Ilegal homes and denuncias

[flimflam]

It seems to me that no matter who you are, where you bought, how long you've been out here - your house can still be classed as
illegal.  After all  - this area seems to be a lawless place - with laws that are manipulated to suit the corrupt officials and town halls
and most of all the solicitors - who seem to be the most corrupt of all!!!
The answer seems to be - enjoy your home for as long as you can - and try not to let the ****** grind you down.
We should all be supporting the group who are trying to help the Priors.  They had been out here for years and followed the correct
proceedures AND been deemed as legal.  Look what happened to them!!!!!!!

[johnnymay]

I am sorry, am I opening a can of worms I was just hoping for some good advice which seems to be to speak to an out of town solicitor and is what I will do! I do feel that whatever happens I will have to pay taxes at the notary so I might as well pay first as last, I will try to keep the forum up to date with my progress. I thank you for all your comments and I will proceed with caution.

[digifidd]

I dont dispute your experiences at all Sheriff, but unfortunately the authorities seem to change or apply the property laws to suit themselves.  Sometimes retrospectively it would seem, to devastating effect.

So people who have been told that they are legal (at one moment in time) a few years later are suddenly illegal.  How is that possible or defensible?

This leads to confusion over how the laws should be applied and the insecurity that the Almanzora Valley feels now.

It's called moving the goal posts.

This is why I feel so sorry for the Priors, who did everything by the book, bought their land, got permissions, granted licenses and then were told by a "higher authority" than the local decision makers, that their licenses etc had been revoked and their luxury house has gone.

In addition, there has been historical  rule bending by builders/developers who have used the law to find ways of building houses on agricultural land, then using these loop holes to push the paperwork through.

Those days are gone, the authorities have wised up.  Unfortunately they are now penalising the unsuspecting mugs who've been duped into signing dodgy contracts, been told that if you have an escritura then everything is legal and told dont worry that is how things are done here in Spain.

Anyway, I think we have moved off the original point.  Speaking of which johnnymay - why is your house considered illegal?

[The Sheriff ILLIA.]

No problem Digifidd    - I sold Insurance for 25 years in the UK - I had worse said to me many a time.

Couple of points though  - we were lucky when we came out nearly 10 years ago  because the Solicitor we had gave me one piece of advice I never forgot which was -  do not buy a piece of land that has not got it's own escritura.  In those days as long as you owned the land you could build on it with no licences or permissions at all  as long as the building was under 2% of the land size, and no one could stop you from doing so.

So some people who do have escrituras for the land could legally register under the 4 year rule IF  they have a licence to build -  also I have see many peoples documents for their properties and I have yet to see one where the buyer has not been listed as the Promoter - it was a doge the builders use to cut down on the come backs.

[digifidd]

Can I stop grovelling now? :out

[digifidd]

My profuse and sincere apologies Sheriff, I obviously misinterpreted your post - I certainly did not mean to imply that your property is illegal.  I did not mean to offend and will be more careful in future when voicing my thoughts aloud.  I will edit off the offending sentence, it was a poor judgement due to tiredness and not engaging brain before typing!

You have got everything in order by the sounds of it and are as legal as you can possibly be. Your subsequent explanations of the process that you have been through and the back ground are comprehensive and informative.  I'm glad that you are in a secure place with this.  Many are not, due to the complexities of the legal system, the anomalies of process and differing interpretations of property law by developers/promotors, lawyers and town halls.

Unfortunately, if a person's property is already illegal, the 4 year rule wont necessarily make them legal.  This is the general point that I was trying to make. Upon further reflection on the matter, this statement could depend on the reasons for illegality in the first place, ie no permissions, licenses, wrong type of land.   Perhaps Johnny May could explain why his house is considered illegal.   Also by going this route, a person takes on the responsibilities of promotor - not something you want to do if you weren't one in the first place.  The implications of which, in Tasony's post,aren't good.

In my opinion, the people who have the final say on how legal MY property is, is the Junta de Andalucia in Seville (not the Almeria or Huercal Overa offices in whatever form, ie Catastral or Land Registry), nor the Albox Ayuntamiento who can so easily be overruled (if decided).
But I wont believe our property's legality until I see it, on paper from Seville (or in stone! - joke!)

However, I will read harder next time before typing  - sorry!

[The Sheriff ILLIA.]

Digifidd,    I'm sure if Moses came down from Mount Sineia  with  all your documents  carved into stone  you would argue that they were not legal.    I have not let my developer off the hook  - I was the developer  and as you know so much just  who exactly is it in your opinion  who declares your property legal  ?     I obtained permission to build out in the countryside but as we only have 23,500 sq mts we could not build a house, so we obtained a licence to build a Nave { we could have got permmission to build  5 at the time }  - this we could have registered when it was finished as a Nave  but then we would have had to wait 10 years before it could be changed into a house.    During the first two months of building - because we were seen to be building  I was visited by and  my plans were inspected by  The Local Police, The Guardia, The Junta of Andalucia,  Seprona,   all went on their way satisfied  that my permissions were OK.  When the porperty was finished  a Certificate of Antiquity was applied for  and as all the documents were in order this was issued - the house Registered in the Catastral { A department of the Junta } we registered to pay rates { Another department of the Junta } We have a Certificade o Expidiente { to say no Fines or Denuncias were issued during the build to registration } and we have a Certificate of Habitacion.      So who is there left apart from you to say we are illegal  We have been accepted as legal by everyone I can think of   apart from You !!!!!      please tell me where else I should go ??

[digifidd]

I thought that if someone bought into the 4 year rule, you took on the responsibilities/liabilities of a promotor.  (Apologies to Sheriff - see below). Anyway, just getting an escritura and license of habitation doesn't guarantee legality.  If the land is non-urbanizable, the permissions, licenses can be revoked - if there were any in the first place.  Plus just having an escritura does not mean that you are fully legal, despite what some people may tell you.

I also thought that it was no longer possible to use the 4 year rule, hence the rush by many people to process their houses it by 2nd July last year.  The authorities were closing down this loop-hole.  Our house was already built when we bought it so there is no way that we could be considered the promotor.  Not everybody with illegal houses bought off-plan.  We also have a registered escritura but are not legal.  There may be a denuncia on our property but we just haven't been told about it-yet!  One very close to us (same development) has been pictured on the Ecologistas en Accion website and was apparently denounced in 2006 - not that our neighbours are aware of it (as far as I know!).

If local solicitors are offering the 4 year Rule and receipt of an escritura as a total solution to a legality problem.....well, words fail me!

JohnnyMay, I would go with Tasony's original advice and get independent (well out of town) legal advice and dont go to notary or part with anymore cash until you are satisfied that your property is going to be 100% legal this way.  Believe me, the notary and Hacienda will take your fees and taxes regardless of your property's legality - we should know.

[Tasony]

Sheriff - if you bought the land and house from the developer as a package, then he is the promoter.  This is a very important distinction for liability purposes.  Many developers worded their contracts to ensure the buyer was classed as the promoter.  Our developer changed our contracts and removed the wording that named them as ´promoter´, we did not realise the meaning of this and our soicitor did not think it necessary to enlighten us !!!

[The Sheriff ILLIA.]

Tasony,    The moment you give a builder the go ahead to build a house for you - you are classed as the ' promoter '  - and as the promoter it is your responsiblity to ensure all the necessary documents - permission to build etc are  obtained - but as new people to Spain  no one was told this - that is why so many illegal houses got built.

Johnnymay  -  I have just done what you are thinking of doing - I did have permission to build but I altered the building - so it had to be registered after 4 years under the Certificado o Antiquedad - it was registered last year and I have just had my Certificado o Habitacion issued.    Your Solicitor should have checked by this stage if there are any denuncias in force,  I do not know how it effeects the issuing of your Escritura but I think it will stop the issuing of your Habitacion Certificate    I would personally want some concrete replies before paying for any more legal work.

[Tasony]

According to legal people we have consulted, the four year rule is interrupted if there are any proceedings against the house.

If you do go down the 4 year rule route, you then become the ´promoter´, and therefore responsible for building the house, so if there is a denuncia against your house, you will be liable for any consequences.

Please ensure any legal advice you take is from an out of town solicitor, the further the better !!  We have been told of a solicitor who is offering the 4 year rule route, he is also very much in with the builders and as I have said above, the 4 year rule makes you the promoter and therefore lets the developer off the hook.

No-one can advise you except a completely independent solicitor.

[johnnymay]

can someone give me help and advice, My house is deemed illegal but is now 4years old, I have visited a legal person who has now registered it under the four year rule and says this registration will guarantee me getting an escruturia, I have made arrangements to go to the notary where i expect to pay my taxes, am i spending my money in vain or am i going down the right road? Can someone please help as it looks like its going to cost about 3k euros and AM I WAISTING MY TIME AND MONEY? oh I have been told by a third person that my house has a denuncia on it by seprona although i have heard nothing of it, and would i still be able to get an escruturia if it has?