In the news...Albox

[Tetley]

and your point is??????

That were Brits in somebody elses land and we stick together,and  not pontificate on other Brits down fail / fall,just because were home owning in Arboleas.

[mercedes]

and your point is??????

[Tetley]

Thanks for the input Roger and you summarise the present situation accurately. Some people in other areas do feel that here in Arboleas some have an "I'm alright Jack" outlook. But that opinion overlooks the years of worry and concerns a significant number of ex-pat residents/owners have  suffered in the past as residents of Arboleas and it's mainly through the efforts of those ex=pat Councillors, who now have some authority, that the problems of the majority have been and for a minority, are hopefully in the near future, being resolved. 
As for the remainder of the Almanzora Valley I fear that unless there is a general "pardon" for past illegal building the owners face further years of uncertainty, causing distress and financial risk. As I've posted before whilst I  have the greatest sympathy for anyone in that position, I cannot allow their terrible plight to impinge on everyday life. I am thankful that we bought in Arboleas, grateful that we have people who have given up their retirement and/or free time to fight our cause - hopefully successfully- and they continue to improve our village environment. I have not lost sight of the wider picture in the Valley and how that effects all of us, not least in the value of property but equally it does not stop me from being grateful for what we have and continue to enjoy, on a daily basis. 

personally speaking, ref your previous post on this subject ref im alright in" Arobleas".... i think you have just shown your self up .

[mercedes]

Thanks for the input Roger and you summarise the present situation accurately. Some people in other areas do feel that here in Arboleas some have an "I'm alright Jack" outlook. But that opinion overlooks the years of worry and concerns a significant number of ex-pat residents/owners have  suffered in the past as residents of Arboleas and it's mainly through the efforts of those ex=pat Councillors, who now have some authority, that the problems of the majority have been and for a minority, are hopefully in the near future, being resolved. 
As for the remainder of the Almanzora Valley I fear that unless there is a general "pardon" for past illegal building the owners face further years of uncertainty, causing distress and financial risk. As I've posted before whilst I  have the greatest sympathy for anyone in that position, I cannot allow their terrible plight to impinge on everyday life. I am thankful that we bought in Arboleas, grateful that we have people who have given up their retirement and/or free time to fight our cause - hopefully successfully- and they continue to improve our village environment. I have not lost sight of the wider picture in the Valley and how that effects all of us, not least in the value of property but equally it does not stop me from being grateful for what we have and continue to enjoy, on a daily basis. 

[Bowel Bugle]

Purely out of interest...
I read at the beginning of this thread, that a local builder (Culprit) now lives in a big house on a large walled estate in Arboleas...? Is it possible that someone could tell me who it is without going against the forums rules? I'm just wondering if it's the same guy that relieved us of a large chunk of our life savings.......
Thanks in advamce  ;)

[Tetley]

Realy Rog,thats it in a nutshell ,every xxxx xxs just done what they wanted,when they wanted in the big houses for the past 15 years and here we are today......

as regards  to folks sorting there own area,s politicaly,the Brits carnt,unless it Arboleas,ie because of the amount of non sp citz in there  area.

as regards Arboleas ,well it aint over till the fat lady sings,so let hope yer get 14 & 15 sorted asap,because the present team ARE  improving the village daily,wich is all that can be asked.

:tiphat:

[Roger]

The simple fact is this.
Some Mayors and Ayuntamientos think that they are the planning authority.
They are not.
They think that they can classify an area from Rustic to Urban simply by having a map on the Mayors desk.
Then they show people the map, including architects and abogados (who should know better) and the area is deemed urban.
The Mayor sometimes deludes himself that he can then issue licences to build on this fictional "urban" land.

The process to convert Rustic land to Urban land is detailed and complex, as is the process to re designate green belt lend in the UK.
The Ayuntamiento is responsible for producing the proposal in the form of an Urban Plan.
This then goes to all the interested agencies, including the Regional Government (the Junta) which is the ultimate planning authority.
This includes a lot of documents back and forth as the details are clarified and corrected.
Ultimately IF the plan fits within the parameters of the Regional Plan (the POTA) and the law as detailed in the LOUA (the law of urban regulation of Andalucia) the land will ultimately be classified as urban by the Junta.
At this final stage the classification is permanent and enshrined in law.
Before this final stage it is just a figment of the local mayor's imagination.

The local Ayuntamiento is responsible for ensuring that building only takes place on urban land with a licence issued and registered by the Ayuntamiento, approved by the senior councillors in a committee called the Junta de Gobierno.
The Town Hall is also responsible for policing building developments.

The problem we face here, and in much of Andalucia, is that the Ayuntamiento has often failed in its legal obligations.
The result is
Mayors and Councillors facing legal prosecution by the public prosecutor, and legal action by the Junta against the Town Council and the builders for ignoring building laws.
In all this the Junta gets the blame, when the primary culprits were the local Ayuntamiento.
AND WE HAVE A VOTE TO DECIDE EVERY 4 YEARS WHO THAT WILL BE.
It would have been better in the other towns if people with problems did what we did in Arboleas.
Kick out the culprits, instead of continually moaning about it on this forum.
When I discovered the problems in Arboleas (although they did not affect me because I was OK (jack!)) in October 2009 I joined with others to create a political alternative.
The rule in life is, don't wait for someone else to sort out your problems. Get off your backside because the ONLY solution is political change.

That is my final comment on this thread.
I have enough to do and if Arboleas residents have a problem (and a lot still do) they know where to find me and my colleagues.

[Tetley]

Arboleas is in the Almanzora valley and not on another planet

must be just me then.... nanu nanu citizens.... ;D

[lisa j]

But Fickle, Roger has already been contributing to this post!!
Arboleas is in the Almanzora valley and not on another planet .......issues in surrounding areas will affect it in some ways!
And Tetley .... I hope you had a straight face when you were replying to the previous posts by Fickle and Mercedes!!!!
Beam me up Scotty!  :crazy:

PS I know this IS the Arboleas forum - but you don´t HAVE to be from planet Arboleas to contribute.....surely if that was the case it would be a very insular forum! People from the surrounding areas may make the occasional interesting contribution, I´m sure.

Lisa j  :tiphat:

[webejamin]

Nice that someone should say "Sorry" to Roger. He does have enough on his plate in Arboleas without being asked to resolve or even comment on issues elsewhere, maybe we should show more consideration and reframe from posting him questions about other areas?

Totaly agree Mercs   :clap:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: it's getting better as the day goes on :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Tetley]

Nice that someone should say "Sorry" to Roger. He does have enough on his plate in Arboleas without being asked to resolve or even comment on issues elsewhere, maybe we should show more consideration and reframe from posting him questions about other areas?

Totaly agree Mercs   :clap:

[mercedes]

Nice that someone should say "Sorry" to Roger. He does have enough on his plate in Arboleas without being asked to resolve or even comment on issues elsewhere, maybe we should show more consideration and reframe from posting him questions about other areas?

[Tetley]

To be honest this is why i have asked Roger to give us his legal explanation ,because it is causing confusion in Arboleas as it is in other area,s,but in Arboleas we are all very fortunate that Roger is at the helm on the home registration & legalisation and  information ........ however other area,s of the valle  are planly lacking.

:tiphat:

Maybe if you started a new topic, he might answer, as this is about ALBOX, and Roger has no say what happens there.

Good point,we carnt possible expext him to answer,he has enough on this end,sorry Rog   :tiphat:

[Fickle]

To be honest this is why i have asked Roger to give us his legal explanation ,because it is causing confusion in Arboleas as it is in other area,s,but in Arboleas we are all very fortunate that Roger is at the helm on the home registration & legalisation and  information ........ however other area,s of the valle  are planly lacking.

:tiphat:

Maybe if you started a new topic, he might answer, as this is about ALBOX, and Roger has no say what happens there.

[Tetley]

To be honest this is why i have asked Roger to give us his legal explanation ,because it is causing confusion in Arboleas as it is in other area,s,but in Arboleas we are all very fortunate that Roger is at the helm on the home registration & legalisation and  information ........ however other area,s of the valle  are planly lacking.

