that dodgy dealings were going down.
And still people are protecting the unnamed guilty law firm, unfair, indeed. :head :tiphat:

[Queen Clare Shirley]

Mario worked at A well known lawyers situated on the main road near a place where you fill ya car up

[andie]

To be fair to everybody  :tiphat:

the spanish state and the EU new that this" gray building boom  " was going on all over spain,and now we are ALL  sufering the concequences,if you talk to lawyers thay will tell you thay were TOLD / pressured to get the job done ,as ALL  the permisions would be sorted  for completion ,and  now the permisions have been pulled.

if you talk candidly to the top lawyers off the record thay will tell you that even thay dont know whats legal anymore because the system is in such a state.

i dont no Mario,or GTG  but what i do know,is the banks are over comitted,and if somebody dosent get  a grip soon , stop ****ing around,and roll some hab,certs pgou,s and mains services ,then the full property investment of spain is going to get pulled down,taking ALL  us EU  citzs with it.

S  

[iuvlambos]

It is unfair to ask Mario that. GTG should be the ones to name the firm. It seems to that Mario was used as a scapegoat and has shown courage in coming on and admitting he made a mistake, saw that the firm were dealing in illegal builds and left them.  It has conviced me to use him once I decide to return to Spain. If he is still working there in the future.  ;D ;D

[blueboy]

Might be a good idea to make good the wrong you did to GTG now that you are a qualified lawyer and try to make a good name for yourself.
What was the name of the law firm you worked for at the time GTG was shafted? :tiphat:

[Mario Solicitor]

Dear friends:

I am not here to fight. I accept what GTG is saying. Now I am 30 years old. GTG is speaking about 2005. In 2005, only one year after I finished my studies I was training with a solicitor´s office in Albox. I don´t want to blame anyone apart of me, but I think that I have to explain what happened because it is affecting me directly.
I had not any experience by this time. I was training without salary (I was going to work everyday without social security). I didn´t take any decission. I just obey orders and I did what they said that I had to do, because I though that everything was ok, because they were the solicitors with experience. I accept that probably I gave a very bad advice with negative consecuences to GTG, but I was never concious of this. I don´t know if they gave me this case to wash their hands. I was very unhappy working there, and they were getting very bad reputation for what I left them in 2006. I´m deeply regret of being working or training there for some years. Now, 5 years later, I was in Almería training hard and properly for some months and I was registered as a qualified lawyer only in February 2009.
I accept what I probably did. We cannot erase the past. I am really sorry. But everybody has to understand that if I did something wrong, I didn´t want to do it and I was unconscious.

[GTG]

Mario - we take it you are not the "Mario" then that we have emails from concerning our property purchased in September 2005 in La Vina, plot 12?

[jabba the cat]

Exactly Blueboy
we used 2 different solicitors a few years ago to purchase a property i wasn't  happy with one of them so we changed our mind both saying what the builder kept saying no problems escrituras to follow Mayana Manyana guess what the villa was sold not to me but still no paperwork.
Welcome to Arboleas.

[blueboy]

A good solicitor would never proceed with a purchase if there were any impending difficulties and would always advise not to continue :tiphat:

[AndyH]

Would you mind explaining your answer, as it is entirely unclear if you are saying:

1) That you think the house is NOT illegal?

or

2) That you are saying that you DID advise them that there WERE problems?

Andy

[Mario Solicitor]

Our house in Arboleas is illegal, and we used Mario, who never once advised us that we would have any problem!

I do not think so!
Good luck for the future :tiphat: