Residencia renewal... apparently not ??

[ramblarider]

Would you all like another real surprise?

You know how you are all being charged a fee to obtain these residence registration certificates?

You shouldn't be.  This should be issued totally free of charge. This is an example of how it should work from Greece:

http://www.athensnews.gr/issue/13432/38291

"
Under Article 8 of the presidential decree, EU citizens who wish to stay in another member state for more than three months are required to apply for a registration certificate. In Greece, it's called a veveosi engrafis, obtainable at their local aliens' bureau. The registration certificate does not have to be renewed.

To register, EU citizens are required to submit a valid identity card or passport, confirmation of engagement from the applicant's employer or a certificate of employment, or proof that they are self-employed.

Those who are not active in the labour market will only need to submit proof of medical insurance and that they have sufficient monetary resources for themselves and their family.

By law, the registration certificate should be issued on the spot. It is free of charge.
EU citizens who do not register will be subject to a fine of a minimum of 59 euros."

Greece is following the correct procedure on this. Spain isn't. The UK also makes no charge.

You are perfectly within your rights to demand this registration certificate be given to you free, and immediately.

I will have written confirmation of this shortly.

[Tetley]

Thanks Rambler very intresting.  :tiphat:

[ramblarider]

does all this resideny lark make  Sid illigal in spain and can spain evict Sid back to another EU  state ?  and if Sid says  Bxggxr off mi land im an EU citz and yer can shuv yer paperwork  ( in fluent spanish of course  ;)  ) what can spain Do apart from  fine Sid  ?

Absolutely nothing. Zero. Nada. Zilch.

The only fine could be for failing to register initially (300 Euros maximum), but as this was back in 1998 any action on that front would be pretty unlikely. Meantime, after the first 5 years (irrespective of any registration requirements by Spain) permanent residence was established under common EU treaty rights. Meaning, that after that period, no registration or certificate is even needed. In any event no EU country can expel or deport an EU citizen except in the most exceptional circumstances, without an extradition warrant from another country. There are only a handful of such cases a year where an EU country of its own initiative tries to deport an EU citizen as "undesirable" throughout the entire EU and they invariably involve the most serious kind of activities, such as involvement in terrorism, etc. You actually cannot be "illegal" here in the sense I think you mean as you have an absolute right under EU law to live and work here and this cannot be denied to you on anything other than very limited grounds. The question of registration has no effect at all on this.

[Tetley]

A small question.

Sid Almond    buys  a little farm house for 3k in 1998 , no mains lecky no mains water ,no deeds for house as it was bought on a compreventa ,has funds from outside of spain, dosent have a spanish bank acount ,has private medical, isnt on a padron,dosent have residencia and comes down from the hills once a week to go to lidle on a mountain bike with" Bark" the dog  in a basket on the handle bars  ;),does all this resideny lark make  Sid illigal in spain and can spain evict Sid back to another EU  state ?  and if Sid says  Bxggxr off mi land im an EU citz and yer can shuv yer paperwork  ( in fluent spanish of course  ;)  ) what can spain Do apart from  fine Sid  ?

:tiphat:

[ramblarider]

If you live in Spain continuously for more than five years, you can then choose to get permanent reside

To correct you on one detail, you do not "choose" to obtain permanent residence. It is obtained automatically without any need to apply after 5 years. You can choose to request a certificate for proof of this if you yourself wish to - but you do not have to. The fact is that anyone who has held either an old style 'residencia' or a new certificate of registration that has expired and has been here 5 years is a permanent resident and as such has no need of any card or certificate and the Spanish authorities have no right whatsoever to ask for them.

[I want to help]

As of March 2007 EU citizens no longer require an EU Residence Card. EU citizens who already hold an EU Residence Card do not need to re-register until the card expire.

Any EU citizen intending to stay in Spain for more than three months is obliged to register to be added to the Central Register of Foreign Nationals (Registro Central de Extranjeros) at a Foreigners Office (Oficina de Extranjero)

A Registration Certificate as an EU Resident (Certificado de registro como residente comunitario) is issued. This document certifies residence in Spain and includes the holders name, address, nationality, and foreigners tax identification number (Número de Identificación de Extranjero - NIE) along with the date of registration.

Prior to the introduction of the Registration Certificate in April 2007, foreigners were required to submit a separate application for an NIE. This is no longer necessary, as application for an NIE is incorporated in the residence certificate application process.

You should be aware that the registration certificate is literally a piece of paper. While it does officially prove your Spanish residency, it is not a valid form of identification in Spain – only your own national passport is acceptable as ID.

If you live in Spain continuously for more than five years, you can then choose to get permanent reside

[ramblarider]

That is exactly right. A Spanish citizen can renew a DNI without travelling a long distance. These ridiculous demands to "renew" a document that never even expires have involved travelling a couple of hundred km. This is why this is all wrong and needs to get sorted out.

[gus-lopez]

Hi all,went to Baza yesterday very nice chap,no waiting asked if the certificate needed renewing he said no it was for life.sorted   B

Why is there such a fuss at having to go to Almeria once in every 5 years?

Because Spanish law itself , let alone EU law , requires that Spnaish citizens & foreigners with permanent residency  were not required to be inconvenienced by having to travel large distances & provision should be made for it to be done locally.

[Tetley]

Thanks Rambler    :tiphat:

[ramblarider]

I already have some information on this. The relevant section is Article 15.8 of the Royal Decree 240/2007:

8. El incumplimiento de la obligación de solicitar la tarjeta de residencia o del certificado de registro conllevará la aplicación de las sanciones pecuniarias que, en idénticos términos y para supuestos similares, se esta- blezca para los ciudadanos españoles en relación con el Documento Nacional de Identidad.

Roughly... Failure to apply for a residence card (non-EU) or certificate of registration (EU citizen) will result in application of financial sanctions similar to those that apply to a Spanish citizen in relation to the documents of National Identity.

The fine for that is 300 Euros, by the way.

It is not quite that simple, however. First, the certificate of registration is explicitly NOT an identity document so given that the EU Directive requires strict equivalence and proportionality it is hard to see how this complies. This is something I have sought another opinion on.

Most critically the penalty only applies for failure to apply. Not failure to carry it with you. In fact, the EU Directive never even envisaged any requirement to carry this document with you, and the Royal Decree does not require it either.. so if police are indeed fining people for not having it on them, this seems to be a very clear "misunderstanding".  Finally, as we now know, the document NEVER goes "out of date" so if you are fined for that, it is most categorically completely wrong. You should appeal.

[Tetley]

If The Guardia stop you with the out of date card look out- big fine !!

Really?

How much is this "big" fine, exactly?

I assume you must know or you would not have presented this as a fact?

Rambler
If Possible could you contact the Eu for us again and ask them for the penaltys for EU  citizens not holding an up to date padron cert or an out of date residency as obviously is Sapper knows of someone whom has been fined and there isnt an offence there in the first place this is realy jacking the anti up  by the SP  powers.

T  :tiphat:

[Sapper]

Rumour has it 400 euros for using false or out of date ID . I had to hand in my card and when I asked if I could keep it was warned in no uncertain terms that this was not allowed.

[ramblarider]

If The Guardia stop you with the out of date card look out- big fine !!

Really?

How much is this "big" fine, exactly?

I assume you must know or you would not have presented this as a fact?

[Sapper]

If The Guardia stop you with the out of date card look out- big fine !!

[Tetley]

I'd carry on wearing your dresses Tetley - otherwise you're only going to confuse the Residencia Office, and they seem to have their own set of problems.   :lol:

Hells teeth Lynne no its not me  :o  :o ,im just asking incase the LP  lady turns up at somenes house localy on here town hall registration dutys only to find a registered Mr running around i her Small,s and the LP  lady thinking that all us Brit Blokes are the same,ie running around incorrectly registered in ladys gear   ;D

Still its not all bad ,maybee we can organize a "village people night"  in the Ped Gilb ,il have a word with Rog    ;)

[Arty]

If anyone still has a card, it is worth getting a copy made before renewal, as the new piece of paper is no good for easy identification.  Many places make laminated copies - like Knights insurance in Albox.  I've been using my copy for over a year now - most people just want to see a piece of ID with your photo and NIE on it, only one person has commented that it is out of date.  Of course, if necessary I can then produce my piece of paper or passport or whatever.

[Lynne]

I'd carry on wearing your dresses Tetley - otherwise you're only going to confuse the Residencia Office, and they seem to have their own set of problems.   :lol:

[ramblarider]

Went to Almeria last week to renew our residencias and were given a piece of paper the size of a credit card with all our details on.It is shiny on the back but just like paper on the front and we were told we must not laminate it ,it must be renewed in 5 years or if we move house.I just photocopied the card then laminated that no problem

The demand that you re-register if you change address is one of the points I have raised and am awaiting a formal response on. This is almost certainly not the case, but it is an interesting example of the out of control bureaucracy here.

[Tetley]

Steve, are you saying you haven't told them yet?
:lol:

No Dec im just trying to keep a brest of the renewal situation by covering in all aspects /  any New British  TH by laws   ;D

[derbydec]

Steve, are you saying you haven't told them yet?
:lol:

[Tetley]

 Does anybody know if one had a sex change opp ,would one need to inform the residenci office in Almeria or is it ok not to tell them as long as you dont move address  ?

[jimmybeen]

'susielaw' does that have your photo on & was it your first renewal ??    :D

[susielaw]

Went to Almeria last week to renew our residencias and were given a piece of paper the size of a credit card with all our details on.It is shiny on the back but just like paper on the front and we were told we must not laminate it ,it must be renewed in 5 years or if we move house.I just photocopied the card then laminated that no problem

[Tetley]

Bang on Gus,there,s quit a bit of Neck around these parts......   :whistle:

[gus-lopez]

There will probably be a new directive soon saying we all need our heads examaning as well every 2 years,that should be intresting ,coz i can think of a few who aint gona meck it localy   ;)

A ' check-up from the neck up ' .

[ramblarider]

See the full response to this direct from the European Commission after I raised the matter with them.

http://www.arboleas.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=59444.msg314897#msg314897

You can safely rely on this advice (unlike some of the other advice floating around here).

It does raise a few interesting possibilities.......

[Sally-ant]

I may be wrong, but I think derbydec was saying that the Town Hall would make an appointment for you at Almeria, not issue a residencia certificate.

[cantabrian]

IT is not a problem with waiting ,it is the cost of going !! ,derbydec claims it can be attended to at the town hall,so why do people go to Baza or Almeria ? :head :wave :wave

[castawaysuk]

We have had similar experiences Ken.  We have never had to wait more than 20 minutes, which I do not consider a huge amount of waiting time.

[ken]

Went to Almeria on Monday to renew our Residencia, we had a 1.24pm appointment and arrived at 12.40pm we left the building at 12.50pm with our new residencia.

[emma123]

where does it say on the green paper the date that you originally got you residencia. As I got my first one in Feb 2003 and don't see that written anywhere, and when I went to the social office in Heurcal Overa they had no record of when I first had the residencia although they had a copy of the green paper, they had to go by my Padron date which was in December 2002..
Just for the record the little fat guy in Almeria office said we had to go back in 5 years to update the green paper.. I think it's important to have a residencia if you own any kind of property or land here..  

[jimmybeen]

'Loafer' In answer to your ".... innocent questions:" the journey to Almeria for MOST readers is similar in distance and time BUT the 'waiting' around at Almeria is so frustrating many folk feel they don't want to take that option.
Most find the wait at Baza is minimal or like 'RoyBoy' is "no waiting" at all.  :wave

[loafer]

Hi all,went to Baza yesterday very nice chap,no waiting asked if the certificate needed renewing he said no it was for life.sorted   B

Just a couple of innocent questions:

If you live in Almeria Province, why drive over the border into Granada Province to get personal paperwork registered?

Why is there such a fuss at having to go to Almeria once in every 5 years?

[ramblarider]

Hi all,went to Baza yesterday very nice chap,no waiting asked if the certificate needed renewing he said no it was for life.sorted   

Nice to know that at least one office has someone who knows their job properly.

[Norm2]

OMG - what a variation on a theme these replies give. Only one consistent theme running through them. Go Do-it-yourself and if it works for you no matter where you go and how often - at least you will have peace of mind having heard the advice for yourself - from the horses mouth so to speak. Tempted to say "from the fountain of knowledge" but that's probably over stating the case.