What a dreadful site to see first thing on the news,when they showed you the night scenes it was like something you saw in the War.How anyone survived that is a miracle.
God bless them all.
You are right Gingernut. It's heartbreaking. Wee babies crying, oh Lord it doesn't bear thinking about. 😢😢😢😢
How awful. A terrible disaster.
RIP all those who did not survive. Much sympathy to all those affected.
Looks like all warnings were ignored, greed greed and more greed, too late to make amends now but after such a devastating event with what apoears to be many lives lost, heads should roll:-
https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/
Another very sad day for the United Kingdom.
FM
FM, well said. :clap:
Greed rules the world.
Yet again the British emergency services come together and do whatever is necessary to saves lives ,help the injured. and deal with a catastrophic and horrendous situation.
:bravo_2: :clap: :bravo_2:
Whoever allowed the cladding to be specified & passed as fit for a 27 storey building wants lynching. How can you install anything that can possibly be a fire risk even at elevated temperatures ? If it can happen it eventually will.
Just feel sorry for the people who have lost their lives /injured caused by someone elses greed & ignorance.
The cynic in me wonders whether a dodgy employee/councillor in the council planing department took a back hander ?
Whatever, those responsible must be brought to account and face a long prison term. IMO
Let us hope that the people that died suffocated before the flames got to them.
Terrible scenes, one can only imagine the pain and suffering the victims endured and what the future will be like for their relatives and those who survived. Makes you angry to contemplate how undervalued peoples lives appear to be. A full inquiry might reveal something different but, as has been suggested, I think we perhaps all know why such things happen. Greed, corruption, incompetence perhaps, but let's hope we are wrong.
Have just read the letters of concern sent by the action group in 2013 and 2014.
Smacks of backhanders to everyone concerned in permitting this renovation and have to include the fire brigade as well.
A disgraceful situation which I hope leads to manslaughter convictions plus the removal of all their work related pensions .
However what is the betting not only will this get swept under the carpet but all involved will end up being relocated to other positions because the flat dweller with the fridge, that started this catastrophe, will be blamed.
With all due respect hogs I never repeat the written word.
This " little gem " as you call it, was mentioned several times, LIVE on sky news this morning @ 7.30 am by the occupant living next door to the flat where the fire apparently started whose neighbour blamed his fridge malfunctioning as being the cause.
Now whether or not you, I or anyone else actually believes it , this was what was SAID.
So perhaps YOU had better think twice before making unsubstantiated accusations against others.
The tories will find ways of killing you, be it the lack of Police on the streets or the lack or regs so they can make more muney.
List of MPs who opposed tighter housing regs.
Includes a Mr D Cameron
https://twitter.com/socialistvoice/status/874978062219321345
Strange old thing today, I was talking with a neighbour about the fire in the news on the telly, he said "Oh I turned it off, it's all getting on me nerves lately, one disaster after another, It's all we see on the telly now and it goes on for days."
There's something in what he said, as callous as it sounds, we do seem to be getting almost used to terrible things happening. When I turn on the news, it's not as shocking any more, I almost expect some terrible thing to have occurred.
Hogs,
:bravo_2:
Already said earlier that the London emergency services are the best in the world. :clap:
Was aware of this Hogsy as you have mentioned it often so you will therefore know that someone in the fire service should/ would have been expected to have inspected the works for a safety cert.
So what went wrong when letters of concern 2013/2014 ( not false news ) addressed to both the management and fire service were ignored.
Surprised that as an investigator one would have expected you to listen and read with care, something you certainly haven't done with what I posted, so shall repeat.
Perhaps a little more explanation will help.
This morning one of the survivors , from 4th floor, when TALKING to sky news was HEARD to say several times that his neighbour, when knocking on his door to warn him about the fire, apologised, taking responsibility, as it had been caused by his fridge.
Whether or not what the man SAID was true ( or he is covering up for a bomb factory) only time will tell but NONE of the media made it up.
So please get off your high horse. It doesn't suit you.
With respect folks given the gravity of loss its probably best to park it for now.
Tets I so agree, scoring points is disrespectful to the people involved directly and Indirectley. What purpose does it serve?
Some people are as sick as the media, jumping to conclusions. Some just love to stir up the ---- when they know nothing. Let the experts do their job and then we will find what or who us to blame.
Mt heart goes out to those involved, it's like your very worst nightmare
The tories call the cuts to the fire services, IMPROVEMENTS. When challenged to explain how cutting fire stations and firefighter positions, and how the reduction of fire safety officers could possibly not put the lives of London residents at risk, Johnson at first tries to defend the indefensible by simply asserting that his recklessness works and improves safety.
