Looking at Villa in Arboleas - Help needed

[Danno]

For magpie49, Explorer's recent post is very valid.  

Roger's post says that 90% of the houses in Arboleas are on Urban land,  I'm only a country boy, but that means 10% are on rustic land and therefore, at this stage, they are illegal.  This is in conflict with Roger's statement that there is 'no problems legally with any houses in Arboleas'.  (Of course, PSOE speak is 'irregular', not 'illegal' - the result is the same!)

That the land these houses are on is to become urbanisable in a few months is a very good thing, although a Spanish 'few months' can be very elastic.

Titch made the valid point that there are unquantified expenses to come for those who are currently in houses on rustic land, when the land is made urbanisable.

For magpie49, the best advice has to be from those urging him to check, and check again.  If the house he wants is on rustic land now, wait until the new plans have been approved by the Junta before committing, and find out what other expenses might come his way.  The most important thing?  Get an out of town lawyer and get the questions asked.  A Spanish lawyer may not answer questions, you haven't asked!  

Personally, I would agree with those advising magpie49 rents until he/she can see the wood for the trees.

Danno

[sjm]

Is this a childrens' forum?

[andie]

nice ti see where all as one again ! ,onwards and upwards mi dears ! :rofl: S


PS Jonny,im still be hind this sette  :o,and i aint coming owt till tuesday at the earlyest  :alien:

[chelseaphil]

I have not posted anything misleading.

But you have posted misleading information

The expiry date on the demolition notices is 9th April, at least on the one I have seen.

Quite what that means I do not know.

You either did not see the document or you do not understand Spanish or you did not bother to get it translated. You just saw a date and assumed that the 9th April was a demolition date. Which is also apparent others have done.

As seen here from a direct extract from the document.

Reference to a Law issued in 1976 as quoted here:

"Refundido de la ley del Regimen del suelo y ordenacion urbana, aprobado por real decreto 1346/1976 de 9 abril"

[judi bk]

This is posted by Judi as Judi not as a moderator

Explorer of course never contradicts himself  :whistle:

Re: What did you do for a job January 22, 2010"I worked for a government agency after leaving the forces, cant reveal any more I'm afraid"

Re: THAIR AFTER YER FUEL ALLOWANCE NOW MI DEARS ! 22 February
"Where does all the UK money go: to pay for wars on two fronts, and to pay the gold plated pensions of those who worked for the state."

[explorer]

On February 23rd, Roger wrote:

I will only be at the Help Desk for the early part tomorrow, but the other volunteers will help you.
In Las Requenas there are a lot of houses on Rustic land, BUT not all.
So we need to know exactly where the house is.
We have aerial maps so you can locate the house.
If the house has an escritura it SHOULD be on urban land. This does strangely not apply everywhere, but I am not aware of any dodgy escrituras in Las Requenas.
Does it have mains water and electric.
If so it is almost certainly Urban, because it would probably have needed a certificate of first occupation, which should not have been issued on rustic land.

Of course there have been a lot of exceptions.

If all this worries you, don't.
The rustic houses in Las Requenas are due to be urbanised very shortly.
As for coming to live in Arboleas.
I'm biased.
You would be stupid not to.


On February 25th, Roger wrote:

We can check out the property at the Help Desk.
Talk to the neighbours. They will know if there is a problem (eg temporary water supply).

As for the advice not to buy in present uncertain times.
Renting is a reasonable option until yiou decide this is where you want to live.
But do not be put off by the stories of gloom about the housing situation.
90% of the houses in Arboleas are totally legal and on urban land.

As for Explorer.
You are entitled to your opinion , even though I rarely agree.
But I think it is fair for people to know who you are. Where do you live.
In Arboleas? In Spain?
Opinions are only as informed as the people giving them.

On 26 February, Roger wrote:

¨There are no problems legally with any houses in Arboleas.´¨
If anyone has any contrary facts please let me know.
facts, not rumours.

[Saffi]

^{at the end of the day, when you put your trust in professionals and expect them to be straight up and honest with you and they are not to the extent that you risk losing your home, savings, sanity and health, then I think those people have a right to be disgruntled with a service that they have not received but paid for and still are paying for!!}

100% agree but life does not work like that, it took me a long time to get there but the bottom line is none of us have any real protection against those who deliberately set out to defraud or scam us and that was a huge shock for me to realise that people could do that to fellow man (and often british as well) ......sadly I am not religious or I would be comforted by thoughts of them burning in hell....

I just don´t see why some questions are repeatedly asked on here as often they are already answered or, as has already been said SO many times,there is no one answer and probably not even 10, it is individual circumstances, some have common bases, some share common ground, some sadly had the same developer, some had no developer in legal terms...... but pretty much all have special circumstances and thus there will be a different outcome.  Therefore how much use is it to answer very general questions? 

As for Roger my sense, and it is only a sense, is that he reports what he can about other areas in the hope it will help some people.......

[digifidd]

Just to go back to something you said Phil:

Digifidd, the trouble is without any input from the AUAN there is no debate.  It is one sided.  Roger offers answers then gets slaughtered for answering. Because people refuse to believe him. In which case perhaps these people that refuse to believe will come forward and prove him wrong.  Ah, but no one that is a member of the AUAN is allowed to release information are they? What information has the AUAN provided in the open domain - nothing.

There is always debate on here if it is allowed, but a lot of free thinking people are shouted down and put off by the politicos on here.

The AUAN don't post on here for good reason.  They would be asked to divulge information that their members have paid for (you already know my view on this via PM) and then they would be lambasted for not being more open.  However, when Roger chooses to post on behalf of the help desk, he is doing so as this service, whilst not being paid for by the town hall, is supported by the town hall in some form and so the information Roger gains is by virtue of a public body and paid for out of the public purse.  This information should be made available to everyone.

These are different entities and have to be treated as such.  One is political and the other is not, one is public, the other is not.

Roger doesn't always get slaughtered for answering, but he needs to be more circumspect in his answers if he doesn't want to be questioned further - his credibility as a reliable source depends not just on what he says but how he says it.  This is not to say his work is without merit or effort, it undoubtedly is, but if he sets himself up as someone who knows lots, he has to be able to justify what he says.

The AUAN has issued so many more press statements and newsletters in the last year (as evidenced on the forum section specifically for this type of thing) and so it can't be accused of being a secret society that doesn't tell people anything.  If people want more specific information, it needs to be paid for.  This level of specialised information and detail is very expensive.  Why should it be released to people who don't want to support the organisation but want all the benefits?

[digifidd]

A lot of us would say that we should not have overridden our caution buttons, as you put it.  But at the end of the day, when you put your trust in professionals and expect them to be straight up and honest with you and they are not to the extent that you risk losing your home, savings, sanity and health, then I think those people have a right to be disgruntled with a service that they have not received but paid for and still are paying for!!

I just don't like the way pettiness is played out on the forum. If someone has a personal gripe, take it to a personal message level.

If there is a question of clarifying information that is put on here for everyone's benefit, then I can't see a problem with asking.  The frustration is not getting answers back.

Rumours start as something is heard that is a concern, it is aired and either proven or not, that is the problem with living in a politically active area. It is also nature to air a concern, as one shared is reassuring, is it not?

[Saffi]

It seems we read different posts......this forum is full of people lumping Arboleas and Albox together...also people who take no responsibility for their own choices....I made mistakes when I came here, costly ones through trusting people I should not have trusted. I had to accept some responsibility for choosing to over-ride my caution button, it was not a insignificant sum of money and means I cannot be retired but have to work for many years now to recoup, if I ever can, not an illegal property no but still something that cost me tens of thousands.  I learned from this but so many others on here just seem to repeat the same thing and seem determined to put 100% of the blame out there......muddle up facts with rumour and all sorts and it becomes a minefield and also very very boring to hear the same old drum again and read the same old words and see irritating little symbols leaping all over the place time and time again, instead of a reasoned factual balanced discussion.  The most vociferous posters are the greatest rumour mongers......

[digifidd]

I agree Saffi, there is no one solution to the illegal housing situation as there are many different scenarios.  Each area seems to have numerous issues.

I don't see that there is anything wrong in people questioning those who are saying that in the know, it is the lack of response that is equally frustrating.  Crikey, last week Roger was rubbishing figures obtained from the Junta which does not do much for his credibility imo. 

I don't know if Explorer is an expert, I can only ever speak from my own experiences and from what I have learnt in the intervening years between buying a property and now.

I am an AUAN member and do not purport to know about everything that is going on in the area (I can't live there full-time), yet I do find it disturbing that someone who claims to be in the know but is not, by his own admission, either elected into position nor is employed by the Arboleas Council, is privy to so much information and detail, not just for what is happening in Arboleas but also in Albox - how is that possible?

Unfortunately, Roger rather carelessly drops little bits of information into his posts and when he is picked up on these, all hell breaks loose as if there is some kind of campaign against him.  There is not, but he does not help his cause by vacillating between defensively aggressive replies and smoothly dismissive ones.  He needs to be more careful himself what he posts and how he is posting.  I perceive some of his posts as rather arrogant, but that could just be the way I am reading them as much as his phraseology.

Everyone has a responsibility to write...well, responsibly!

This thread started as a simple request regarding possibly buying in the Arboleas area and people have given their views about what to be cautious about.  Why does it always have to end up as an AUAN vs Arboleas Help Desk thing?  Paranoia abounds on this forum.

We have read many times that there are personal issues between some people in Arboleas and the old AUAN committee, but no one is achieving anything with this sniping - leave these issues where they should be, in the past!  Move on, there are greater issues at stake in the area right now and in the future.

We are all entitled to our personal opinions on the area and how it is developing; each is coloured by our own experiences and perspective.   But please stop putting down a private organisation that is trying to help sort out the mess without getting politically bogged down or deflected from their aim.   

I post on here as an individual and not as a member of an organisation, but yet again, I am seriously considering withdrawing any support for this forum AGAIN - it is way too political for my tastes and getting little cliques, some of which are rather vicious imo.  

[jonnybikes]

Now hold on here !!!

Ah, but no one that is a member of the AUAN is allowed to release information are they? What information has the AUAN provided in the open domain - nothing

Is the AUAN a secret society ????
Do they have secret handshakes ????
Do they roll their left trouser leg up ????

Quick Steve, get behind that settee

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[blueboy]

¨There are no problems legally with any houses in Arboleas.´¨
If anyone has any contrary facts please let me know.
facts, not rumours.

Thats what we want to hear Roger, so it's safe to buy anywhere in the Arboleas area because nobody own's an illegal property there.
What on earth has all the fuss been in aid of all this time?

P.S. I must learn how to do this posting right.

[jonnybikes]

Magpie49

See what I mean

Rent and relax

Best wishes for the future
Jon

[andie]

Steve, the trouble is for some reason when Roger does answer he is not believed. What does he have to do - reproduce everything in black and white?

that would more or less sort the job for the bennifit of all,however i can see your point.  S  :tiphat:

[chelseaphil]

Steve, the trouble is for some reason when Roger does answer he is not believed. What does he have to do - reproduce everything in black and white?  If that is the case and people are genuinely wanting to know the answers I suggest, as he has done, that they go along to the Help desk in person. Because according to you that is the only way he will be believed. 

Now I'm off to watch the rugby. :)

[andie]

 "So basically, there is absolutely no point in Roger or anyone else on the Help Desk posting any answers because no one will believe them anyway."

wich is exaxtly my point ,to give the job creadability ,have prima facia supplyed information,legally translated,stamped,and scanned in,so as all forum readers can draw thair owne conclusions,with acurate,legally confirmed information.

as i have stated before on here thairs a lot of educated proven uk acheivers read this forum and draw conclusions from it,i wouldent think most of them would accept peoples" lay version "of events in thair owne pertucular feild in the uk,so why are thay expected to through this medium.

most of us have a lot of respect for Roger however this fact alone should not stop us asking questions of him if he decides to enter the debate at all levels as he has done.after all where not talking abought the "town hall ordering a park bench,"were talking abought millions of euro,s in lost and upto now irritrevable investment euro,s and peoples health and genrel wellbeing.

again only my veiw and of course no offence intended  :tiphat:

[Saffi]

Digi I have seen Explorer state that it is wrong to say the majority of houses in Arboleas are without (legalilty) problems.......yet Roger, who IS in a position to know has stated this is totally wrong and inaccurate.  How clear can that be?  
Arboleas IS different to Albox as building started there years before the boom around Albox, it was THE place to buy once.......and the Town Hall was a lot more oraganised.  

My questions to Explorer rather stem from frustration that he speaks as an informed expert yet never reveals his sources or says how many years he has lived here, how he knows X, Y and Z etc etc yet is adamant he is right.  So it seems its ok to question everyone else but not to reveal where your information comes from?

I agree with Phil´s post ......its a good summary of what goes on, Albox has different problems to Arboleas, you cannot lump everything in together and in the same way there is no one solution to all the illegal houses......or other issues.

[Roger]

First of all, I am not a member of Arboleas Council.
I do not work for Arboleas Council.
I receive no reward finacial or otherwise, for the work I do.
Nor do any other members of the Help Desk in Arboleas.

As for the information.
Paying IBI and catastral Registration is un related to legality.
It's a fact. but of course some people do wish to disagree with something they do not like.
If you are a member of the AUAN why not ask your expensive lawyer to confirm this.

If you do not live in Arboleas (as in the case of Explorer) go to your own Town Hall to get the answer.

Residents of Arboleas know the facts regarding Arboleas.
We publish them on our web site arboleasnow.com
We do not make up this information.
Everyone in Arboleas know what is happening about Catastral revision.
They can either read it on our web site, or they can come in to our Help Desk.
Also many hundreds of Arboleas residents will have attended the many public meetings we have organised with the Mayor, when they will have been able to ask these questions directly and received direct answers.

Or perhaps your believe the Arboleas Mayor, Angel, repeated lied in front of hundreds of his voters.

[chelseaphil]

Explorer, Steve and others continually exhort the great work being undertaken by the AUAN.  ALL the questions explorer asks SHOULD be available to him via the AUAN. So why is he continually asking these questions on here?  Why, if the AUAN know the answers and others are asking the same question do they not tell everyone those answers and put an end to all this bickering?

Roger, when he does answer a question gets told he is lying or asked to prove it. Is it no wonder that he does not answer the questions.  Yet when those doing the accusing are asked to prove he is lying they duck out of it. So basically, there is absolutely no point in Roger or anyone else on the Help Desk posting any answers because no one will believe them anyway.

Digifidd, the trouble is without any input from the AUAN there is no debate.  It is one sided.  Roger offers answers then gets slaughtered for answering. Because people refuse to believe him. In which case perhaps these people that refuse to believe will come forward and prove him wrong.  Ah, but no one that is a member of the AUAN is allowed to release information are they? What information has the AUAN provided in the open domain - nothing.

Because explorer and others are not permitted to pass on the information that he must already have as an AUAN member.  Means they are only posting the questions on here for one reason, to antagonise others.

Unless of course the AUAN do not have any of the answers he has posted a question about. In which case I would be asking why not?

[digifidd]

Who is rubbishing Arboleas?  There is nothing wrong with asking pertinant questions that expect answers.  Arboleas seems to be in a bubble where the illegal building situation hasn't affected it, at least that is the information being offered, or the town hall has somehow managed to miraculously sort it all so everyone is in Arboleas happyland.

There is nothing wrong with people not taking this information at face value because to be honest, it does seem a bit incredible, given the big, big issues in neighbouring towns.

Some people are more cynical about these things than others - it does not make their view any less relevant.

Unfortunately, lots of questions get ignored or deflected on this forum and I'm not the only one who has noticed.

I have to say Saffi, recently you had a right go at Explorer about where he lived, did he have an illegal house, why wouldn't he give more information?  He answered those questions that were relevant within a couple of posts, i.e he had unfortunately and unwittingly purchased an illegal house near Albox, where he lives.  However, this wasn't sufficient for you and you harangued him mercilessly and unnecessarily IMO.

So Explorer asks difficult questions (and I don't always agree with all the things he says or the way he says them) but a lot of people in the area are living under difficult circumstances, with their life savings (homes) and health at risk.  It is a shame that more people don't ask lots of questions and then we might not get so much political bulls**t posted on here.

No one has said to Magpie49, don't go to Arboleas and try living there.  They are advising them to rent first and telling them why it is a good idea to do so, rather than buy.  Nothing wrong with that advice.  The illegal house situation is not something that can be brushed under the carpet or dismissed as a mere trifle with political blase or arrogance, it needs to be addressed head on and with honesty.  The paperwork is not all there, the PGOU's have not been ratified yet, land not segregated, Catastral ref's not sorted - these are major concerns to anyone considering buying in the area and house buying in this area is a decision not to be taken lightly, especially in this economic climate.

It is the line "the paperwork is in the pipeline and will follow shortly" is what got a lot of people into this illegal house mess as they believed the people who were telling them this.

[andie]

"Digi - I did say partly for that very reason, and I have never met Roger and don´t even know his surname!!!!!  I just think we need to be responsible and offer balanced views and Explorer, and Steve to some extent,  never allow that to happen. "

when our possible feture brit councilors start  scanning and posting legally translated and stamped doc,s to support thair claims ,its going to be a lot better for us all, so as we can indeed make / draw our owne conclusions to a piticular set of circumctances ,plus it will also give them a degree of credability as well, wich from were im sat appears to be sadly lacking at the moment.

S  :wave  :tiphat:

[andie]

another point worth a mention,while were" Mr EX banging ",is that if more people got off thair backsides, and asked questions on here rather than leaving it to a few,it would not be the same folks bannging on all the time with the genuine qusetions as it is now.

no offence intended .

S  :wave  :tiphat:

[explorer]

Saafi, this diatribe just deflects from the questions asked.

Do you not wonder why the questions are never answered?

This is a public forum, surely the answers can be published here.

Why such vitriole whenever valid questions are asked. Who is afraid of the answers?

[sjm]

I think Eplorer is speaking and asking questions on behalf of very many concerned houseowners, why shouldn't he be allowed to do that without the animosity on here?

[Saffi]

Explorer - Why do you always rubbish everything other than your own views then?  Why do you always sound so black and white when you now admit you don´t know all the answers (boy I´m glad we have that in writing!)? You only need to look at the demolition orders post to see inaccuracies spread by you which do not help anyone and only cause alarm, its nothing to do with politics for me, its to do with FACTS and TRANSPARENCY which you demand from others yet do not offer yourself.

I am quite sure Roger answers loads of questions on the Help Dek, why not ask him there instead of seeking to rubbish and malign him on here, I think YOU are the politician actually far more than anyone else.........full of twisted spin and no accurate facts.  :yawn: :yawn:

Look at prices on property websites or in the newspapers Steve/Andie......I deal in facts which can be verified not hyperbole. Just because any one individual is a victim of this it does not give them the right to rubbish an entire town.........

Digi - I did say partly for that very reason, and I have never met Roger and don´t even know his surname!!!!!  I just think we need to be responsible and offer balanced views and Explorer, and Steve to some extent,  never allow that to happen.

[digifidd]

I'm inclined to agree with Steve.  If Roger is such a seasoned political campaigner, he should be used to questions being asked and answers expected from him.  I find repeatedly on this forum that when Roger posts and someone responds to something he has said, this wall (of supporters or may be friends) comes up to protect him - somewhat unnecessarily IMO.  Perhaps, he should be a bit more careful how he phrases things in order to avoid misunderstandings.

Then these 'protectors' automatically say, go to the AUAN for the questions and ask them - why is there this knee jerk reaction everytime a known member of the AUAN posts?  

As well as the AUAN providing information, why should people not be able to look for information from other sources?  If those sources don't stand up to questioning, so what? It is then up to the readers to make what they will of the exchange.  This forum is about debate, so let people debate.  If their arguments or counter arguments are good enough, they should stand up on their own merits.  Suppressing or ignoring the points raised does not help anyone and surely that is the aim.

A lot of people have had experience of buying properties in the area, both good and bad.  Both sides need to be adequately represented so that someone new to the area who is requesting information, advice etc can get a balanced view.  

P.s Saffi, I don't think even Explorer singlehandedly has managed to cause a world wide recession whereby all house prices have fallen by a massive amount.  In addition, if the authorities hadn't allowed the wholesale building of illegal houses (fact not rumour) over the last 5 to 10 years, then people would be happy to buy with confidence in this area. Unfortunately, their homegrown brand of corruption has caught up with them and the locals who had exploited the situation, so that they are now reaping what they have sown.

[andie]

Explorer, thanks partly to a lot of rumours spread by people like you the price of an average villa in Arbleas has dropped in value to closer to 170000 not 200000 but then facts would confuse a good rant wouldn´t they?  

O for Fizz sake Saffi ,wind it in please,  :wave people like us and Explorer are victims, :head :head

Explorer wasent the one who knocked the Priors house down or issued the x mass demoltion notice,es.

and if you are connected to the propety game,you need to re think you valuation,s for the whole area,because you appear to be well out of touch judeing by the prices you have supplied,try 275k,down to 135k or 310k down to 150k FACT !that is assuming thairs any intrest at all !! :head
no offence intended !
S  :wave  :tiphat:

[explorer]

There always seems to be an element of panic when I ask questions? Are you afraid of the answers.

It is ridiculous to suggest that I know the answers already. If I did, believe me, I would be publishing them.

There appears to be some cliquey rule that the political element on this forum must not be asked questions. Why not? What on earth is being stirred up by asking questions? Is the possibility that the answers would be stirring it up, and is that why the questions cannot be answered?

And what the hell has it got to do with the AUAN. Roger is on the Arboleas Council, he runs a helpdesk, but he won't answer questions?

Has the world gone mad?

[Saffi]

Explorer, thanks partly to a lot of rumours spread by people like you the price of an average villa in Arbleas has dropped in value to closer to 170000 not 200000 but then facts would confuse a good rant wouldn´t they?  

[Saffi]

Explorer, my guess is you are retired and have adopted this as your raison d´etre, but it is becoming very tiresome as you, pretty much alone, refuse to be candid about who you are, how long you have lived here, your experience base, where you get your info from, and a load of other things that you would call a fudge if posted from anyone else  etc yet you claim constantly to be an expert now, imply you have greater knowledge than others.....and as Roger says you don´t seem to know the situation as well as you believe, as can be seen from loads of other posts on this forum paying IBI is irrelevant to legality.

You say you live in Albox so just why are you so determined to rubbish Arboleas and spread gossip, lies and misinformation?  To cause alarm or because of a personal grievance?

[ken]

Why is he pushing Roger for answers???

Probably because he is a sad old git without a Life.

262 inserts on the Forum in only 4 Months. SAD.

[andie]

Explorer, if you are a member of the AUAN ask them, because they also SHOULD have all the answers to your questions above. 

So why have you not asked them? 
Why do you insist on pushing Roger for the answers?
You must surely have them already? 
In which case why do you not post them on here?

Please stop stirring things on this forum.

"Why do you insist on pushing Roger for the answers? "

as i understand it Roger aledgadly has 30 ,years political experience,and is a brit member of our local psoe party and may or may not be standing in our local elections next year, shurley he is used to "punters  posing questions,"after all Explorer is only asking questions that a lot of people are already" mulling over".
where,s the problem in asking please ?
S  :tiphat:

[chelseaphil]

Explorer, if you are a member of the AUAN ask them, because they also SHOULD have all the answers to your questions above. 

So why have you not asked them? 
Why do you insist on pushing Roger for the answers?
You must surely have them already? 
In which case why do you not post them on here?

Please stop stirring things on this forum.

[explorer]

Perhaps someone more knowledgable than me can define legal. Many householders believe their houses to be legal. Some of those in Albox, and definitely the Priors, believed their houses to be legal.

If there are no problems with the legality of houses in Arboleas, are they paying IBI?

Sorry Roger, I assumed that you were more knowledgeable than me! Perhaps there is someone out there who knows the truth.

I have not posted anything misleading. Do legal houses pay IBI? Should legal houses pay IBI? Do illegal houses pay IBI? You are supposed to be the one who knows the answers to these questions.

What on earth is the matter with you? Why can't you answer any questions. You are behaving as if no one should ask any questions. Perhaps you find the answers unpalatable.

May I remind you that this topic was started by someone "Looking at a villa in Arboleas - Help needed". Presumably they want to spend around 200,000 euros of their own money, surely they should be entitled to the best advice possible.