Calling ALL forum members for your veiw

[jabba the cat]

Just a thought that most people here in the Uk just want to work,buy a house get married have kids save enough to live comfortably have a holiday and generally get on with living all of which they have a say on.
The EU has its stands at the moment proves by all the comments on here that maybe you need to be legal lawyer to understand the Laws/rules and regulation being brought in weekly on behalf of the EU.(Thats where the half truths start )
Eventuality it will drown its self in the amount of legislation its keeps bringing in and people now see that their life is starting to change in different ways.
 
The Lab/Con have IMO over the years since 1975 have never explained what their aim was regarding the EU so resentment starts to built up and UKIP are the passing band wagon for the people to show their disapproval at what is happening to their Country, Town and their life in general and most of the venom is directed at Government's past and present for allowing uncontrolled immigration which I see is causing the resentment. :tiphat:
                     
   

   

[mercab]

This has gone from a debate about leaving the EU to UKIP becoming main political party which they never will. Deporting around eight million people might just be against the human rights act.Nice turn around.

[webejamin]

First of all, the UKIP party won't be in power after the next election, so none of these scaremongering claims will be enforced.
Second, if the UK did decide to leave the EU after a referendum, so be it, the people will have decided (wrongly in my view)but that's life.
In such an event there would be no BOOTING OUT, but just as in Spain or any other country that migrants were not entitled to live and work, they could be told to leave if the government decided to go down that road. That won't happen in the UK though, coz the fat cats will still need their ultra cheap labour, whoever is in power.
I think the easiest way to leave the EU will be to vote for the Tories at the next general election and get the promised referendum :tiphat:

[NormanM]

Nice one Jodee!  But really, is that the kind of party you want in charge of your country?

Good riddance you say.  Why?

Have a look at what Ramblarider is telling you, for goodness sake!

[ramblarider]

The "chaos" angle of leaving has been insufficiently highlighted by all the mainstream parties so far. I think only now are beginning to wake up to a) just how dangerous Farage is, and b) how foolish it has been not to counter the constant drip of toxic lies about the EU propagated by the press. The result is a UK population with a significant percentage not even able to distinguish the truth from the fiction.

As already noted, there are roughly 2.3 million EU citizens living and working in the UK. Many of these have been there for years. They have jobs. Houses. Cars. Children. Families. Yet, it is the official policy of UKIP to remove their right to be there, and (retrospectively!) subject them to ill-defined "tests" and "preconditions" before they stood even a chance of being "allowed" to remain. To give an example, they could have been there 6 years and 11 months, yet Farage's lot would then DENY them the right to remain. They would be forced to leave. Leave their jobs, houses... everything. This is vicious, repugnant and outrageous. It is the act of brutal thugs (dressed up nicely). Only if they had been there for over 7 years would they even have the "possibility" of requesting permission to remain, and even then, only under "certain" (not defined) conditions, one of which is they would have to "qualify" for work permits (presumably on the same basis as any other non-EU foreigner - and those are very, very hard to get). So, you are looking at the UK "booting out" (forcibly, if necessary according to some UKIP candidates), over 2 million people!  This is utterly insane.... not only is is crazy from the financial point of view (many of these despised 'foreigners' run successful business, are employers themselves, and have houses and families in the UK - as well as mortgage debts), but large number of the would be very angry and upset indeed (and I am putting that mildly). As Gus-Lopez has said, rightly in my view, it would lead to riots approaching civil war levels. What does Farage propose to "make" them leave if they do not want to? Loaded into cattle trucks at gunpoint? Laws introduced to ban their businesses? Employers banned from hiring them? Anyone who thinks they would just say "OK, fair enough, we'll go quietly" has no grasp of the reality.

The rose-tinted view of things from some in Spain is incredible. So many seem to be under a delusion that they would be insulated from all this!!!  :crazy: :crazy:

I guarantee you - if the UK started kicking out EU citizens on their territory, the rest of the EU would retaliate. They would have no choice in the matter.

Already, Switzerland voted to introduce 'quotas', thereby breaching the free movement principle. Has this been ignored by the rest of the EU? No. They have already retaliated and banned Swiss Citizens from taking advantage of various advantages that were available previously, including educational opportunities.
"We will not negotiate on the principle of free movement. That is non-negotiable."  is the official EU response - and this is before the Swiss have even implemented anything yet. They have been told straight out that they face trade embargoes, cancellation of major business and trade agreements and increasing isolation if they go ahead. Their economy, highly dependent on the EU, faces ruin as a consequence.

[jodee]

Well, once I have my Scottish passport, and Scotland is in the EU, I won't have to worry, will I?  Can't you Little Englanders see what a withdrawal from the EU would mean to you if you live in Spain? Open your eyes, for goodness sake!

After you've all voted for independence  :clap: (good riddance) it'll take some time for the transition, then..
1) You have to get your Scottish passport
2) Scotland has to apply to join the EU AND be accepted.
3) They'll then have to wait a few years before they let you in, so
4) Not in your lifetime bud... (I do hope so, but don't see the above happening within the next 20 years), dream on for your great-grandkids
:tiphat:

[webejamin]

Saw Farage on the box last night, most of the program was taken up getting stuck into him by all on the panel, but he faired well I think against them all.
Whenever he spoke the truth, they were on him with fluffy rebukes, it was such a bad show by the others on the panel, I turned it off :tiphat:

[NormanM]

Well, once I have my Scottish passport, and Scotland is in the EU, I won't have to worry, will I?  Can't you Little Englanders see what a withdrawal from the EU would mean to you if you live in Spain? Open your eyes, for goodness sake!

Or there again maybe some of you really would prefer a homophobic, racist, anti-semitic, misogynistic party running your country. Bring back the blackshirts and all will be well - until they come for YOU!

[webejamin]

I must apologise for not adding something at the end of my post that it was not aimed at normal people. I am truly sorry Tetley if you, or anyone else for that matter should feel smitten by my post :tiphat:

PS You can't judge a book by looking at the cover, but AJ would be a good choice  :tiphat:

[Tetley]

One thing that's holding you all back into the argument about in or out of the EU is, at heart you're all Tories and can see no further than your own noses. UKIP is only a threat to you, we know this because Cameron has appealed to your right wing principles and promised you a referendum on EU membership. This only came about with the emergence of UKIP and the pressure they caused.
If the Tories get back in at the next general election, the whole term will be taken up with negotiations on a better, more suitable to the fat cats deal. You won't see any referendum until towards the end of the term.
In the mean time, the UK will go further down the pan with more severe cuts, worse than we've seen before. The NHS will possibly collapse from neglect, more people will lose their jobs, the only jobs available will be zero hours and less than minimum pay, just like they are now, but worse. Then you will see real strife, like you've never seen before. at moment UKIP are a bunch of pussycats, scratching at the door.
What has the UK or the EU government ever done to ease the plight of EU citizens living in Spain, trapped in the property scam that was created by a corrupt EU member state?
The fat cats will just get fatter and we will all just get worse off.
There is another way to guarantee saving yourselves from all this misery being spouted on the forum and you all know what it is :tiphat:          

Jammin thats a good post apart from caling us all Torys....i voted for Thatcher ,im not voting for Camron...... id vote for Cable And Clegg if they were running the Labour party,id also vote labour if Alan Jonstone was running it,Labours last term was ok..... apart from lax banking and lax intrest rates controls wich caused a bank bust.... the rest of it was same political shxt diffrent day and there is nothing to choose from any of them,wich is why no bxgger votes.

:tiphat:

[sailor]

Morning Felipe. My reason for voting for UKIP is as follows.

I get the feeling that the EU bureaucracy wants to create a "United States Of Europe" I voted to join a Common Market but things have changed beyond all that and I am not comfortable with that.
I do not want my English Identity subsumed into a European State and therefore I shall be voting UKIP and to leave the EU in any subsequent referendum.

Regards  :tiphat:

[webejamin]

One thing that's holding you all back into the argument about in or out of the EU is, at heart you're all Tories and can see no further than your own noses. UKIP is only a threat to you, we know this because Cameron has appealed to your right wing principles and promised you a referendum on EU membership. This only came about with the emergence of UKIP and the pressure they caused.
If the Tories get back in at the next general election, the whole term will be taken up with negotiations on a better, more suitable to the fat cats deal. You won't see any referendum until towards the end of the term.
In the mean time, the UK will go further down the pan with more severe cuts, worse than we've seen before. The NHS will possibly collapse from neglect, more people will lose their jobs, the only jobs available will be zero hours and less than minimum pay, just like they are now, but worse. Then you will see real strife, like you've never seen before. at moment UKIP are a bunch of pussycats, scratching at the door.
What has the UK or the EU government ever done to ease the plight of EU citizens living in Spain, trapped in the property scam that was created by a corrupt EU member state?
The fat cats will just get fatter and we will all just get worse off.
There is another way to guarantee saving yourselves from all this misery being spouted on the forum and you all know what it is :tiphat:          

[lmj52]

Some of the comments made here are truly unbelievable. People seem to be so ignorant of the effect that leaving the EU will have on them as foreigners living in Spain. These people are walking amongst us!
Well done RR and others, for educating the masses. Unfortunately it will be difficult to alter people's perception as they are too stupid to understand!
Just my opinion of course.