Then, when challenged further, he tells a Labour AM,
to get stuffed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN3e-aYUusc
Quote from: Hogs on June 14, 2017, 17:41:17 PM
Flat dweller with a fridge that started this fire ? Where the hell did you get that little gem from JessicaH, with respect to those that lost their lives in this incident please lets not start repeating anything that papers put into press with many several wild and unsubstantiated theories based on hearsay (eg The Telegraph repeating what a resident said he overheard ! I just found on Google)
When the fire is fully extinguished and it is safe to do so Fire Investigators from the Police Forensic Sevice, London Fire Brigade Fire Investigation Section and the HSE will carry out their investigations to present evidence to Her Majesties Coroner, then only he or she will pronounce how the fire started and How the unfotunate victims lost their lives !
In the meantime please every thing you read or hear from the press, tv experts and spin doctors for the Council and management company treat with a huge dollop of scepticism and ignore the desire to repeat it here, there or anywhere else !
Hogsy
It does happen Hogs, look it up, fridges set fire all the time. The huge farmhouse in UK a few years ago was gutted whilst the family were on vacation as a result of an exploding fridge, the problem was the lack of firedoors doing their job, no sprinkler system/alarm and the rapidity in which it spread. The owner of the flat on the 4th floor apparently raised the alarm with a neighbour who was interviewed around 6am this morning. He said the tenant was banging on the doors on his floor telling them my fridge has exploded, there is a fire we need to leave.
Quote from: Three Blind Mice on June 14, 2017, 18:26:35 PM
The tories will find ways of killing you, be it the lack of Police on the streets or the lack or regs so they can make more muney.
List of MPs who opposed tighter housing regs.
Includes a Mr D Cameron
https://twitter.com/socialistvoice/status/874978062219321345
Well well hasnt taken long before the fire to become political very quickly. It will be used like a sledge hammer to start hammering home the rich versus the poor. Labour v Conservative. Brexit v Non Brexit and as Hogs as said the media just want to sell papers on any whisper or hearsay. even before a proper investigation by the fire brigade investigation department.
RIP all the victims in this tragedy.
Polyethylene foam is a durable, lightweight, resilient, closed-cell material. It is often used for packaging fragile goods due to its excellent vibration dampening and insulation properties. It also offers high resistance to chemicals and moisture.
Polyethylene foam is easy to process and fabricate. It has high load bearing characteristics that help manufacturers reduce packaging costs as they can use thinner and smaller amounts of foam yet still protect their products.
UFP Technologies can recommend the proper polyethylene foam material for your unique packaging, component, or product. Our engineering team will work with you to design your solution and manufacture the final parts. Polyethylene Foam Material Characteristics:
• Closed-Cell
• Very lightweight
• Non-abrasive
• Easy to fabricate
• Non-Dusting
• Superb strength and tear resistance
• Excellent shock absorption & vibration dampening properties
• Flexibility
• Impervious to mildew, mold, rot, and bacteria
• Resistant to water, chemicals, solvents & grease
• CFC free
• Odorless
• Excellent buoyancy
• Very cost-effective
• Excellent thermal insulation properties
Thermal properties
Polyethylene foam has a melting point of 80 degrees Celsius. The melting point of high density polyethylene ranges between 120 to 180 degrees Celsius, however thermal properties vary with the type of polyethylene used.
You do not need a degree in physics to see that this was not appropriate material where there could be a fire risk/
The Fire Service reacted quickly and magnificently, as always. Cuts or no cuts.
Cuts or no Cuts. There was 20 tenders present some within 8 minutes, seeing the quickness it took hold I doubt if there had been another 20 the outcome would have been no different. What hasn't been mentioned is that some of those firefighters had been there from 1 o'clock till late afternoon,and it is what they after do when the building is deemed safe to enter,I don't think I could do there job for any amount of money.
No its not taken long for the Forum Know Alls to come up with the reason, problem and solution. Some on here have the answer for everything, every time on every subject. Pathetic
We used to live in a tower block in Barking. One day we had a bad smell of burning coming into the bathroom, this lasted for a couple of days, even after complaining to the caretaker, who could find no cause. Finally I called the caretaker and we decided to bang on a few doors below my flat.
The person in the flat directly under us didn't respond, so after lifting the letter box I saw it was full of smoke. We called the fire brigade and in the meantime broke onto the flat through the meter cupboard.
It was shocking, the flat was gutted, the woman was burnt to death on her bed and of course the place erupted in flames due to a fireman arriving and opening a window.
The fire brigade reckoned it had been on fire for several days, but contained inside the flat due to metal window frames, fire proof front door and only wallpaper and furniture able to burn. It had simmered for days, slowly burning everything inside, even the front door wasn't hot.
I think we were very lucky that there were no fancy materials used to insulate those flats, plus of course the woman had all the windows shut.
I read in the paper that the result of the enquiry was, that the woman had a drink and a cigarette in bed.
Those tower blocks have been demolished now.
Quote from: KJH3 on June 15, 2017, 08:32:05 AM
No its not taken long for the Forum Know Alls to come up with the reason, problem and solution. Some on here have the answer for everything, every time on every subject. Pathetic
[/qsuote]
I agree with you KJH3.
Push your ignore button? No i dont play these silly games, i am not a child. Informed?? who is kidding who!
Well I tend to think you're right Hogs, we should wait for the experts to find out. All the media have been there touting for anyone to say anything dramatic, they have people lining up to tell their stories about what they saw or heard.
The thing that gets me, coz I've never seen a fridge explode, how big and fiery would a fridge explode? or would it depend on what was in it?
I did see the guy on the telly saying his neighbour had warned him of the fridge blowing up, so that information was hearsay anyway.
What can I expect if my fridge blows up? will I have time to switch it off? try to put the fire out? Would it be so catastrophic that it was not possible to get some kind of control over it, assuming someone is there at the time?
This post is not meant to argue a point, but merely to find out how a fridge can blow up as described. I have seen electrical things catch fire, or go bang before, but not a fridge.
http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/news/LatestNewsReleases_Fridgefreezerdelayputtinglivesatrisk.asp#.WUKYp1DTWSM
I worked in the UK as a manager of a block for the over 60s it had the stay in your flat policy in the event of a fire. There were several fires in the time I worked there and they never obeyed that rule! They would all be out in the corridors looking to see where the fire was and the fire brigade would tell me that they should go in and shut the door. Thank god there was never a really bad one because most of them couldn't have got down the stairs unaided and all the front so called fire doors had a big gap under them which would have let smoke in easily. I had many false alarms, burnt toast fried sausages even talc setting of the smoke alarms in flats but the brigade were always there in minutes and ready for anything. Two of them died in the bad fire in Southampton which was also a tower block. I would never live in one.
WOW lmj52, thanks for that link from LFB. Very informative.
Have seen several houses decimated by dishwasher fires consequently never recommend anyone to use one at night but the speed with which a plastic coated fridge/freezer is destroyed is just amazing.
But whatever caused this horrendous catastrophe perhaps forum folk will now start acting with empathy towards the victims and their families without having to make pathetic facetious remarks towards others regardless of the different opinions or political persuasions.
So fail to understand hogs why you were so derogatory to me when I mentioned the fire caused by a fridge !!
Quote from: Hogs on June 15, 2017, 14:34:37 PM
Quote from: KJH3 on June 15, 2017, 13:14:00 PM
Push your ignore button? No i dont play these silly games, i am not a child. Informed?? who is kidding who!
KJH3
I would never 'kid' about some poor soul/s losing their life/s in a fire! If you are saying that my post re the process after a fatality in a fire is wrong please explain to the wider forum members where I am incorrect.
Hogs
Hogs,
I said I was never going to comment on this forum again, but this something very close to my heart.
I saw the same Sky news interview that Jessica H saw, it was a Somalian Guy, who was taking directly to the Sky news reporter outside the building, he stated that his neighbour who lived on the 4th floor, banged on his door to alert him of the fire and said his fridge had ''exploded'', so it's witness evidence, and I don't know any Fire Investigation Officer, who would not at least listen to witness evidence.
Both you and I know that in any high stress situation people can get confused about specific details, but the guy clearly said it was his neighbours fridge, So Jessica H's comments were not newspaper rhetoric, but from an interview with a resident.
Whether it was the fridge that caught fire, (I have attended at least one, fridges use electricity or sometimes gas, so the possibility that they can catch fire, can never be totally dismissed) or flames and smoke had percolated into the kitchen and the owner assumed it was his fridge, we might never know.
I know that now in Manchester and I assume London too, a fire appliance only has a crew of 4, it used to be 6, and that stations that used to have two appliances, now only have one, the cuts have taken away those spare men and those vital appliances.
We both have the experience to appreciate that the initial crew who attended, would have faced an exceedingly challenging situation, Just 4, (possibly) 5 men, A driver/pump operator, an Officer in charge, and two breathing apparatus wearers, and a appliance that only carries 1800 litres of water, and they are faced with a rapidly deteriorating fire scene, multiple casualties, screaming people in windows, and many people demanding their attention.
I have been in the situation where I have turned up at an incident with just one appliance and had to commit BA men to effect immediate rescues, with no back up, and as an OIC, you trust the professionalism of your firefighters, but know in the back of your mind, that if it goes wrong, it's your decision and your head on the block.
No doubt the full investigation will take many months to explain why the Building regulations and fire compartmentation failed, but fail they obviously did.
I makes me immensely proud to see the Emergency services do what they train to do, to go above and beyond the call of duty, It makes me miss the job and my colleagues even more, My deepest sympathies to all those who have had to experiences this disaster, to their friends and loved ones, and sadly to those who have lost their lives.
The UK has had it's fair share of trauma in recent months, but the people of the UK always rally together and show true spirit in difficult times, regardless of their colour or creed. And for all it's faults, the UK really is the greatest nation on Earth.
Quote from: Jo-JoB on June 15, 2017, 18:01:33 PM
Quote from: Hogs on June 15, 2017, 14:34:37 PM
Quote from: KJH3 on June 15, 2017, 13:14:00 PM
Push your ignore button? No i dont play these silly games, i am not a child. Informed?? who is kidding who!
KJH3
I would never 'kid' about some poor soul/s losing their life/s in a fire! If you are saying that my post re the process after a fatality in a fire is wrong please explain to the wider forum members where I am incorrect.
Hogs
Hogs,
I said I was never going to comment on this forum again, but this something very close to my heart.
I saw the same Sky news interview that Jessica H saw, it was a Somalian Guy, who was taking directly to the Sky news reporter outside the building, he stated that his neighbour who lived on the 4th floor, banged on his door to alert him of the fire and said his fridge had ''exploded'', so it's witness evidence, and I don't know any Fire Investigation Officer, who would not at least listen to witness evidence.
Both you and I know that in any high stress situation people can get confused about specific details, but the guy clearly said it was his neighbours fridge, So Jessica H's comments were not newspaper rhetoric, but from an interview with a resident.
Whether it was the fridge that caught fire, (I have attended at least one, fridges use electricity or sometimes gas, so the possibility that they can catch fire, can never be totally dismissed) or flames and smoke had percolated into the kitchen and the owner assumed it was his fridge, we might never know.
I know that now in Manchester and I assume London too, a fire appliance only has a crew of 4, it used to be 6, and that stations that used to have two appliances, now only have one, the cuts have taken away those spare men and those vital appliances.
We both have the experience to appreciate that the initial crew who attended, would have faced an exceedingly challenging situation, Just 4, (possibly) 5 men, A driver/pump operator, an Officer in charge, and two breathing apparatus wearers, and a appliance that only carries 1800 litres of water, and they are faced with a rapidly deteriorating fire scene, multiple casualties, screaming people in windows, and many people demanding their attention.
I have been in the situation where I have turned up at an incident with just one appliance and had to commit BA men to effect immediate rescues, with no back up, and as an OIC, you trust the professionalism of your firefighters, but know in the back of your mind, that if it goes wrong, it's your decision and your head on the block.
No doubt the full investigation will take many months to explain why the Building regulations and fire compartmentation failed, but fail they obviously did.
I makes me immensely proud to see the Emergency services do what they train to do, to go above and beyond the call of duty, It makes me miss the job and my colleagues even more, My deepest sympathies to all those who have had to experiences this disaster, to their friends and loved ones, and sadly to those who have lost their lives.
The UK has had it's fair share of trauma in recent months, but the people of the UK always rally together and show true spirit in difficult times, regardless of their colour or creed. And for all it's faults, the UK really is the greatest nation on Earth.
Off Topic ish But the way folks have come together after London x2 ,Manchester and now these poor folks in the fire, folks do help each other out day to day wich is probaly what keeps the world spinning aside from the handfull of barmy bxggers trying to control it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf_mYsgz07s
Back peddling???
I haven't always agreed with Hogs, but surely what he is saying makes sense.
We should wait for the final word from the experts before apportioning blame.
Problem is we live in a world where news is 24/7 , where we don't have the patience to
Wait, and we also have a desire to lay the blame somewhere,without knowing the full truth.
Quote from: Altair on June 15, 2017, 22:51:59 PM
I haven't always agreed with Hogs, but surely what he is saying makes sense.
We should wait for the final word from the experts before apportioning blame.
Problem is we live in a world where news is 24/7 , where we don't have the patience to
Wait, and we also have a desire to lay the blame somewhere,without knowing the full truth.
Quite right too, just because some person says something on the telly, it doesn't mean much until the inquiry is done. We can be sure that before that happens, there will be plenty of lies, wriggling and squirming by some involved in this scandalous event.
The London Emergency services are probably the best in the world. The way they have responded to a catastrophe of unimaginable horror, devastating loss of life, traumatic scenes of people searching for their loved ones, and still manage to carry on, is nothing short of amazing.
A huge round of applause for our emergency services. :bravo_2: :bravo_2: :bravo_2:
Not only do some of you forum folk NOT read, and digest, posts before responding but worse it appears some don't even bother to read them at all before continuing to stir.....
This is part of my original post the point of which was about WHO was most likely to be BLAMED for this disaster ..
In this instance WHATEVER started the fire, unless intentional, is actually immaterial.
Surely even an idiot can understand that.
Re: Tower Block Fir
June 14, 2017, 16:20:29 PM »
.
A disgraceful situation which I hope leads to manslaughter convictions plus the removal of all their work related pensions .
However what is the betting not only will this get swept under the carpet but all involved will end up being relocated to other positions because the flat dweller with the fridge, that started this catastrophe, will be blamed.
The facetious remarks I was referring to was towards those who are quick to blame others of different persuasions, ie politics, religion or nationality at every given opportunity. That, IMO, is just sick.
So for goodness sake Hogs lighten up. Stop this nit picking just because you believe yourself to be superior and save
your angst for those caught up in this tragedy.
Let up hope and pray the inquiry doesn't take as long as it did with Hillborough and the man in the street gets justice for once and all services involved in the rescue are treated with the respect they surely deserve.
Quote from: JessicaH on June 16, 2017, 07:44:57 AM
.
Let up hope and pray the inquiry doesn't take as long as it did with Hillborough and the man in the street gets justice for once and all services involved in the rescue are treated with the respect they surely deserve.
Not sure what justice the man in the street is going to get , or what good it will do them.
There will soon be another new tragedy to feel false empathy for, in the main we do it to make ourselves feel better about the **** world we live in.
Who cares about the " little gem" you friend sent you hogsy....you are still waffling. :NIGHT_1:
Quote from: Altair on June 16, 2017, 07:56:16 AM
Quote from: JessicaH on June 16, 2017, 07:44:57 AM
.
Let up hope and pray the inquiry doesn't take as long as it did with Hillborough and the man in the street gets justice for once and all services involved in the rescue are treated with the respect they surely deserve.
Not sure what justice the man in the street is going to get , or what good it will do them.
There will soon be another new tragedy to feel false empathy for, in the main we do it to make ourselves feel better about the **** world we live in.
Sorry but that's bang out of order i'm sure like me people all feel terribly sad for the victims of this tragedy and it is most certainly NOT false.
The cladding was tested on a news programme using specialised equipment and fire experts. It was found that the cladding caught fire very easily and that there was a hollow piece at the front which acted like a funnel. A window above would suck up the fire and this is why the programme thought it spread so quickly.
Quote from: verwood on June 16, 2017, 09:50:14 AM
Quote from: Altair on June 16, 2017, 07:56:16 AM
Quote from: JessicaH on June 16, 2017, 07:44:57 AM
.
Let up hope and pray the inquiry doesn't take as long as it did with Hillborough and the man in the street gets justice for once and all services involved in the rescue are treated with the respect they surely deserve.
Not sure what justice the man in the street is going to get , or what good it will do them.
There will soon be another new tragedy to feel false empathy for, in the main we do it to make ourselves feel better about the **** world we live in.
Sorry but that's bang out of order i'm sure like me people all feel terribly sad for the victims of this tragedy and it is most certainly NOT false.
It is not out of order at all, simply a fact.
Feeling sad is fine , but often it is for ourselves and not specifically for those involved, we all have a need to identify and share in their suffering it is an
intrinsic part of our social makeup.
We feel sad for the loss of life and for those left behind, but have no real connection with them and so much of what we feel is false.
You can take this as harsh or out of order, but it doesn't make it less true.
True, Altair....... BUT only for those sad indivuals who lack empathy for any form of human life.
Although life has to go on, even for those involved, it doesn't mean that we don't care, try to help or remember them in our thoughts...infinitum.
Quote from: JessicaH on June 16, 2017, 12:03:41 PM
True, Altair....... BUT only for those sad indivuals who lack empathy for any form of human life.
Although life has to go on, even for those involved, it doesn't mean that we don't care, try to help or remember them in our thoughts...infinitum.
absolutely nothing to do with people lacking care, it is is all about realising that much of what we feel is instinctive and not for the individuals themselves.
not sure why you seem to be taking offence at this?
Many of our emotional responses are instinctive triggers which serve to unify us as a group, these are deep rooted survival tools.
Realising this doesn't make one a 'sad individual', just informed and educated.
Those who are accountable should be locked up for life for murder :91:
Not taking offence ,Altair, simply explaining you cannot assume everyone has the same narcistic view of life as you have.
Even if your anonymous ego desires you to be more educated and intelligent than I.
Quote from: JessicaH on June 16, 2017, 13:23:45 PM
Not taking offence ,Altair, simply explaining you cannot assume everyone has the same narcistic view of life as you have.
Even if your anonymous ego desires you to be more educated and intelligent than I.
That's fair enough ,
some people here are ex fire service / police service etc, and I respect their views that are pertinent and relative to their working experience.
i have been involved for many years in social psychology, and i believe this allows me to impart a balanced and informed view on these matters.
you do not have to accept my opinions, but unsure why you would feel the need to insult me?
Me insult you !!!
How?
Methinks the reverse is more the truth.
Just because I don't agree with your opinion I am regarded as a female numpty....with a brain the size of a gnat.
...something I actually find that very amusing.......
Must admit it does make me smile that you guys constantly feel the need to impart your area of expertise and intelligencia quotient on the expectation all will believe it.
When in fact 50 years of experience, in my chosen field, has proved to me that only the insecure have the need to do so.
Have a great day folks
Is it just me or does anyone else reading some of these threads feel like calling out the score?? 30-15. 30 all. 40-30. DEUCE! Advantage....etc etc etc ad nauseum.
FFS - can you all please stop worrying at the arguments like a tongue probing an aching tooth? I would have thought that something as godawful as this disaster should merit sensible, even-handed and empathic thoughts and comments, not a version of mine is bigger than yours....
Rant over.
On another note, the LFB video made me run to check my fridge which is, thank goodness, metal backed. Still glad to have extinguishers and other equipment in house, though.
J
Altaire how unfortunate that as a newbie you show such a cynical side to your nature.
i am not a newbie, but twojays is right.
Nuff said
Quote from: verwood on June 16, 2017, 16:11:57 PM
Altaire how unfortunate that as a newbie you show such a cynical side to your nature.
Verwood
That comment says more about you than it does about Altaire, How unfortunate, an experienced poster, doesn't have the common sense or the good manners to realise, it doesn't matter how many little stars are under your name, We all have the right to hold and express an opinion.
We have just seen on the news people storming the local council offices demanding answers. People standing in the street screaming that the powers are holding back the truth of how many died. Relatives and friends demanding to know if their loved ones have died.
Stand back a bit. We live in a world where we want it and we want it now.
Do they really think the council/government/H & S exc have the answers why yet?
Do they really think that anyone knows the figures yet as the brave services are working in perilous conditions and not been on all floors yet.
Do they really think anyone is yet able to state the full list of who has died.
We cannot imagine what they are going through but being led by some to act like a lynch mob will not help or speed the process, neither will screaming abuse at those trying to assess the situation.
I remember a certain politician, one who seems to have a new found love of being on tv in recent days, yesterday spouting that "We/They need answers"
That has not helped matters. It is beholden on leaders to lead and that means calming the situation while the job in hand in completed.
All the screaming, shouting, abuse and falling out on here, won't change what has happened, won't speed up the process and won't help those involved.
Until they/we have the FACTS everyone would be better to let the services and authorities do their job.
Yes, twojays is right.
Off Topic:-
Just to add, I am sure most of us have had successful careers from which we became relative experts in various fields. In most cases these careers ended quite a long time ago and we should be aware that lots of things change over time, including our perception of how it was? I have a sign on my wall in a very prominent position which reads, "The older I get the better I was", it tends to keep my ego in check a bit. :67:
Off topic, but Altair reckons that s/he is not a "newbie", yet the number of posts currently equates to 9. Sounds pretty new to me, but with such strong views suspect the s/he has morphed from a former avatar.
Anyway, welcome Altair, whoever you are. :08:
Thank you :bravo_2:
KJH3
Excellent post. :clap: :clap:
Problem is that the media absolutely love this sort of public reaction and will continue to stir it up as much as possible.
It helps nobody, least of all those who have lost loved ones in the most horrific way. We all have great sympathy for these unfortunate people and we can empathise with them.
Altair ,
" Feeling sad is fine but often it is for ourselves and not for those specifically involved" .
Don't agree.
I am not sad for myself, but I am very sad for all those affected by this horrific and tragic event.
I don't know what they are feeling because thank goodness, I have never had to deal with anything so traumatic . But I can empathise with them, as we all do.
Quote from: KJH3 on June 16, 2017, 19:00:14 PM
We have just seen on the news people storming the local council offices demanding answers. People standing in the street screaming that the powers are holding back the truth of how many died. Relatives and friends demanding to know if their loved ones have died.
Stand back a bit. We live in a world where we want it and we want it now.
Do they really think the council/government/H & S exc have the answers why yet?
Do they really think that anyone knows the figures yet as the brave services are working in perilous conditions and not been on all floors yet.
Do they really think anyone is yet able to state the full list of who has died.
We cannot imagine what they are going through but being led by some to act like a lynch mob will not help or speed the process, neither will screaming abuse at those trying to assess the situation.
I remember a certain politician, one who seems to have a new found love of being on tv in recent days, yesterday spouting that "We/They need answers"
That has not helped matters. It is beholden on leaders to lead and that means calming the situation while the job in hand in completed.
All the screaming, shouting, abuse and falling out on here, won't change what has happened, won't speed up the process and won't help those involved.
Until they/we have the FACTS everyone would be better to let the services and authorities do their job.
I¡d assume that a fair few flats would have been sub -let .Quite likely they'll never have a 100% answer to how many & who have died ?
Well it didnt take long for the rent a mob to arrive demanding the removal of everyone from the PM to the local policeman,welcome to London 2017. :c023:
Well, can you blame em? Loadsa people dead, loadsa people homeless, and all they see is useless celebrities, politicians and royalty being treated to a front seat. Rent-a-mob are bound to get in there, it's what they do. Most people I know turn the telly off when the news comes on now, coz none of it is news anymore, the media are milking it and inviting trouble. Even the politicians are milking it.
gus-lopez is right, they'll never know how many were in the block, most of London is over populated, but that's old hat and doesn't count.
There must be plenty of empty apartments around West London to house the homeless, surely they could ring up the owners in China and Russia to see if they could be used for people to actually live in? Or is that going to far?
With all this mud slinging on who or what was responsible are we not forgetting the residents who survived, who have lost everything and some who have lost members of their family, should we now concentrate on these people and make sure they are housed safely, counselled adequately and helped to replace the items they have lost as I'm sure many of them will not have been insured
also what about other high rise flats, although the authorities have said they will be inspected, what about the residents living there, would you live in one
Mike
Quote from: jabba the cat on June 17, 2017, 07:05:36 AM
Well it didnt take long for the rent a mob to arrive demanding the removal of everyone from the PM to the local policeman,welcome to London 2017. :c023:
[Aa/quote] what a despicable comment to make ....possibly in excess of 100 people lost there lives .....TM hadn't the balls to face the survivors she just ran away like the coward she is .....they have every right to protest and you come out with comments like that ....shame on you and I think you should be banned from this forum
Off Topic
in the uk i did the Landlord property rental bit,every Flat had to be double floored,mesh & plaster poured between roof beams,double fire lined ceeling plaster boards,fire doors,mains smoke alarms,stairs had to be under boarded with fire line board,steel fire escapes,fire blankets & extinguishers. and thiswas in the 1990,s
ive been amazed to read that this council type accomadation didnt have/doesent have really high speq fire safty stuff enforced by the councils,ie full fire alarm,alarm drill,s Sprinkler systems.
how about this then fact or fiction or fake news
Not my research - just a copy and paste from a Spectator poster:
1 - the block of flats was run not by any council but by KCTMO. This body
is made up of 8 TENANTS, 4 councilors and 3 independent members.
2 - Labour hold the seat that the block is situated in.
3 - Labour run the London Council who manage the under funded London Fire Service
4 - incidentally Emma Coad the sitting Labour MP for that ward also sat on the KCTMO.
5 - the advise to stay put which Sadiq Khan has been so vocal about was given by the London Fire Service.
6 - the decision to change contractors during the refurb was made by KCTMO.
7 - the decision not to spend a paltry £138k on fitting sprinklers again KCTMO.
8 - the decision to create ALMO organisation such as the KCTMO was made under the Right To Manage legislation passed in 2002
as part of the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act.
9 - this was put in place to give leasehold tenants a greater say and the ability to self manage, which has clearly proven to be a disaster.
10 - and which Govt was in a charge when this law was passed? Yup you guessed it Labour.
11 - Sadiq Khan as mayor of London Produced a report to say that the fire service did not need further funding.
12 -Emma Coad elected Labour MP was on the board of the Tenant Management group who are being accused of not listening to tenants.
Banned from the forum if thats a protest on behalf of the people who tragically lost lives in the fire you could have fooled me it was the left using the tragic episode to vent their anger at the government of the day.
Hence the article above.
Very interesting Jabba.
But T. May will still be blamed for everything.
In 2005 I bought a new build flat as an investment. I can confirm Tetley's last post . Also, if there are any gas appliances they have to have an annual safety check, which we have to show to our insurance company to get full cover.
Of course there are no doubt plenty of unscrupulous landlords who don't do what they should to protect their tenants.
As tintin has said, the emphasis is now on helping all those traumatised people to get back to a semblance of normality, if they ever can. And as quickly as possible.
In all towns and cities, there are unoccupied buildings. The local councils should take them over as temporary re-housing .
off topic
if memory serves me right,going back 25 years,the Fire Brigade used to inspect my flats as well because 4 storey multi occupency.
That is a very interesting article Jabba but there are those that wont allow fact to get in the way of fiction and enjoy the chance to have a go at those opposed to their views.
Politicians inviting people on to the streets to demonstrate is a very slippery slope leading to possible rioting next. Frankly i would have thought a politician inciting people to do this an offence. I sincerely believe there is a move afoot to overthrown the democratically elected party with more votes and more seats and replace it by one with less votes and less seats, where does this stop, where is the line that says enough is enough you have gone too far. Watching Newsnight last night i thought the interviewer was rude arrogant and only interested in getting her views across. Frankly the BBC is in the gutter these days, its time to cease the licence fee and let them free to face the market place. That would soon sort out some of these inflated egos.
If what you say above is fact, are the Labour party and unions trying to steer criticism away from them
Absolutely disgraceful that this tragedy has turned into a political point scoring thread ....have you no empathy at all .... disgusting and disgraceful
After the horrors of the Manchester, Westminster and Borough Market terror attacks , there was no rioting or calls from left wingers to make protest marches. Why now ? Oh yes, we had a general election and JC's party gained quite a lot of seats. A rush of power to their heads !
The Labour MP who won Kensington and Chelsea with just 20 votes, may have some explaining to do concerning Grenfell Tower. She was involved with local housing long before May became PM.
mel, every poster has expressed sympathy for those affected by this horrific fire.
My practical suggestion to helping them is for local councils to requisition all empty buildings which are habitable, for use as temporary housing. There are plenty in my town and the population is around 80,000 so there must be thousands more in the area and other parts of greater London.
Proud of my stepdaughter, she is putting in some voluntary work today for the Grenfell tower survivors.
Rod, well done to your step-daughter :clap: Practical help is as important as donations of money.
Mel 20,
Your comment about this thread turning into a 'political point scoring thread' Have you not seen and heard all the disgusting comments from the likes of Corbyn, his bully boys, and his followers making this a Political point, slagging off the Tories and Theresa May. Also including the Police and Fire brigade and anyone else they can blame for this tragedy. There is no way that the numbers of Dead can be reported, when the Firemen cannot even reach most floors. The Press and the BBC are disgusting. What can ANYONE realistically do, until the investigations are concluded. The people who lived in this block, should be rehoused WHERE there are places to rehome them. Irrespective of where in the country. They should just be grateful for a roof over their heads. THIS TRAGEDY IS NOT THE FAULT OF THERESA MAY or anyone else. .It was a disaster, we have to manage it.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4657984/Grenfell-safety-consultant-urged-council-hide-failings.html
Of course this could be "false news" because never actually heard anyone say anything about this little gem, just read it in DM, but in my first post I said it sounded like back handlers to me.
But whatever we think of the press per se sometimes investigative journalism actually better than the police.
Ex fireman on fee of £ 244 k after finding loads of faults told council how to hide them from Fire Service et al.
Well, I hope they thrown the book at him and his councillor buddies.
Quote from: JessicaH on July 02, 2017, 21:01:02 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4657984/Grenfell-safety-consultant-urged-council-hide-failings.html
Of course this could be "false news" because never actually heard anyone say anything about this little gem, just read it in DM, but in my first post I said it sounded like back handlers to me.
But whatever we think of the press per se sometimes investigative journalism actually better than the police.
Ex fireman on fee of £ 244 k after finding loads of faults told council how to hide them from Fire Service et al.
Well, I hope they thrown the book at him and his councillor buddies.
Why am I not shocked and surprised by this kind of news anymore (which I would suggest is not fake) . Terrible, terrible, terrible.
Excellent post Hogs,
To Edric and all your colleagues who serve our communities so well:
Thank you so much for all you do for us, whoever we are and wherever we are. Your story is incredibly moving and I hope brings home to all of us how much we all need each other in this big wide world.
With regard to taking Aerial Appliances off pre-determined attendances, they did exactly the same thing to us at our station in Manchester, We had two pumps (fire engines) and a HPV (Hydraulic Platform Vehicle) what kids used to call a Simon Snorkel.
Massive bit of kit, but fast and maneuverable. I operated one for years, my colleague and I, could site it, get the jacks down, and be at full working height (90 foot) in 90 seconds.
But the powers that be decided to take it off pre determined attendancies, so it's turn outs dropped, and then they could ''justifiably'' turn round and say it wasn't needed.
What people never seem to understand, is that your emergency services are like an Insurance policy, you never want to use it, but it's vitally important that you have it, when you need it.
As I said, In 2002 we used to have two fire engines, and one HPV, there were 4 watches, that had 14 men each, 12 were on duty at any one time. you had 2 extra men to allow for holidays, specialist training and time off.
On station, there was a Station Commander, a Clerk, a Cleaner, 2 Specialist Fire Safety Officers and 4 operational watch's, of 14 men each, a total of 61 people.
Now in 2017, at one of the busiest stations in the UK, there is just 1 fire engine, 4 watches with 4 men per watch, they might get an extra man, if there is any extra staff available from other stations.
From 61 staff to 16, and still they want more cuts.
A mother and three children died in a house fire in Bolton today, my sympathies go to their family.
It cannot carry on, this has gone from a cost cutting exercise, to being a substantial risk to public safety. It's not just the Fire Service, it's all the emergency and medical services.
We must invest in our emergency services, they are our's and our loved ones only insurance policy.
Off topic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwMI3V0DDNk
people want fire doors,Alarms, SAFE affordable Housing,and well payed & staffed blue light services and our ex armed forces kids lookin after,not cast onto some park bench.
if it aint Carbine its gonna be another socalist leader ,coz theres more hard ups than there are wealthy now in the UK and fings is gonna have ti change for the masses.
Quote from: Tetley on July 09, 2017, 00:40:40 AM
Off topic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwMI3V0DDNk
people want fire doors,Alarms, SAFE affordable Housing,and well payed & staffed blue light services and our ex armed forces kids lookin after,not cast onto some park bench.
if it aint Carbine its gonna be another socalist leader ,coz theres more hard ups than there are wealthy now in the UK and fings is gonna have ti change for the masses.
You are certainly right about the gulf between the have's and have not's Tets. The problem is that the rich can't seem to understand that they have far more than they need and squeal if the are asked to give some back.
The other problem is that despite being poor and ill educated they keep knocking out more kids who just add to the poor pile (mainly).
Again off topic
Thatcher turned working people into home owning share owning low payed Tory voters,Blair was Thatcher,s best achivment,ie a sort of
mid wing labour party,now we have folks working on min wage contracts paying for over priced housing on low wages and the lowest money rates for 100,s of years that carnt manage been turned into a socalist, buy a CRAP Tory party that telling public sector wage caped workers that there is no majic money tree....after they have just bought 10 mp,s votes for 1 billion quid to stay in power to try and handle the biggest self inflicted european X up,since Hitler invaded Russia....and people are still paying for our Bank & Finance X up from 2008.
stand by for Socalizme in Number 10
still its not all bad......we might have some money in the pot for building control officers...with a fire door correct gap gauge and a local fire officer going round checking to make sure mains fire alarm systems were fitted in rented 2 storey and over buildings.