:tiphat:

[Tonica]

Our villa is one of the most recent case to have been heard in Grandad & had the license REVOKED. yes its under  Zurgena & NOT Arboleas. Yes our villa was built on rustic land with several others thats why the licenses have been revoked, but I ask this .... Why has the catastrol office billed us for URBAN land. I will tell you. They get their information from the townhall. The townhall tells them its URBAN land when in fact its rustic. Reason being Urban IBI is higher rate then Rustic. Another reason in OUR case ( Zurgena) if a certain person admitted these properties were on rustic land its as good as he has admitted of a crime. If we are not demolished we then have the job of appealing to the catastral for a reduction of IBI. Now that will be fun. My main point being is the townhall may state you are URBAN but the Jaunta of Andulcia may have other ideas.

[Tetley]

intresting this rustic & urban shuufle.

perhaps if Rogers is on the panel he can  legally expain to us all how people on rustic land in Arboleas  have been " IBI  plot segrigated "  (wile there home is sat on rustic land), onto  Urban land even tho its rustic without a segrigation licence and  has no pre urbanisation infrastructer in place.

basikly you carnt segrigate rustic plots for building ,it has to be within the town plan and serviced then segrigated with an urban segrigation licence & taxes payed.

gen question Rog as its a confussed .com one this.

TVM   :tiphat:

[digifidd]

Claire 32, my take on it is that the developer knew he was never going to be granted permissions as it is agricultural land so he built them anyway, hoping that the old 4 year rule would apply. He got greedy, wanted the dosh sooner rather than later and somehow got it put on Catastral reg as urban! He was paying IBI on it before we bought. Seprona knew of the development in 2005/6, when we were first looking.
Yes, some town halls did and still are letting people down.

I think people will buy in the area if they have a mind to, regardless of our very differing views.   

To be honest, you guys who are trying to sell a legal home have a very positive advantage on  your side...HOPE!

[claire23]

Digifidd, from what you have explained it is the fact that the builder did not gain planning permission to build, not that the property is on rustic or urban land.  I have great sympathy for your situation and it is awful that the builder has got away with it.  This is a similar situation to what Roger has been describing for Arboleas where those properties that are illegal, built on urban land but without building permission are being sorted out.  
It is not a case of wanting additional paperwork it is making sure that all the appropriate paperwork is in place. Which is what Roger and the Town Hall are doing and then applying for correct paperwork when it is missing.  It is a great pity that other town halls are not following the excellent example set by Arboleas.  It would help put an end to the misery suffered by some.

One final comment to Saint, he is trying to sell his house and then rent here.  How is he going to sell it if he keeps telling people to rent rent rent?

[NormanM]

What better time to buy in Arboleas than now!  Properties that are legal and cheap - a long term investment opportunity I think.

[bigbaz]

byrney
u r wrong yet again

[lisa j]

You are so right Richard!
And now, before I risk spreading more doom, gloom and despondency I am off to prepare for an afternoon of rugby, which is sure to cheer me up!  Go Wales!!

Lisa j  :-X

[rt21]

:handshake

Extremely well put Digifidd.
I hope for Arboleas sake that Roger can sort out the issues there - but still a few in the queue yet Roger.
Still doesn´t help people in the rest of Spain though eh? So Spain is definately a place where no-one should buy unless they exercise EXTREME caution - which is all we doom and gloomers have been saying!

We go over and over this issue - unfortunately nothing changes! It seems to be a case of the Í´m alright Jack, so shut up so we can sell our properties versus the Buyer beware this could happen to you, camps. I despair of chances of a solution coming in our lifetime. :head

Lisa J

The problem is Lisa that there are people on both sides that are passionate and unfortunately oil and water do not mix.


Richard

[lisa j]

 :handshake

Extremely well put Digifidd.
I hope for Arboleas sake that Roger can sort out the issues there - but still a few in the queue yet Roger.
Still doesn´t help people in the rest of Spain though eh? So Spain is definately a place where no-one should buy unless they exercise EXTREME caution - which is all we doom and gloomers have been saying!

We go over and over this issue - unfortunately nothing changes! It seems to be a case of the Í´m alright Jack, so shut up so we can sell our properties versus the Buyer beware this could happen to you, camps. I despair of chances of a solution coming in our lifetime. :head

Lisa J

[digifidd]

Roger: 

My house is classed as urban on the Catastral register, but it most definitely on rustic land.  In fact, topographically, my Catastral reference is inaccurate - the plot on the register is about half a mile east of where the house actually is.  It is not on an approved PGOU and not likely to be, especially as it comes under the Albox town hall jurisdiction.  It is in a small rural development created by our developer on his almond and olive grove.

We have a registered  escritura for land and house but it is not legal as the developer (our Spanish neighbour) did not get permission to build.  He is well known to the town hall but never been prosecuted for his planning crimes.

Even you say that lawyers don't understand planning regulations.  They certainly don't understand property law and how it is supposed to work hand in hand with planning regulations.  What hope is there for a prospective purchaser with those kind of bad lottery odds?

The Arboleans are lucky that your administration is trying to do things right..NOW, but the repercussions from the past have a great relevance on people buying now.

Why shouldn't new purchasers demand more paperwork from people wanting to sell?  They don't want to get stuck with an uncertain financial future, for themselves or their children and why should they?

What some posters are saying, is that those urban land classifications mean diddly squat until the Junta deigns to approve a town hall's innovacions.  As you, yourself have admitted, this takes years and a lot of hard work to get it to that blissful state of legal completion.

You are doing your level best to sort it but the Junta applies laws inconsistently and without much common sense to the current situation caused by their own past, bad practices and indifference to a spiralling mess.

Not many lay people who are thinking of buying in Spain would consider that they need to know planning regulations and property law in such detail, they would put their faith and trust in town halls and lawyers to know their jobs!! Not an unreasonable expectation I think, but certainly not one that is backed up in Spanish law or ethics.

Caution is needed.  Common sense is key.  Surely, that is what many people accuse us 'illegal house owners' of not having exercised when we bought all those years ago and got caught out?   You can't have it both ways.

[byrney]

"Byrney, stop insulting people who have lost everything".  I have to reply Baz.

I think if you have ever troubled to read my posts, you will find that I have been consistent in my support of, and sadness for, all those poor people who bought in good faith and have lost financially, emotionally, and medically, through no fault of their own.

I was merely making a point that some people had "invested" in the area on the back of low property costs, in the hope that they would make a profit at some time in the future when the Spanish woke up to what assets they truly had.

If the cap doesn't fit, then don't wear it!

[lisa j]

I think my point was that as the Priors had Town Hall Permissions, they THOUGHT, and were led to believe by the Town Hall when it was built, that it was legal - a similar situation to many people, but a far more dreadful outcome for the poor Priors - understandable then that people keep ´bringing it up´, as one poster said!
Sorry Richard, I probably didn´t explain it very well in the beginning!  :tiphat:
Lisa j

[Roger]

Regarding the comment from "openyoureyes"
If this is what your lawyer told you I suggest you change your lawyer.

These web sites are rarely accurate and always out of date.
Many Spanish lawyers do not understand urban planning law, that is why so many of their clients are in a mess.

The Catastro Office (an official department of the central government) has currently registered all the houses in Arboleas as URBAN.
The official Urban Planning Map registered in the Official Boletin of Almeria by the Junta shows all the houses registered as URBAN, with the exception of the 270 which are in the process of urbanising.

This registration cannot change.
When people say that one day it is urban and the next it is rustic is due to a simple reason.
The lawyer or the town hall tells you it is urban, when in fact they are lying.
Passing a plan in the local town hall does not make it urban.
You have to go through the full urban planning process, getting approval by all the various regional government agencies, and finally get official approval from the Junta Planning Department.
It takes a long time and a lot of work.
In Arboleas we did this with Innovation 13. We are now carrying out the same process with Innovation 14.
It takes several years of hard detailed work, but in the end you have official legal registration of the land as urban.
It is the only correct way to do it.
In Arboleas we understand this, and I have been totally transparent and have explained the process in detail for Arboleas residents.
I am sorry if others do not understand.

[rt21]

Hi Lisa

your impression that it was all to do with the classification of land is in line with what I have read also.

The article I read stated that the Junta's case was that the Town Hall issued a building licence  for a property on land that was not urban and therefore the licence was not legal because licences can only be issued in line with the Junta's Regional Planning Regulations.

Richard

[lisa j]

 :wave
Hi Richard,
I, like many, was under the impression that it was a rustic v urban land issue - but if you know better then I bow to your greater knowledge, thanks for the info. But for whatever reason the house was demolished ( a bit drastic in my opinion, as surely another solution could have been reached by the powers that be?!), whilst having paperwork issued by the Town Hall which was revoked by the Junta -  it could , in effect, be the tip of the iceberg as many, many homeowners could find themselves in that situation, surely?
Byrney, I honestly don´t come on here meaning to spread doom and gloom , just facts - we have a home in the Valley, we don´t want to sell, can´t anyway - but living with even the threat of proceedings against your home, which you love and is EVERYTHING you´ve worked for ALL your life - is , as Digifidd so eloquently says, completely soul destroying! It is hard to just get on and ignore it! I never want to see anyone walk into this situation without being aware of what CAN happen. All we wanted was to live happily and securely in our home, amongst our Spanish neighbours - after getting all planning permissions etc etc etc and going by the book, or so we thought. Was that too much to ask?  ???
People need to hear the good and bad, and make up their own minds accordingly! Spain should be a wonderful place to live - what a shame they can´t or won´t get their act together and sort this out!
Lisa j




Lisa j

[webejamin]

Yes lisa j, they would, and do, but that doesn't mean they are bad people of course  :whistle: because once they've sold up, they'll be just like anybody else. "Well, they should have checked it out better".  :tiphat:

[rt21]

and whilst around 90% of housing there may be legal now (but on past form that could change surely, look at the Priors case!) there are more in a queue waiting to be regularised(!!) but this may or may not happen.

Lisa

Although I agree with most of your well written post, the only view that I do not share with you concerns the above. From what I have read the building licence issued by the Town Hall to the Priors was never legal as it did not conform to Regional (Junta's) Planning Regulations.


Richard

[lisa j]

Just  a comment on Claire32´s post early on in this thread about Arboleas.
Arboleas property is only the TINIEST proportion of the housing stock in Spain ......and whilst around 90% of housing there may be legal now (but on past form that could change surely, look at the Priors case!) there are more in a queue waiting to be regularised(!!) but this may or may not happen.
Arboleas may suit some but certainly not all, so advising and hoping (for those who are desperate to sell!) that everyone should big it up and get buyers there, would not solve the issue. There ARE some issues there, and in the surrounding areas, just like many towns.
The housing scandal effects Spain as a whole, not just the Almanzora valley (of which Arboleas is a tiny fraction), and as Roger freely admits, most other Town Halls do not give a hoot about sorting the mess out. It may be negative (and exagerated) publicity in the Daily Mail, Express, Telegraph etc etc BUT, that information MUST get out to the masses ....only when Spain is hit in its pocket because buyers and investors stay away, will the problem be addressed. And surely, as I and many others have said many times before , people have the  right to hear the good AND bad about the dire situation out there and make up their own minds whether to take the plunge - its tough if it affects anyone´s chances of selling. After all, people wouldn´t want to inflict their problems on other poor buyers just to get out of Spain surely ...............or would they?????

[webejamin]

Yea Tetley I'm up fer dat ;D not bad here, 8c and overcast, no wind. Havin an Indian tonight so plenty of wind forecast for Manana por la manana (can't do the squiggly bits) ;D :tiphat:

[Tetley]

Morning Jammin,nice this end,im turning pins tiday on lath,so if yer can stop em all from verbally assalting each other,il bi back abought 5pm and wi can mebee get Merc out and have a ferum run round.... ;D

:tiphat: