Residencia renewal... apparently not ??

[loafer]

I've searched for, but can't find the email address to make an appointment in Almeria re residencia.

Could someone post it for me please.  :wave

[Tetley]

I am not confusing anything.

Read the full text of the directive. The residence certificate is not equivalent to a Spanish Citizens ID (DNI) card (which is subject to periodic renewal). It expressly is not an identification document.

This is correct ,the SP citizens use,s there DNI  card for proof of id & state registered purcheses ie cars,and i THINK  they can even use it for air travel within the EU at the points of entry like we use our passport,were as the residencia cert always normaly needs to be used with a passport for ID.

[ramblarider]

As there seems to be so much confusion over this, I have asked a contact of mine in the EU 'citizenship and free movement' department in Brussels to liaise directly with the minister's office Madrid to get some definitive, and official, answers. I'll post the response here. It will probably take a week or so.

They are also obliged to issue 'residencia' paperwork immediately, by the way. Not "come back later". They are also supposed to offer this service local to where you live... not involving hundreds of km of travelling... but this is unfortunately typical of the way these rules are being widely ignored!

[parasolfred]

In that case I'm glad to hear they seem to have got their act together a bit better - we got ours done 4 years ago. It's still a long trip for poor souls who have no transport!

[castawaysuk]

When was this parasol Fred?  Because I have been four times with people in the last three months and have only booked the appointment via email and then gone on the day of the appointment with the relevant documents and they have given us the residencia certificate there and then.

[parasolfred]

Parasol Fred,

You send an email to book the appointment and then go to the extranjeros office in Almeria with your documentacion on the day of your appointment and they give you the certificate there and then.  You only need to go once.

Actually we had to go TWICE as we booked the appointment, went with all the relevant documentation, fees paid etc, but were told to come back in TWO WEEKS for the certificates! I queried this and was told there was no way round it! I just wonder how people manage if they have no car, don't drive etc as Almeria is a long way away from Arboleas! Two trips there = 2 trips to the shopping centre and even MORE money spent!

[ramblarider]

I am not confusing anything.

Read the full text of the directive. The residence certificate is not equivalent to a Spanish Citizens ID (DNI) card (which is subject to periodic renewal). It expressly is not an identification document.

[castawaysuk]

Parasol Fred,

You send an email to book the appointment and then go to the extranjeros office in Almeria with your documentacion on the day of your appointment and they give you the certificate there and then.  You only need to go once.

[Roger]

You are confusing the right of residence with the duty of the INE to maintain an accurate record of citizens, Spanish and non Spanish, resident in the country.

In the same way every Town Hall has a legal obligation to maintain an accurate padron of all citizens resident in the town.

None of this affects our right to reside in Spain.
But of course if you do not follow the rules you may experience problems in the future.
All Spanish citizens also have the right, of course, to reside in Spain
BUT they still have the obligation to renew their DNI when required.

[ramblarider]

I have a permanent residence in Spain.
When I renewed it in Almeria I was told that I had to renew the certificate every 5 years.
When I challenged this, since I am a permanent resident, I was told that although I have the right to permanent residence
I still have to confirm that I am still in the country every 5 years.
Hence the need to renew the certificate.

That is absolute rubbish - and simply demonstrates that a large percentage of these officials do not even know their own jobs.

There is a very clear EU Directive on this:

(18) In order to be a genuine vehicle for integration into the society of the host Member State in which the Union citizen resides, the right of permanent residence, once obtained, should not be subject to any conditions.

That means exactly what it says. No conditions. No further applications. No renewals. No sanctions. Nothing at all.

Article 17:

1. Union citizens who have resided legally for a continuous period of five years in the host Member State shall have the right of permanent residence there. This right shall not be subject to the conditions provided for in Chapter III.

Full text:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:158:0077:0123:EN:PDF

Unfortunately, many of these officials seem to have no clue as to what the real situation is, and are relying instead upon practices that are long defunct and in some cases have been ruled unlawful. This directive is very, very clear - and supersedes any regulations anyone in Spain tries to impose to the contrary.

[gus-lopez]

 sunrun

Does anyone know if being a "Tax resident" would also mean that you have to be a permanent resident, PLEASE??  ???

No.
Fiscal Residency is cumulative & after 183 days per year you are 'fiscally resident' & required to make a tax declaration. Residency is consecutive & after 90 days you are required to register on the Registro Central de Extranjeros . If you leave before 90 days the clock starts again . Therefore you can be fiscally resident without being resident & resident without being fiscally resident !

[parasolfred]

It's about a 250km round trip to Almeria and you have to go twice, once to register and back again to collect the certificate as they will NOT give it to you on the same day. What happens to people who don't/cant drive? I wouldn't be surprised if they just didn't bother!

[Roger]

I have a permanent residence in Spain.
When I renewed it in Almeria I was told that I had to renew the certificate every 5 years.
When I challenged this, since I am a permanent resident, I was told that although I have the right to permanent residence
I still have to confirm that I am still in the country every 5 years.
Hence the need to renew the certificate.
This of course makes perfect sense from the viewpoint of the INE (national office of statistics).
Nothing in the document just referred to contradicts this statement from the official in Almeria.

It is also very clear that you MUST register in the province you live in.
Therefore if you live in Almeria province it is not legal to register in Baza (even though an police officer in Baza fills in the form, obviously not knowing the provincial boundaries).

[SIGMA]

Does anyone know if being a "Tax resident" would also mean that you have to be a permanent resident, PLEASE??  ???

[ramblarider]

Yes... because you applied to renew a temporary residence certificate, rather than applying instead for permanent residence! It really is straightforward. See page 6 of this official booklet:

http://www.maec.es/subwebs/Consulados/SanFrancisco/en/MenuPpal/ServiciosConsularesVisados/Visados/Documents/EUcitizen.pdf

(this refers to the old EX16 form, but the rules are still the same). After 5 years do not renew. Instead, tick the other boxes for permanent residence. That does not need renewing.  See pages 9 and 13 of this official guide also:

http://www.residenteseuropeos.com/pdf/residencia_en.pdf

Note that you lose permanent residence if you are absent from Spain for 2 consecutive years. Otherwise, once you have it, you have it....and you do not need to keep on renewing it. 

[thomas david]

We renewed ours 3 weeks ago in Almeria and purposely asked would we need to renew it and we were told yes in 5 years we have been here 10 years so this wasn't the first renewal

[ramblarider]

I agree. It is not exactly explained very well on the official sites. However... the situation itself is pretty simple.

1. Initially, it is granted for 5 years.
2. After 5 years, you can apply for it to be made permanent. This does not expire and no further renewals are necessary.

If you do not tick the 'Permanent' box, however, they will merely issue another 'temporary' one. Why? Because you did not request 'Permanent'...

The same form is used for both. Just different tick boxes.

Optomist, you say "If you check first i think most people will find that they wont qualify if they tick the Permanent Residencia box . Its not as simple as selecting it when it comes to renewing so your new residencia would be permanent "

I fail to understand this. On what precise grounds are you saying they would refuse it? As long as you have had legal residence here for 5 years (a break of up to 2 years outside Spain is allowed), they have to grant it. There are only very limited grounds on which they can refuse it (very serious criminal convictions, or they regard you as a threat to national security, for example).

[optomist]

Yes i realized that but the green residence is whats being issued now and several posts are stating their permanent as they dont have expire date then thats why i dont see the reasoning behind having 2 options . If the original application is only valid for 5 years but on renewal it permanent then that would make sense , would explain why some people have been informed there only valid for 5 years and others that there permanent , the answer would then be that there all correct , the green residencia can be either Dependant on whether its your 1st one or the 1st renewal however if you dont check the permanent box on renewal then what the situation would be is anyones guess , probable another 5 years . The date on mine is March 2001 and my wifes May 2006 so if its longer than 5 years ago since the 1st one was issued then thats how police or anyone else would know your own personnel situation , whether its to be treated as permanent or temporary , ie more or less that 5 years ago .

[Queen Clare Shirley]

I was first granted residency when I was 14 it doesn't say that on my residencia, it says the date of the last time I renewed it which was last September.

I will listen and watch and in five years or when a photo id card comes out I will ring and ask what the current procedure is

Clare

[gus-lopez]

'gus-lopez' could you type that one again               "It does not show the date from when you renew it , only the date on which you renewed it."                  should that read (as I understand it)           It does not show the date from when you renew it , only the date on which you first applied for it.

When you renew it ,after the first 5 years of residence , it shows the date from which residency was first granted . It also shows the date on which you renewed it in the rubber stamp.

That also answers the other question , " is the green paper permanent or 5 years " , if it was permanent with no need to renew then the box wouldn't be there , there wouldn't be a need for it .

It would as the same form is for initial residency applications when you tick the other box.

[optomist]

If you check first i think most people will find that they wont qualify if they tick the Permanent Residencia box . Its not as simple as selecting it when it comes to renewing so your new residencia would be permanent . That also answers the other question , " is the green paper permanent or 5 years " , if it was permanent with no need to renew then the box wouldn't be there , there wouldn't be a need for it .

Here is a guide that might be of assistance to anyone planning to fill out the form but unsure of the questions , there are small numbers against the appropriate questions on the form and  the respective English translation is below ..............

(1) Check the appropriate box. Passport / Tax Identification Number
(2) Check the appropriate box. Male / Female
(3) Fill using 2 digit day, 2 for 4 for the month and year, in this order (dd / mm / yyyy)
(4) Check the appropriate box. Single / Married / Widowed / Divorced / Separated
(5) Indicate the title by which it holds the representation, for example: Father / Mother of the child, Guardian .....
(6) fill only in the case of individuals other than the applicant
(7) I request / consent that communications and notifications are made by electronic means
( Check the appropriate box

[ramblarider]

It is the normal EX-18 form. Right hand side.

http://extranjeros.meyss.es/es/ModelosSolicitudes/Mod_solicitudes2/18-Certificado_Residencia_comunitaria.pdf

Tick: RESIDENCIA PERMANENTE
Then tick: Residencia continuada en España durante 5 años

[cantabrian]

SO,where can i get this PERMANENT residence form from ? :wave :wave

[jimmybeen]

'gus-lopez' could you type that one again               "It does not show the date from when you renew it , only the date on which you renewed it."                  should that read (as I understand it)           It does not show the date from when you renew it , only the date on which you first applied for it.

[ramblarider]

And... incidentally... after 5 years you are entitled to permanent residence status anyway, and no further renewals required! So, you SHOULD not actually "renew", but after 5 years instead request permanent residence. You can renew the temporary one - they'll let you - , however... and I think this is where much of the confusion lies. The official word on it is here and is very clear:

http://www.interior.gob.es/extranjeria-28/ciudadanos-de-la-union-europea-718/residencia-de-caracter-permanente-725

So they are quite correct when they say "no renewal required". You should not renew. You should simply fill in the form for permanent residence. That does not expire, and never needs renewing. Problem solved.

[gus-lopez]

I have been told at the office in Almeria on a number of occasions by different members of staff that once you have gained residencia it never expires unless you cancel it, however you have to renew the paper as it expires five years from the date on the paperwork. 

No, the date of your first registration is always shown on the certificate. It does not show the date from when you renew it , only the date on which you renewed it.

[ray]

When we renewed ours in Almeria we were told that although they were permanent they had to be renewed every 5 years!! :head
Well it is Spain.

Ray

[cheekyseranos]

ho hum, Castaway,

so that still amounts to the same thing don't it., renewing paperwork every 5 years...... as the green paper shows the date of applicaton etc...

One thing I would say is that, if you renew every 5 years, then the date will change as at the next renewal, thus not showing the date you originally became a resident...does that matter or not.... awww im more confused now and dont know what to do next..

awww im gonna go in the corner and scream now...... :crazy:

[castawaysuk]

I have been told at the office in Almeria on a number of occasions by different members of staff that once you have gained residencia it never expires unless you cancel it, however you have to renew the paper as it expires five years from the date on the paperwork. 

[optomist]

Why would they be concerned if it was out of date , only reason i can think or is that using an out of date resdencia means your liable for a BIG fine depends who stops you but chances are that the officer wont know the law on requiring one anyway .

[Betty]

On the EX18 form that has to be completed there is a box that says in spanish "Residencia continuada in España durante 5 años."
So if there is no end date on the green sheet and you get stopped by the police, how do they know whether you are in or out of date.
All very confusing.

[ramblarider]

http://www.interior.gob.es/extranjeria-28/regimen-general-189/residencia-temporal-202

I've just been on this web site and got it translated with Bing.  Wow, there are many instances that you need to read.  I got the site originally from the British Consulate in Madrid website.  Not at all clear because it mentions if you have been working here etc etc. :-\

That refers to non-EU citizens.

For EU citizens, this is the relevant page:

http://www.interior.gob.es/extranjeria-28/ciudadanos-de-la-union-europea-718/estancia-y-residencia-722

[cantabrian]

WELL my wife and i cannot afford to go to almeria ,so unless it cannot be renewed in albox it won,t be possible to renew it !!! :wave :wave

[Coogan]

http://www.interior.gob.es/extranjeria-28/regimen-general-189/residencia-temporal-202

I've just been on this web site and got it translated with Bing.  Wow, there are many instances that you need to read.  I got the site originally from the British Consulate in Madrid website.  Not at all clear because it mentions if you have been working here etc etc. :-\

[Tetley]

What is an IHT allowance

http://www.arboleas.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=58818.0

:tiphat: