Thinking of Moving to Arboleas area in April, and...

[webejamin]

Might work penfold but, about five years ago, I went to see a Spanish solicitor in Essex with a view to him acting for me. He said he could not do that, because even if all the paperwork was up front, he couldn't tell if it would be in the future, particularly in that part of Spain, due to political vengeance.
Maybe things have changed now, but I doubt it, not for a generation or two. :tiphat:

[soulman]

Can't see how people can get suckered in by these "great deals"...

Ouch!!!

Beware Hudders, it's easy to reach a conclusion like that from afar.

I had a similar view before coming out here but have since met too many intelligent people who have fallen foul of corrupt / incompetent mayors, lawyers, builders etc....... and that's after doing a lot of due diligence beforehand.

Spain may be part of Europe but down here in Andalucia it really is more like a 3rd world country so don't expect UK standard of competence from supposedly professional people. And, based on the numerous tales I've heard, I would say corruption is very very common.

The advice from many of these posts is clear ....... rent first!!

Good Luck.

[webejamin]

I think, what you mean hartcjchart is that you were very lucky in your choice of property, lawyer and everything else, because that's what it comes down to in Spain, pure luck. I got lucky when the bloke next door to one place I was buying, decided to bid me good morning, then proceeded to tell me about his problems, my lawyer, agent and builder were mad about me listening to local gossip, which turned out to be true, saved me a small fortune. :tiphat: 

[lisa j]

Words fail me hartcjhart - tell everyone else who is obviously not as clever as you, how you tell a bent Lawyer from a good one until you get shafted? Do they wear a sign? Do you think people employ a bent Lawyer on purpose?? Did people want to throw money away and end up in that situation?
And also for us ´bitter´ people - if you pay a lot of money for paperwork that turns out to be completely worthless years later - how do you avoid that one?
Many of us are not as clever (or maybe lucky!) as you obviously - but your holier than thou attitude is very condescending.
Lisa J

[hartcjhart]

Hudders, sorry , but by now you must be wondering, what the hell should I do, A,... dont commit to buy a property, rent first, B,... do not trust any solicitor, they are NOT!!!!!! like English solicitors, We  have had two solicitors and have been here 12 yrs, and still dont have legal papers, O.K. if you dont want to sell and your Kids want a place in Spain when you eventually pass on!!,  but TO SELL ON , YOU NEED deeds, For years the Spanish have avoided paperwork, because they dont want to pay taxes on their property, they will ignore the fact that these taxes are retrospect, i.e. whoever buys the property is liable for taxes unpaid by them, solicitors, well, I use that word loosely, will not tell you this, and often, a property and/or land is willed by parents to ALL there children, so you get a situation where Juan, miguel < Maria < Jose and Francisco ALL own part of your house, Juan , might want to sell, because he is short of cash, but all you need is for Maria to say, NO, I want to keep my share and your up shyt creek without a paddle if you have given Juan his money, Juans solicitor wont give a Toss, about you and will sell it on his behalf, and pocket his fee, leaving YOU to sort out ownership with Maria, |Its a complete MINEFIELD, please do not sell your house in England, rent it out, and TRY before you BUY, and if you DO buy, use a solicitor from miles away, then you wont find out that the solicitor is the uncle or cousin of the vendor...,..,,in Spain, blood is thicker than concrete(not water) AND, solicitors are not bound by Law society rules, like in England, NO, repeat NO, NO comeback on them if you end up broke and unable to sell your illegal house.  good luck(you will need it) regards, Jim

errmm yes they are,but, if you use a bent solicitor then you are up the creek,I ahve used and many people have used a VERY good HONEST solicitor and had no probs,
you sound very bitter BUT if you purchased a property with no paperwork what do you expect

[awaywiththefairies]

After carefully reading all the comments do not let it put you off trying living in Spain or the area, whether it be Arboleas or anywhere else in Almeria. There are problems all over Southern Spain not just in this area.  But as you may be best off treating it as an 'adventure' for a few years and not somewhere you are going to 'live out your days'.  If you can, keep your property in the UK. 

[Jim1544]

Hudders, sorry , but by now you must be wondering, what the hell should I do, A,... dont commit to buy a property, rent first, B,... do not trust any solicitor, they are NOT!!!!!! like English solicitors, We  have had two solicitors and have been here 12 yrs, and still dont have legal papers, O.K. if you dont want to sell and your Kids want a place in Spain when you eventually pass on!!,  but TO SELL ON , YOU NEED deeds, For years the Spanish have avoided paperwork, because they dont want to pay taxes on their property, they will ignore the fact that these taxes are retrospect, i.e. whoever buys the property is liable for taxes unpaid by them, solicitors, well, I use that word loosely, will not tell you this, and often, a property and/or land is willed by parents to ALL there children, so you get a situation where Juan, miguel < Maria < Jose and Francisco ALL own part of your house, Juan , might want to sell, because he is short of cash, but all you need is for Maria to say, NO, I want to keep my share and your up shyt creek without a paddle if you have given Juan his money, Juans solicitor wont give a Toss, about you and will sell it on his behalf, and pocket his fee, leaving YOU to sort out ownership with Maria, |Its a complete MINEFIELD, please do not sell your house in England, rent it out, and TRY before you BUY, and if you DO buy, use a solicitor from miles away, then you wont find out that the solicitor is the uncle or cousin of the vendor...,..,,in Spain, blood is thicker than concrete(not water) AND, solicitors are not bound by Law society rules, like in England, NO, repeat NO, NO comeback on them if you end up broke and unable to sell your illegal house.  good luck(you will need it) regards, Jim

[digifidd]

No LisaJ, you said it just as well and very succinctly too. :)

[JessicaH]

If buying property I would have 2 lawyers . 
Need one who is local to the area because local councils here don't like dealing with one who isn't related to a member of staff !!! so not everything is divulged. Then a lawyer or Gestaria to double check everything.

[webejamin]

An awful lot of good advice coming out on here, anyone getting turned over after reading these posts, probably deserve to be. :crazy: But I'd put money on it, that someone, really clever and ultra careful, is, at this moment, being shafted goodstyle :tiphat:

[Tetley]

To be fair i think its horse and bolted syndrome, on the houses front you only have to look around the area at the property for sale and talk to the amount of people that would like to sell if they hadent been conned and was in recipt of correct paperwork.

we have had some great times here as a family,but for a Brit to realy grasp it,you need to have kids in school here and work here,this gives you a real good in sight into how thing work here,basikly its wheels within wheels and if your on the outside without been fully fluent ie educated here you might as well bark at the moon if your trying to get somthing done.

in my humble opione...  :tiphat:

[lisa j]

Well done Digifidd - you said it much better than me!
And yes Roger , our paperwork was checked and our proyecto stamped by the Architects of Almeria but is still worthless - although it did cost us 4500 euro!!
Lisa J

[digifidd]

Roger, people aren't scaremongering - they are giving a valid account of their experiences.  Their experiences happen to be bad ones.

To be honest, people who want to move out to Spain, to buy, don't want to think that the bad things could happen to them.

Many people asked lawyers to double check paperwork - they didn't do as they were asked.  Some of us took the paperwork to banks to check it's legality before signing and guess what?  We were still scammed because it would appear that these institutions are corrupt and/or corruptible by influential developers, town businessmen and even town hall officials.

Why is it that a few of the local mayors have been investigated and brought up on charges of planning law corruption?  

People who are determined to buy need to invest in:
a) a good translator and do a lot of the checks themselves as lawyers won't do it,
b) good financial advice about taxes, healthcare and getting money back out of Spain (inheritance tax and CGT)
and
c) a well recommended lawyer who works outside of the area they are buying.  

Even so, lawyers are not as thorough about doing searches as their UK counterparts and it doesn't help that the Catastral, property registry and town halls aren't linked well enough to triple check what the true situation of a property is.  By your own admission Roger, the systems are riddled with inaccuracies and from my personal experience, downright lies with dodgy paperwork! :-(  The notary doesn't appear to do any checks either despite having the paperwork, sometimes for weeks.

I would never say to someone, don't try Spain, but be prepared for the bad as well as the good aspects of the country as it is not all cheap food and drink, in fact it can be anything but cheap to live there when, water charges, electricity costs, broadband/telephone, insurance, car stuff, logs of the fire, gas bottles, IBI, basura and wealth taxes, healthcare are all taken into account.  We found that there was a steady and surprising 'drip drip' effect of money out of our bank accounts (which have charges too!).

By the way Hudders, don't go telling people how much disposable cash you have or being too ostentatious with it as it will flag you up as someone to fleece.  The Spanish don't necessarily flaunt their wealth even though they love having money.  They will drive a battered Corsa or the like around most of the time and save the Merc, for special occasions!!  If your read other posts on here, some people have been scammed by other Brits.  Paradise it isn't!

Go to Spain by all means, enjoy the weather, soak up the experience, see if it is for you but beware of making important financial or lifestyle decisions when in a holiday mode and on the back of  a Spanish summer - that is all I'm saying.

So please, those of us who have been stung, we pass on our sorry tales with the best of intentions because there is no way we would wish what we have been through on another innocent expat who is eager to 'live the dream' and who hates the UK weather, politicians etc.

Best of luck to you.  :)

[lisa j]

Totally agree with that comment Claire Shirley.
Yes, Roger, some lucky houseowners (especially around Arboleas) MAY get sorted EVENTUALLY - but the whole area of the Almanzora Valley is a minefield of illegal builds and homeowners that live with the very real threat of proceedings against their properties and EVERYONE should be aware of this if they are considering buying there.  I also take issue with your point that it is OK as long as documents are checked (make sure you don´t get a dodgy solicitor checking, by the way!!)- the Junta has yet to agree and finalise all the town plans, and as far as we have been made aware, may totally reject any town plans submitted to them or demand they be revised. This could make some poor peoples paperwork totally worthless. Yes, many problems arose from LAWYERS, MAYOR¨S, NOTARIES, LOCAL POLICE OFFICERS etc etc etc not completing the building process properly - but if these people are corrupt what hope do you stand when you are purchasing!!! PLEASE don´t give the impression that all is sorted and wonderful on the property front now Roger - that is NOT the case, and more than likely won´t be until the Junta get their act together - and that could take years!
Meanwhile, I stand firmly by my first post - BUYER BEWARE!! And we speak from experience!
Lisa J

[Queen Clare Shirley]

Roger what world do you live in??

The houses are not designed for cold and you feel it even with wood burners.
there are a lot of illegal houses and people should be aware of this and keep their eyes opened when buying not go in with blinkers on.

It is cold here in winter we have had snow and we are not adapted to it here.
For some people it is hard to adjust to the way of life here
The endless paperwork just to sign on at the doctors, the shops opening hours. Missing the grandkids. Lots of people have become bitter and resentful as they have suffered at the hands of lawyers, builders, town halls and scammers.

Take your time, dont rush look around enjoy I love it here, I wouldnt move back, Im bringing my girls bi-lingual and they enjoy life to the fullest

[hartcjhart]

I do not understand the comments about cold winters and freezing houses.
I do not live in the mountains.
I have a wood burner in the kitchen and the whole house is warm all winter.
As for documents which are worthless.
Yes this has happened, but now everyone is more aware to get everything checked.
Most of the problems came with new builds and lawyers and builders who did not complete the legal process correctly.
Most re sale properties have no problems and it is easy to get a second opinion about the documents.
Don't be put off by the scaremongering. Most people have no problems, but of course check the area first, because what suits one person will not suit another.

spot on,more people are now aware(thanks to forums like this) of the legal shambles that has happened

[Tetley]

To be fair away from the paperwork minefeild,very few will want to invest anywere with a market thats dropped like a stone and is still failing.

when  intrest rates do go back up a little and you can leave your house capital in the bank then that will be a big help to paying a rental,plus in all honesty i think once you hit 70 plus folks need to be sticking to what they know and understand and not stuck in another EU  state struggling with translations for this and that and wearing themself down with the stress on it all.

:tiphat:

[Roger]

I do not understand the comments about cold winters and freezing houses.
I do not live in the mountains.
I have a wood burner in the kitchen and the whole house is warm all winter.
As for documents which are worthless.
Yes this has happened, but now everyone is more aware to get everything checked.
Most of the problems came with new builds and lawyers and builders who did not complete the legal process correctly.
Most re sale properties have no problems and it is easy to get a second opinion about the documents.
Don't be put off by the scaremongering. Most people have no problems, but of course check the area first, because what suits one person will not suit another.

[hojram]

Quite agree with Toecutter, we too came to Spain 13 years ago with early retirement and and great hopes of "Living  the Dream". The first few years were great we made lots of friends and enjoyed the Spanish way of life.  Unfortunately, after living with no mains water, mending the driveway (public farm track) every time it rained and no documentation for our property and no hope of ever getting any, the dream went sour.  Don't believe anything anyone tells you, not only the Spanish and leave a property in the UK. I don't want to be a pessimist but it can turn out a very expensive dream.

[TOECUTTER]

I definately wouldn´t buy in Spain at the moment, we have a property there and so wish we had rented and not bought!! - oh, if only we had known then what we know now!
The total mess that is the Spainsh property market WILL take YEARS to get sorted out (some people will probably die before they get their property legalised!!) - and just bear in mind that people like the Priors thought they HAD all the legal paperwork - until the Junta de Andalucia revoked it!! Be VERY CAREFUL!
Buyer Beware!!!
Sorry to be all doom and gloom - just realistic!
Now I am prepared for all the outraged comments from people who don´t want the bad stuff to be publicised!!!
Lisa J

Very good advice, as long as you remember that the documentation that you have, might as well be written on toilet paper for all it's worth, you should be just fine. Just don't trust anything anybody tells you. God willing I'm out of the country called sPAIN in under 3 weeks time. I wouldn't touch this country with a barge pole, and will never set foot in this place again. Any legal advice you need, you might just as well go to the local butcher, he'll have just as much idea as a solicitor. FOR GOD'S SAKE THINK THIS ONE THROUGH.

[awaywiththefairies]

Where are you from in Wales Please :clap:
[/quote]

North Wales near Bangor.  I love Spain but the winters I hate.  Never seemed to get warm enough the house at night sitting round covered in quilts and hot water bottles, which sounds fun and romantic but can wear a bit thin after the first few nights  :). Its ok in the day outside but come 5 pm that is it.  Many of the bars, shops and restaurants are cold as well. Try standing on Arboleas/Baza market at 7 am in the winter.

You know how people go on about it being a 'different kind of hot' in Spain/UK, you cannot exactly explain it but people who have lived in both countries know what you mean...well I think there is a 'different' kind of cold as well.   I recorded 6 degrees in my kitchen one morning!!

[ColinC]

you will get very different comments about the weather here because we live in an area with hills and mountains, so the temperature can change a lot.
I recall driving to Taberno in August to be surprised how cool it was compared with Arboleas.
And further up in Velez Blanco it can be very cold.
When driving from Arboleas to Granada in the summer the temperature drops a lot when up on the Baza plain.

Also it rains a lot more in Albox than Arboleas, and it is the next town, and only 100 meters higher.

I often watch the black clouds buikding up above Albox, only to see them disperse before reaching Arboleas.

I know, I'm biased.

Could be Roger!  :lol: We originally had a villa in Arboleas and then moved up to Taberno, for 2 reasons, Arboleas was getting quite built up (10 years ago) for us and has grown more since then, but each to their own! We moved to just outside Taberno for the peace and tranquil feel of the place and for the fac that it was a degree or two cooler here. Having the business directly between Arboleas and Albox we find Taberno a great retreat but an easy commute to all of the local towns, including of course Huercal Overa, in my view the nicest "large town" in the local area. I am sure as these people intend to rent in the first instance I am sure they will visit all these places and come to their own conclusions.. Good luck to them both..

[cougar]

No Roger,
It's the truth :clap:

[jill cockfield]

Please do not confuse Tabernas with Taberno, they are miles apart....Taberno is  about 15 minutes from Arboleas and 10 minutes from Albox. You would not be disappointed with Taberno.

[Roger]

you will get very different comments about the weather here because we live in an area with hills and mountains, so the temperature can change a lot.
I recall driving to Taberno in August to be surprised how cool it was compared with Arboleas.
And further up in Velez Blanco it can be very cold.
When driving from Arboleas to Granada in the summer the temperature drops a lot when up on the Baza plain.

Also it rains a lot more in Albox than Arboleas, and it is the next town, and only 100 meters higher.

I often watch the black clouds buikding up above Albox, only to see them disperse before reaching Arboleas.

I know, I'm biased.

[Hudders]

Wales?

[cougar]

Three Blind mice lives in Baza area ramblarider, its very cold there in winter.  But you only have to go up to Oria to find a completely different climate to Arboleas.  We had some snow every winter I lived there and frost many mornings.  One winter we were snowed in for four/five days with no electric.  I can honestly say I have at times been colder in Spain than the Uk and I am from Wales.

As far as giving it a year is concerned, I have over the years spoken to many couples where one loves Spain and the other does not.  Usually both like it to start with and the realization creeps up slowly on one, that Spain is not for them.  I, and I am sure others know of relationships breaking down over this. Coupled with having a house you cannot sell it is not a good situation.  Those 'cheap' houses are going to be around for some time yet!

Where are yoy from in Wales Please :clap:

[Three Blind Mice]

I have lived in my cave for more than 5 years, and it's as near as dammit 20 deg average over the year.

Granted it's colder in the winter, I have a woodstove which heats the whole cave, no need for air con, just leave the doors open.

As for light, I have a front and back door, both with glass in them, quite a few windows, which actually let in daylight.

Would never contemplate living in a house ever again, different folks etc.

We had -12 here last winter, would be about 900 mts.

As for scotland being colder, in the mountains up Ballater way, yes, the central belt really doesn't get that cold in reality.

[awaywiththefairies]

Three Blind mice lives in Baza area ramblarider, its very cold there in winter.  But you only have to go up to Oria to find a completely different climate to Arboleas.  We had some snow every winter I lived there and frost many mornings.  One winter we were snowed in for four/five days with no electric.  I can honestly say I have at times been colder in Spain than the Uk and I am from Wales.

As far as giving it a year is concerned, I have over the years spoken to many couples where one loves Spain and the other does not.  Usually both like it to start with and the realization creeps up slowly on one, that Spain is not for them.  I, and I am sure others know of relationships breaking down over this. Coupled with having a house you cannot sell it is not a good situation.  Those 'cheap' houses are going to be around for some time yet!

[ramblarider]

It's probably colder here than Scotland in the winter.

Uh? -Low temperatures of -27C have been recorded in Scotland. -20C regularly.

Lowest was -1.5C here last winter, and that at 600m. The very lowest here (also at 600m) was 4 years ago, at -8C overnight.

Chilly, yes - but no comparison at all.

[cougar]

Done some research in the past, and agents will tell you temps are constant at around 20 -22 degrees.
In reality they are more like 16-18 so you will still need additional heating.
You also don't get the sun and lighting you would in a normal house as it's a CAVE

[jill cockfield]

Agree with Big Baz, we live near Taberno, it has a chemist, 2 bars, bakery, bank, allotments and is one of the most beautiful Spanish villages, a few Brits but not many....gorgeous x

[webejamin]

Lisa j's advice is good, all the illegal owners only found out after they purchased the property, many, some years after. Most lawyers are not really up to it, they weren't then and I can't see why they should be now. Being correct and fully competent in Spain is not the same as the UK, it's just how they have evolved, their culture.  :tiphat:

[Three Blind Mice]

It's probably colder here than Scotland in the winter.

No problems with cold or heat in the cave though, they stay as near as dammit, a constant 22 deg all year round.

Many brits have left to go home, no work in the main, still a fair few left.

Where ever you decide, enjoy.

[Hudders]

Just looked at Tabernas & Baza - a little too rustic for me!   :-\  Surely not every villa for sale will have legal problems. So many people are mentioning it - that, or the fact that what is legal today, may be rescinded next day??