Lost my marbles?

[zilnor]

History is written by the victors . Don't know who said/wrote that but there is a lot of truth in it.

[hyacintho]

Well, I've just found 7 of them, marbles that is, rolling down the local hill in perfect unison, they all have markings on them such as: Buddhist; Muslim; Hindu; Jew; Christian and Sikh. They just roll merrily along bouncing off each other as they hit a bump or a bend, no problem.

The problem is with the human fanatics who claim to represent these religion, fanatics whom for the best part have no training in their religion or its ideologies, they are there purely to serve themselves and air their pathetic grievances upon any poor sole that will listen. And of course give them a financial handout!!

[webejamin]

I've never read the Bible, mostly coz I'm not interested enough and I don't fink there's any pictures in it

Don't worry about going to Hell macc, if you don't believe in Hell, you won't go there, will you?

I fink most of history, like the Bible, is probably made up to suit whoever writes in it. All the history about our Kings and Queens is probably bent and twisted. Even some of the last hundred years is made up, we know that from official reports into major events that are turning out to be false.
It's probably one of the good things about modern media, that recorded events are being scrutinised more closely these days, mind you some of that can be twisted to suit.
Can we trust google?

I'm getting back under the stairs, it's safer    

[zilnor]

Macc, 
Google is a very useful tool, but  my post was based on knowledge acquired through an interest in history and the Roman Empire.

Karen,
I totally agree with you on not making religion compulsory, and not killing others for not sharing your views.

[macc]

You see Zilnor, google is like god, but with answers.

[Karen4]

Anything that isn't a contemporaneous account of an event isn't really worth too much unless backed up by other evidence - that's evidence, not hearsay or opinion!
Incidentally, there were many virgin births before Mary, and there have been many since. It is perfectly possible to become pregnant while never having had sex. Also worth noting that a "virgin" in those days simply meant a young woman. "Betrothed" meant legally married for 3 to 6 months, to see if the woman could conceive as, if she didn't, the husband was entitled to annul the marriage.
Bottom line is that I don't care what others believe as long as they don't
a) make it compulsory, and
b) kill or harm others for not sharing their views.

[zilnor]

JoJo
There are non-Christian references to Jesus in the three hundred years after the crucifixion.

Tacitus wrote that Nero blamed the Christians for the fire that destroyed Rome in AD64. Tacitus said "
.... The populace Christus from whom the name had its origin, in the reign of Tiberius at the hands of Pontius Pilates, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment again broke out, not only in Judea the first source of the evil, but in zRome."

Pliny the Younger while Roman governor of part of Asia Minor asked Trajan's advice in AD112 on how to conduct legal proceedings against those accused of being Christians. Pliny's writings on what he had learned of Jesus " .....They sing a hymn to Christ as to a God. And take a solemn oath not to any wicked deeds, never commit any fraud , theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called apon to deliver it. Then they reassembled to partake of food."

Josephus, a 1st century AD historian makes reference to Jesus being a wise and revered teacher.

Greek writings exist referring to Yusef , or something similar , which was a Hebrew word for Jesus.

The wife of Constantine had converted to Christianity and wanted her husband to. He was about to fight a strategic battle when on the evening before , a strange light appeared in the sky which contemporary reports said resembled a cross. Constantine won the battle and this helped his conversion ! But like you, I think he was hedging his bets !

So there is evidence to support the view that Jesus actually existed and his followers were seen as a threat.
But whether he was the son of God, born of a virgin,or performed miracles is another matter. It is an act of faith if people believe it to be true.
I believe that a man called Jesus existed on this earth around two thousand years ago, and he seems to have been a charismatic speaker and a caring person who promoted peace instead of war, love instead of hate. But I don't believe the myths that surround him.

[Jo-JoB]

It seems I being pointed out specifically as a non believer, and bringer of God Wrath, That's OK as I don't believe, I don't fear hell, as It doesn't exist.

But I don't believe because, I have read the stories in the Bible several times, both Old and New Testaments.

''Modern'' Christians will tell you, the Old Testament is Judaism, and not what you should follow, but the New Testament tells us about Jesus and how he changed Christianity.

Can someone please show me, Evidence of Christ's birth, if you read your bible, Luke 2,1 to 5 it states.

1 Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world.
2 This was the first census to take place while Quirinius was governor of Syria.
3 And everyone went to his own town to register.
4 So Joseph also went up from Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to the City of David called Bethlehem, since he was from the house and line of David.
5 He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to him in marriage and was expecting a child.

Why is there no records of his birth?
The main sources of Jesus records are the Synoptic Gospels, which notoriously biased, However even if Jesus existed, there is still scant proof he was the son of God.

Nosun,

You make it sound like the ''Mighty Roman Empire'' changed to Christianity over night, It took 3 centuries and they changed because Emperor Constantine the Great, forced them to, on pain of death. Even he however refused to be baptised, until his religious advisers told he he would not enter Heaven until he did, so was baptised several days before his death. (so even he was edging his bets)

To believe that the universe and all that is within it was created by some deity, when vast quantities of empirical evidence show that to be wrong is your choice.

With regard to reading books, I have read many books, You seem to think that ''none believers'' have closed minds, when it is the exact opposite, we read not to prove it's wrong, but to try to prove it's right. The Bible is not a factual tome, it is just another book of stories, so believe it if you wish, that is your choice.

You have to read books with a modicum of common sense and acquired knowledge, which is why I refuse to believe that the animals in the Wind in the Willows can actually talk.

[macc]

Don't worry Webe, you are totally safe, your a lover remember, so is he , according to Nibs, and he really likes the confused, so you are perfectly safe. Think of your confusion as a sign of growth!  :happy-new-year-toast:

[webejamin]

That's it JJ you've done it now If God reads this topic, he's gonna see us all go to Hell and it's all your fault You seem to know him better than anyone else on here now he's gonna be mad at us all Godelpusansaveus

[Karen4]

Love George Carlin, the man was a genius.

[macc]

Have you been watching George Carlin Nibs . He is YOUR God as well and, HE LOVES YOU, even if you don't love him. OK Nibbler, thanks for letting me know that. Happy New Year to you and your family, :happy-new-year-toast: have a great one.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r-e2NDSTuE

[Jo-JoB]

Cor blimy JJ you aint gonna get to heaven now after that lot, you musta been right religious at one time to know that lot innit

Oh, and the bit about "Barbers" I thought it was coz of Brexit that they were cutting hair no longer ??? :happy-new-year-toast:

.

Webejamin,

I have read lots of religious books, as daft as it seems, I enjoy books on theology, they give a reasonable indication of time lines in history.

But religious texts all say pretty much the same thing to a lesser or greater degree.

1/ This god created everything!
2/ Believe in me I am the one and only god.
3/ Don't believe in other gods. Even Hinduism which has many gods, states some gods are less important than others.
4/ If you do not believe in this specific god you will be punished
5/ If you don't follow my religious rules you will be punished, ie burn in eternal hell, be reincarnated as a ''lesser animal, or as a lower caste.
6/ You must worship only me.

This is why I personally cannot commit to any religion, because they all say the same thing effectively. And the vast majority don't even agree with themselves,
Christianity has 20,000 different denominations.
Islam has different sects, no where nears as many as Christianity but the issue is the same.
Hinduism has different sects.
Judaism which is effectively Old Christianity has different sects.

So someone has got to be wrong, That doesn't mean that any religion is right, It just shows the facile nature of religion in general.

[nibbler]

Macc my last word on this. The deaths and injuries in Syria are the  result of civil war like so much of the conflict in the world today.
Man has created all this death with their interpretation of their religion. As I  have said many time before Faith should not be confused with religion.
Also whether you like it or not he is YOUR God as well and he loves you even if you don't love him.
Happy New year to you and your family,
Nibbler

[Tetley]

Well the happyest relgious bloke i ever met was a buddest monk, he used ti come round the buisness in Hull for a chat, i used to meck him a cuppa,and he used ti give us all a guranja sticker wi  be happy on it. :) :)


yer all need ti have a little Guranja chant, then yell all be as appy as - in the mornin
 

[zilnor]

Webe


It is better to be a lover than a fighter !

[webejamin]

It's all about love really, I'm a great lover. I love to be with some people, there are others I love to steer clear of, then there's a few I'd love to punch in the face.
Peace and love be with you all Fink I'll end up in church soon

[macc]

Macc and others, I was asked a question and I gave an answer! You can make of that what you will. It's perfectly obvious to me that you are non believers and of course that is your choice in life. I have made mine and I can assure you that I do not have any rose coloured glasses.
My eyes are wide open and have been all my life. I could debate this topic until the end of time and you would still have the same opinion, but I will make a bet with you that some day you will pray for His help.
Nibbler

That's a very devilish sentence to end on Nibbler. 8 million children in Siria at this moment in time, and hundreds of thousands before them in very recent times already took that bet and prayed, and lost. Thanks to your GOD. 

[zilnor]

Alhambra,
For the record, I do not believe in God or any deity. But there are primary sources left by the Romans to document that JC existed. He was a person who lived on this earth. You seem to be the expert on what a fact is. Please give us your definition.

Chambers dictionary : " anything that happens, a truth, a reality, or a real state of things, as distinguished from a mere statement or belief "

To acknowledge the existence of JC does not mean a person has a faith or religious belief. K

[Karen4]

It was a kind of a joke, before everything falls into a black hole and we get the shouters yelling "I'm right and the rest of you are wrong!" Followed by "agree with me or forfeit your head!"  

[zilnor]

Religion and politics, probably the two most divisive subjects for discussion known to mankind ( and womankind) ! !

Anyway, I will soon be having a large glass of wine to start off the NYE celebrations. If wine was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me !  :happy-new-year-toast: :happy-new-year-toast:

Whatever our beliefs/ religion/faith may be, enjoy your evening. 😀😀😀

[alhambra]

JoJo,
You are correct  about the writings of the Old Testament advocating slavery, murder, homophobia, gender inequality etc etc. These texts were written 5000 years ago or more, and the way of life ,values and belief systems were very different to what we experience today.

It is understandable that when  Jesus appeared saying we should " love thy neighbour" and " turn the other cheek" therefore promoting tolerance towards every section of society , he quickly gathered large numbers of supporters. We should remember that it was not the Romans who wanted to execute JC, but the Jewish priests who immediately saw what a threat he was to them and their comfortable position in life.
No, I am not having a go at Judaism, just stating the facts ! M

Bout the most sensible post on the subject yet Liz :happy-new-year-toast:

If you think that's a sensible statement Webejamin, then you have to be what you claim you are not, RELIGIOUS, you have the blind faith thing as well, just like the rest of us believers.  I see you are just stating facts again Liz. Do you know what your favourite word means. Do you mean, just stating your faith. Would you agree that a FACT is a known provable truth, or even that facts are verifiable, just askin, don't get upset Webejamin, remember we are upstairs now, you can't request i leave. :happy-new-year-toast: By the way Karen, what does stop coming over all "Daesh" about things?! mean

[Karen4]

I am very happy for people to believe what they choose, and I fully respect their right to do so. However, I don't have respect for any organised religion, and that's my choice too. So for the love of Odin might we all just agree to disagree and stop coming over all "Daesh" about things?! 

[nibbler]

Macc and others, I was asked a question and I gave an answer! You can make of that what you will. It's perfectly obvious to me that you are non believers and of course that is your choice in life. I have made mine and I can assure you that I do not have any rose coloured glasses.
My eyes are wide open and have been all my life. I could debate this topic until the end of time and you would still have the same opinion, but I will make a bet with you that some day you will pray for His help.
Nibbler

[Karen4]

I prefer to believe in Schrödinger's god. Easier all round.

[webejamin]

JoJo,
You are correct  about the writings of the Old Testament advocating slavery, murder, homophobia, gender inequality etc etc. These texts were written 5000 years ago or more, and the way of life ,values and belief systems were very different to what we experience today.

It is understandable that when  Jesus appeared saying we should " love thy neighbour" and " turn the other cheek" therefore promoting tolerance towards every section of society , he quickly gathered large numbers of supporters. We should remember that it was not the Romans who wanted to execute JC, but the Jewish priests who immediately saw what a threat he was to them and their comfortable position in life.
No, I am not having a go at Judaism, just stating the facts ! M

Bout the most sensible post on the subject yet Liz :happy-new-year-toast:

[Rod]

Yes, when Jesus came he changed everything including the Old Testament, His was the new Covenant.

[zilnor]

JoJo,
You are correct  about the writings of the Old Testament advocating slavery, murder, homophobia, gender inequality etc etc. These texts were written 5000 years ago or more, and the way of life ,values and belief systems were very different to what we experience today.

It is understandable that when  Jesus appeared saying we should " love thy neighbour" and " turn the other cheek" therefore promoting tolerance towards every section of society , he quickly gathered large numbers of supporters. We should remember that it was not the Romans who wanted to execute JC, but the Jewish priests who immediately saw what a threat he was to them and their comfortable position in life.
No, I am not having a go at Judaism, just stating the facts ! M

[webejamin]

Cor blimy JJ you aint gonna get to heaven now after that lot, you musta been right religious at one time to know that lot innit

Oh, and the bit about "Barbers" I thought it was coz of Brexit that they were cutting hair no longer ??? :happy-new-year-toast:

[Jo-JoB]

Are Christian values - caring, sharing, love, promoting peace, helping others less fortunate irellevant then.  I am not suggesting that they are uniquely Christian, only that most Christians try to adhere to them.  A far cry from the bitterness and intolerance shown on here, I think. Which would be a better way to run things?

Who has show bitterness and intolerance?

''Are Christian values - caring, sharing, love, promoting peace, helping others less fortunate irrelevant then.  I am not suggesting that they are uniquely Christian, only that most Christians try to adhere to them''

Do you genuinely believe that?, As for intolerance, I believe this is one of your previous comments

''Anybody care to check here what the ''Qur'an'' says about Christians and the Bible  http://www.answering-islam.org/Green/onbible.htm'';

You cannot use religious intolerance in the Qur'an when the Old Testament is just as bad.

A) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev 1:9). but if someone complains about the smell they should be killed (smitten)!!

B) Selling your children into slavery, is sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price?

C) Men should have no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual un-cleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). In this day and age try telling a woman that!!,

D) Lev. 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. Where can you buy a frenchy?

E) I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. So am I morally obligated to kill him myself? Or should I get the other neighbours round and have a stoning party?

F) Eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), however it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. REALLY!!!

G) Lev 21:20 states that you may not approach the altar of God if you have a defect in your sight, or are disabled, So if you wear reading glasses you can't worship God?
So does my vision have to be 20/20, if not where in the Bible does it say there is some wiggle room?

H) The cutting of hair is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. What are all the Barbers going to do?

I) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of threads (cotton/polyester blend) an abomination to fashion also!
He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)


I think the above shows the absurdity of trying to relate a stone age mindset in to a modern world reality!!

I think you will find that ''Moral values are not necessarily Christian values'' and are down to the individuals, and not down to any religious community. as can be seen above, Religion has a tendency to put up barriers rather than tear them down.

All Religions wear ''blinkers'' They put forward ONLY what shows them in the best light. They are the oldest form of media manipulation.

[webejamin]

Cor blimy!!! I knew Brexit would pop up somewhere in this topic ??? Godelpusansaveus ???
According to many of these posts, God gets thought about, more than I considered he would be, more by the non believers I think. I'm a non believer by the way, I don't believe there is, and I don't believe there isn't.

webejamin, bless you all :happy-new-year-toast:

[Tetley]

Are Christian values - caring, sharing, love, promoting peace, helping others less fortunate irellevant then.  I am not suggesting that they are uniquely Christian, only that most Christians try to adhere to them. A far cry from the bitterness and intolerance shown on here, I think. Which would be a better way to run things?

And also now Sadly now across the divided UK and USA.


Jo Job ,on the money .

[NorrieM]

Are Christian values - caring, sharing, love, promoting peace, helping others less fortunate irellevant then.  I am not suggesting that they are uniquely Christian, only that most Christians try to adhere to them.  A far cry from the bitterness and intolerance shown on here, I think. Which would be a better way to run things?

[Jo-JoB]

Jo-JoB


"Are politicians responsible for the genocide of native South Americans by the conquistadors, the rape and murder of millions by Muslims and Christians during the crusades, the sexual abuse of children for centuries by the Catholic Church, I could go on the list is endless."

"Are politicians responsible for the genocide of native South Americans by the conquistadors" Who sent them ? Man in the guise  go Spanish and Portuguese Rulers of their Empire at the time !"  

Who rules Empires ?" Royalty and their Court et al Man & Politicians

"the rape and murder of millions by Muslims and Christians during the crusades"  

The Soldiers of the Knights Templers guarding the Route to the Holy Land Pilgrims and laterlyThe Templars were closely tied to the Crusades; when the Holy Land was lost, support for the order faded. Rumours about the Templars' secret initiation ceremony created distrust, and King Philip IV of France – deeply in debt to the order!  Again down to 1 Royal Man who would not pay his Creditors on that occasion.

"the sexual abuse of children for centuries by the Catholic Church, I could go on the list is endless."

I am surprised Jo-Jo you even went with this one !  You need to ask? Politicians and the Rulers of that Religion frightened to open that can of worms but Mankind all the same !

Is the Bible the word of God you ask and do I believe it?  

Don't be ridiculous how can it be the word of God when Henry the 8th invented a new religion so he could divorce at will, do away with Wives by the Chop and take up with any Strumpet that took his fancy and King.  Especially when the King James 'Authorised Version' came from a translation in 1604 and completed in 1611.  How many times was the 'story' contained therein misrepresented by previous translations ? Who knows !  I'm happy for anybody to follow and practice any religion of their choice but don't impose that religion or belief on me and that also to people that are agnostics.

As for my religion ?  Thats my belief and mine alone and FA to do with any body else. Its not Religion that's the problem its the interpretation by MANKIND with all his or her failings !

Hogsy

Hogsy

Can I ask you how can religion exist ''without'' the interpretation on man?

The Politicians and Rulers of Religion as you call them are the ones who created the religious rules that doctrines follow. And are directly responsible for all the atrocities wars and heinous crimes associated with religion.

So where is GOD in all this, your comments just bolster my point, God didn't create Man, Your Religious rulers created God, to explain phenomenon they couldn't explain, and control the masses with tales of fear and retribution.
Every religion is based on man's interpretation, from the Norse religions who explained thunder as Thor's chariot pulled across the heavens by goats, to Shintoism who say tsunamis were created by a giant catfish called Nazamu.

If the Bible isn't the word of God, Then Christianity, that has existed for several thousand years is basically based on nothing but goat headers campfire stories.

As Zilnor has pointed out, You don't need religion to have faith, and you don't need religion to be a good and kind person.

If anyone finds comfort in religion then that is their joy and I am happy for them. But it has to be a personal choice.

indoctrination into a religions is usually based on what part of the world you are born in, Babies have no religion, that is forced on them, and some pay with genital mutilation, circumcision and FGM.

All Religions have no place in a modern society, to base your life on centuries old ideologies and doctrines is ludicrous.

[Tetley]

Probably most of us on this forum grew up in a Christian background, one way or another. Thanks to the Romans, we have textual evidence of a man who , in his short life appeared to have a social conscience and spoke up for the poor, underprivileged and marginalised. He was a charismatic man with good oratory skills.
But whether he was the son of God, or worked miracles , is another matter, and unprovable, and if you choose to believe he was, that is an act of faith.

Spot on Zills,infact thats probaly it in a nutshell,JC was probaly an early Socalist/ democrat,

also as a side issue the kids still are taught and study Roman law today as part of there law coarses,

so we still have Jesus and Roman law effecting Daily life some 2000,years on,

now theres a result   :)

Morning mi multi faith / Non faith/ Not sure Faith, EU & UK Luvlies,bit overcast this end,but will battle on...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND3JIfCoyf8