[zilnor]

There are approximately 1 million British people living in Spain. This figure includes both those who live there permanently and those who have a second home. The majority are retired and some are on modest incomes. But they all have to buy food, pay household bills, put fuel in their cars, replace worn clothing and all manage to buy a few beers and coffees every week.  So if all Brits had to return to UK some parts of Spain would lose much of their business. Albox and Arboleas are two small examples. Why would the Spanish want to lose this income, any more than the UK would want to lose business from Spanish people living in the UK ?

I confess to not being a fan of the 21st century EU but I believe that we now have no choice but to stay in.

RR and Felipe make very valid points and unfortunately not all of us like to hear the actual facts.  :wave

[felipe]

And the UK do not implement the ones that they can when it comes to immigration. Instead they let everyone one in if they show an EU passport.  For those of you that have never used it, go and have a look. EVERYTHING you want to know is there and searching for it is straightforward. http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/justice_freedom_security/free_movement_of_persons_asylum_immigration/l33152_en.htm

[mercab]

EU rules that's a laugh countries break them if it suits.

[gus-lopez]

Load of rubbish and scaremongering imo where has anybody seen or read obout every person being deported it works both ways you know how many Spanish ect live in the uk who would also be liable for deportation show me anywhere that has been said or written.

You obviously don't read all the posts ?  :whistle:
Try my post at top of this page. Page 2.
It isn't a question of scaremongering or who has said what . It is the law; EU rules. As soon as the UK voted to leave ALL UK citizens would become NON -EU & so would be required to comply with the rules appertaining to aquiring residency in an EU country. This , as any US, Canadian, Aussie, Etc; can only be applied for at the consulate in your own country.
Additionally , as I posted originally, at the instant of the UK even looking to hold a referendum the EU would be ensuring that it became as hard as possible using all the legislation available to them & putting the pressure on the other countries.
I know a small amount about EU/UK/spanish laws & how the interact. IF I was in charge @ the first sign of the UK having a referendum I'd be instructing  all the EU countries to remember what they should be doing in the way of EU rules. I'd be ensuring that all countries were pointing out what an 'out' vote would lead to  in the way of UK citizens/trading/business, etc. Long before the vote you'd have businesses making plans to leave etc. Long before the vote the damage done to the UK economy & the unknown effects of after an out vote would  be an absolute disaster.
That's just me; think of what the shadowy figures are already doing to ensure that there U.S. of Europe continues to be implemented.

[Tetley]

The main reason i want to leave the EU....... :o  is that a Polish chap has taken my fitters job,my family are from Norway........ and we were here first,O and a beer swilling, ciggy smokeing posh banker  mush,has told me on the properganda box that everybody note borne in  the UK  is steeling our jobs and money.

harra harra.... long live England and Yorkshire and Asda  on hessle road..........    O0

[ramblarider]

It is NOT "scaremongering" and is not "rubbish". It is the legal reality! It is the natural consequence of UKIP's policies. Stop and think about it for a moment, instead of engaging in wildly optimistic guesswork.

Do you seriously think that if the UK left the EU and began banning EU citizens from entry and removing their rights to live and work there (they would do this - because otherwise, what is the point in leaving?) that the countries who's citizens were affected would just sit idly by and say to UK citizens in Spain "Carry on as before? It doesn't matter?"

Really? Is that what you think would happen? Of course not! No chance.

You ask "where has anybody seen or read anything about every person being deported?"

Well, non-EU citizens CAN be deported.   EU citizens cannot (except under very unusual circumstances). It is standard practice. Happens all the time.

Finally, you should read more of the literature produced by the party you say you want to vote for and listen to what some of their various candidates have been saying, e.g. "one should not shy away of contemplating forced repatriation"..... and from their 2010 Manifesto "EU citizens who arrived in UK after January 2004 will be treated as non-EU immigrants" (as nasty a piece of retrospective legislation I've ever seen). Finally, from their current policy statement:

"EU citizens who have been established in the UK for seven years or more will, depending on their circumstances, be able to apply for permanent leave to remain (provided they fulfill certain criteria and are eligible to apply for work permits)"

What "circumstances"? Being "able to apply" is not the same as being given consent... what "certain criteria"? Must be "eligible for work permits"....

Think of this in reverse. Now it applies to you in Spain. Not nice is it?

[felipe]

One thing I have noticed in the posts by those wanting top leave the EU is the lack of reasons why the UK should leave.  Immigration aside, what other reason do you all have for wanting to leave?  And that is the fault of the UK government for not implementing the rules that they are permitted to do as other EU countries have. 

So come on peeps, tell us why you want the UK out of the EU, but back up your argument with reasoning.  To those that reply, on both sides of the fence let's keep it civil and no snide comments or name calling.  That way we can get a reasoned debate going.

[mercab]

Load of rubbish and scaremongering imo where has anybody seen or read obout every person being deported it works both ways you know how many Spanish ect live in the uk who would also be liable for deportation show me anywhere that has been said or written.

[felipe]

That is why the people on here are for the eu it it's me me me.I live here and in my honest view the way forward for my children and grand children and the uk is out of it.The people on here who's posts do nothing but call the uk and how they would never return should shut up and put up.Change your nationality to Spanish you can do that if the uk is so bad and how you will never return.Then it will not make any difference how the vote goes if there is one.OH I also think that's a brilliant way to vote for the future of a country I own a house so must vote to stay in crap

You are missing the point.  There are numerous families living here that are of working age and school age that are settled in their lives here.  They own their own home here.  Most moved to Spain just as you probably did for the want of a 'better way of life'. For some, that turned into a disaster.  Either through an illegal home or the fact that they simply could not settle here and adapt to the Spanish way of life. Many of those are stuck here because they cannot sell.  They are a mixed group of people from pensioners down to 25 -30 year old's wanting to sell up and go back.

What chance for any of them if the vote is to leave the EU.  No where in this debate have I seen anyone decrying the UK as a reason to vote to stay in the EU.

It certainly is not a me, me, me situation. It is quite the opposite, thinking of everyone not just me. Hundreds of thousands of people having to return to the UK all at once would put a massive burden on the UK budget. The trauma it would cause would astronomical.  Families could be torn apart, many would be destitute, and who will help them out?  Not the government that's for sure. Unless they pass emergency legislation as a result of an exit vote of yes; which will help in the repatriation of expats.  That would cost millions and probably end up on your tax bill.  Which in the long term would affect your children and grandchildren in just the way you do not want them to be.

[ramblarider]

I live here and in my honest view the way forward for my children and grand children and the uk is out of it.

So you had the freedom of choice to move here, but you want to deprive them of that choice? Because that is exactly what you would be doing. Their right to choose to live (or work) in any of 26 different countries with the minimum of bureaucratic hassle - gone.  No more freedom, because you will have voted it away for them.

If they want to live in say, France, they would have to comply with the same rules as someone from Morocco or the US. A hugely complex process and no guarantee of acceptance.

[Tetley]

If you live in Spain and own a house here then surely the vote has to be to stay in the EU? Voting to leave is shooting yourself in the foot.  Try selling your house and move back to the UK after the vote is to leave the EU.  Not a cat in hell's chance. Not with thousands of other having to do the same because they are being evicted as they have not rights to live here.

Most houses now are not worth as much as many have paid for them. Especially if you bought after 2005/6.  What value your house if the vote is to leave? A good number of people living here full time do not have a bolt hole back in the UK.

There would be tens of thousands of destitute expats flooding back to the UK demanding accommodation.  Possibly close to as big an influx of immigrants that are there now. Where will they all live?  Because as far as the UK government is concerned, we have all been out of the country for more than 6 months and are not entitled to any benefits or housing.

So anyone that owns a house in Spain or lives here and is voting to leave the EU needs to have a rethink about what they are doing.   Ot perhaps those that are saying they will vote UKIP are those that have already returned to the UK and not own a house here anymore.

Thank you Phil........infact this could be even bigger tha the illigal build situation ,ie there is one thig owning a home with no paperwork,it been worthless and not been on mains services...... that can be used...... as long as no dick head wants to kock it down........... it is a total diffrent ball game....... to have to jump through hoopes to even get into the country were its situated......  to live in it     :tiphat:

[mercab]

That is why the people on here are for the eu it it's me me me.I live here and in my honest view the way forward for my children and grand children and the uk is out of it.The people on here who's posts do nothing but call the uk and how they would never return should shut up and put up.Change your nationality to Spanish you can do that if the uk is so bad and how you will never return.Then it will not make any difference how the vote goes if there is one.OH I also think that's a brilliant way to vote for the future of a country I own a house so must vote to stay in crap

[felipe]

If you live in Spain and own a house here then surely the vote has to be to stay in the EU? Voting to leave is shooting yourself in the foot.  Try selling your house and move back to the UK after the vote is to leave the EU.  Not a cat in hell's chance. Not with thousands of other having to do the same because they are being evicted as they have not rights to live here.

Most houses now are not worth as much as many have paid for them. Especially if you bought after 2005/6.  What value your house if the vote is to leave? A good number of people living here full time do not have a bolt hole back in the UK.

There would be tens of thousands of destitute expats flooding back to the UK demanding accommodation.  Possibly close to as big an influx of immigrants that are there now. Where will they all live?  Because as far as the UK government is concerned, we have all been out of the country for more than 6 months and are not entitled to any benefits or housing.

So anyone that owns a house in Spain or lives here and is voting to leave the EU needs to have a rethink about what they are doing.   Ot perhaps those that are saying they will vote UKIP are those that have already returned to the UK and not own a house here anymore.

[Challenger 383]

I don't know how I would vote, perhaps you are better in with the rest, since the powers that be are determind to make Every country in the world a part of some trading block or other affiliated group. I agree with the other comments, that the UK will renegotiate a better deal, and in so doing lose some of its influence in the EU.
As for Scotland, personally I think they should stay with the Union for their own wellbeing. But a part of me also is really P***ed we the English weren't  asked how we felt,and whether we wanted Scotland to remain in the Union. I just hope their first minister has done his sums correctly, I for one hope that if they do go, a line is drawn and they fund themselves entirely. I wish the Scots,would understand the Uk is supposed to be a democracy, and more people live in London than Scotland and Wales combined, and the rest of England feels the same way as the Scots, that we think we get hard done by, but we just get on with it.......

[ramblarider]

I would like clarification as to whether you think it democratic (if you believe in that) that the president of the EU Commission should be elected by the people of the EU or not? This is a genuine question.

No, I do not think the president of the EU Commission should be elected by popular vote. It is a bureaucratic, non-partisan, functionary role, subordinate to the EU Parliament members of which are elected by popular vote. To give similar examples from the UK... the Speaker of the House of Parliament is not elected by popular vote, but by MP's votes. It is a very similar role and very similar process.

[sailor]

RR I hear your loud arguments and you have every right to them but please do not decry other peoples views and refrain from name calling as it only lowers the tone of the debate and makes it rather difficult to convert other people to your point of view.
I would like clarification as to whether you think it democratic (if you believe in that) that the president of the EU Commission should be elected by the people of the EU or not? This is a genuine question.

Regards   :tiphat:

PS I am voting UKIP and will vote to leave the EU if I get a referendum, just to let you know where I am coming from.

[zilnor]

John P.  thanks for this clip. The man is saying what many Brits would agree with.

[jabba the cat]

john P

Thanks for that made my day now we all see why people are frustrated here in the Uk we want a vote its that simple.

[zilnor]

Thanks for that Tetley. Reminded me  of why I voted for Maggie. We could do with another "Iron Lady, or man, instead of the spineless lot we have now.

[Tetley]

The thing is Jamms she was bang on the money with the EU  plus we had kids that could get married and by a home and pay for it within 25 years.

there are also plenty of young women in our univerities  and education whom now know because of Thatchers example that everything is possible with hard work.

:tiphat:

[webejamin]

Well,  :-[ I'm going to say it only ever once, never to be repeated and shall deny uttering these words, but here goes :-[ There were, on one or two occasions, times when I admired M M M  Maggie T T Thatcher for her stance on certain issues, that was one of them :o now I've said it :-[
God help me and save me I'm in for it now :o 

[Tetley]

Thanks for that Gus, I was busy having a baby then and missed it.
Mrs T was some lady. :wave

yer to be fair she had it bang on 25 years ago and at lot of us would still be chained to clocking on machimes without her free ing the UK  up and getting the self motivated grafters on the bikes and rolling the UK PLC  dice.

:tiphat: