ARBOLEAS URBAN UPDATE

[Edni]

I leave the planning labyrinth to others, and without wishing to enter into polemics all I know is that many that have obtained an AFO have sold their property and are out of the maze. I am sure that all parties in the town hall will agree that those that wish to get an AFO should be able to get one. Just my half a penny´s worth.

[Roger]

The former administration (this time the former Mayor's son) continues to fight the last election, which they lost, rather than concentrate on commenting on what the new administration is doing.

_____________________________________

I will not accuse them of lying, even though much of what they publish is either not true or misleading.
Perhaps they believe what they publish!!
______________________________________

REGARDING MY INVOLVEMENT WITH THE TOWN HALL IN 2007 UNTIL 2011.

I was not a Councillor.
I was not involved with any decisions by the Town Hall.
I met with the two Mayors during that time in order to help the British Community.
In 2009 I realized that the Town needed a change so I started to organise against the then Mayor.
All this everyone knows.
__________________________________________________________________

REGARDING ILLEGAL BUILDING LICENCES

As far as I am aware no building licences were ever issued for illegal houses, with one exception.
When I became Deputy Mayor in 2011 my main responsibility was to sort out the problems with illegal houses. I never discovered that the builders had obtained licences.
What was obvious is that the builders sold houses when they did not have licences.
That was the fault of lawyers who did not check, and the Town Hall for not acting on what they should have seen.

The exception was 7 houses in Los Carrascos built by Lakes Vega on rustic land.
Because the clients threatened legal action against the builder if they did not receive their escrituras the company was issued back dated licences by the Town Hall in around 2004.
There was a subsequent raid on the Town Hall by the National Police in 2009, a Court case and the officials were found guilty.
________________________________________________________

THE MISINFORMATION REGARDING ARIs AND AFOs

It is true that in June 2017 and subsequently Innovation 14 was approved.
This made all the land URBAN and created the ARI areas.
So in one sense the ARIs were then complete.


But this did not complete the process.
It did not enable the residents to obtain the escrituras for their land because the land still had to be segregated with a Parcelisation Project for each of the ARIs.

This is the problem.
The Town Hall was charged with the responsibility of organizing these Projects.
Not the residents or the builders.
They only had to be consulted.
As proof of what I am saying it was the Town Hall which appointed an independent planning consultant to carry out this work, and asked the residents to pay for his work (even though it should have been the builders who were asked to pay).

The problem is after 6 years only one Parcelisation Project has been completed, and so far as we have been told the Property Registrar will not register it because there is a mortgage on part of the land.
We wait to see how this is resolved.


So in the absence of any progress in 6 years, and without any time scale of when or if the projects will be completed the residents have, understandably, chosen to obtain AFOs which allows the land to be segregated, and is also an Occupation Licence which they should require to get water and electric contracts (although most have these by a back door process), and to obtain their escrituras.

They have only chosen this route because of the abject failure of the previous administration.
___________________________________________

LEGAL OR NOT

This is something which the previous administration continually repeats.
I consider it is to frighten people.

The AFO does not make a house legal.
Correct.

Because they are already legal under Spanish Law (the Town Hall does not make the law)
Ask any lawyer.

______________________________________________

Will it be possible for the Town Hall to continue with Parcelsiation Projects?
I do not know.
We wait to see how discussions with the Property Registar are resolved because many ARIs have embargos.

Doe it matter to the residents if they are not completed?
No.
It will not affect the status of your property or the legality and ownership of it.

It may cause an issue for the Town Hall in registering some roads and green areas.
But this is a technicality because using the justification of public interest (according to the Junta) they can still maintain them.

Of course there could be an issue if the Town Hall does complete and register a Parcelisation project.
Who will pay the Segregation, Urbanisation and Legalisation taxes which will be required?

[JuanC]

Hello and apologies for not intervening these days. In these 12 years, the innovation 14 that legalizes all the land in Arboleas has been approved and, during this legislature, the following ARIS have been approved by the administration managed by Cristóbal (PSOE):

- ARI 15 of Los Llanos.
- ARI A-01 Los Higuerales.
- ARI A-03 Los Menchones.
- ARI A-05 La Perla.
- ARI A-06 El Rincón.
- ARI A-08 Los Carrascos.
- ARI A-09 Los Garcias.
- ARI A-10 Los Torres.
- ARI A-14 Los Requenas.
- ARI A-17 El Campillo.
- PERI A-14 Los Requenas.
- Partial Plan Sector A-06 El Germán.

With this, the urban planning in Arboleas is finished in the absence of their respective reparcelling projects that depend on the contribution of documents by the companies or owners.

We believe that in this way the residents have been helped more than giving opinions only with the intention of confusing because there is no other urbanistically different solution to this one for the total legality of the houses. Everyone knows that the AFOS are not an urban solution, it is a document that recognizes the ownership of an illegal home that would also continue to be linked to its corresponding ARI to order it in the territory.

On the other hand, Roger, Cristóbal does not write under false profiles, moreover, he is willing to debate with you publicly and in front of all the interested parties, technicians and lawyers, the issue of urban planning in Arboleas, whenever and wherever you want, no problem. .

To Mr. Johnny 73, we know that illegal licenses were given and that buyers in good faith were allegedly defrauded in the period from 2003 to 2011, in fact, Roger has acknowledged that he supported the government team in the period of greatest alleged fraud, 2007 , we were against. In addition, 19 years ago, in reference to Monkee's comment, a PP candidate for the 2023 municipal elections was part of the government team during the construction of the illegal house that he mentions in his comment. That is why we are not on the same side as them, we prefer to solve problems.

All the best

[Rod]

Yes, exactly my point rt21, San Juan was saying you could not get a mortgage on an AFO so that was what I was querying. According to the article you quoted it is not necessary to have one but it goes on to say.....
"Most banks in Spain will require the AFO certificate in order to grant you a mortgage against a country property,  however there is a very small selection that don't, as long as the property complies for an AFO. therefore, you can get a mortgage. You just need to know which banks to go to".
So it looks to me that having an AFO makes it easier to get a mortgage.

[rt21]

"One cannot obtain a mortgage for a property with an AFO, that is a negative for me so I am one of the sceptics"

Where did this come from? Who said that you cannot get a mortgage with an AFO? I was told by one leading estate agent in Albox that it was actually easier to get a mortgage with an AFO, they should know as they deal with hundreds of sales of properties, with and without AFO's.

According to an article that I read the other day on the web site of Mediterranean Homes, most banks in Spain require an AFO certificate in order to grant a mortgage against a country property.

A link to the article is provided below

https://www.mediterraneanhomes.eu/en/blog/can-i-get-a-mortgage-on-a-country-property-and-what-if-it-doesnt-have-an-afo


Richard
 

[Rod]

"One cannot obtain a mortgage for a property with an AFO, that is a negative for me so I am one of the sceptics"

Where did this come from? Who said that you cannot get a mortgage with an AFO? I was told by one leading estate agent in Albox that it was actually easier to get a mortgage with an AFO, they should know as they deal with hundreds of sales of properties, with and without AFO's.

[Johnny73]

Monkee , So so sorry to hear of your sad loss and then the awful mess you have been left with.
Perhaps Cansado, JuanC and Figure Skating read this and realise that when they or their predecessors issued building licences like confetti to the chosen ones that your story is the result of their actions. No building license/permission  no building, no problem.
Then they have the cheek to try to justify their actions by more accusations and falsehoods.
Monkee , can only hope you can get it sorted.

[Monkee]

JOHNNY 73.  YOU ARE SO RIGHT IN YOUR LATEST COMMENT. 
HAVING LIVED IN ARBOLEAS FOR 19 + YEARS IN A  MOUNTAIN OAKS PROPERTY , WITHOUT THE PROMISED PAPERWORK, AND THE PROMISES THAT EVERYTHING WAS INCLUDED,  TAXES VAT, ETC,  ETC.,   AND PAYING THE FULL PURCHASE PRICE TO THE BUILDER.    IT ALL WENT PEAR SHAPED.   MY HUSBAND RECENTLY DIED WITHOUT EVER ACTUALLY OWNING THE PROPERTY WE BOUGHT. 
 OVER THE YEARS, PROMISES FROM THE TOWN HALL THAT THEY WOULD MAKE SURE THAT THE BUILDERS PAID, WAS ALL LIES.  THEN WE HAD A COST OF 500 EUROS FOR THE PERI,  STILL WAITING,  NOW WE HAVE THE AFO.    MOST OF US WHO HAVE LIVED HERE YEARS,  DO NOT HAVE THE THOUSANDS TO SPEND ON PERIS OR AFOS.   SO WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE US. 
IN ALL THIS TIME ROGER HAS BEEN THE ONLY PERSON TO DISCUSS THIS MESS. WITHOUT SPOUTING LIES, WE ALL KNOW WHERE THE LIES HAVE  COME FROM.
PLEASE EXCUSE THE CAPITALS, EYESIGHT NOT GOOD.

[Tetley]

Tetley asked why didn't the PP win overall when everyone he spoke to were planning to vote PP.

Simple.
British support for the PP was overwhelming.
They wanted a change.
But then a lot realized that they couldn't vote because they didn't know they had to re register.

At the public meeting for the British we had huge support and then at the end of the meeting I worked out only 25% could vote.

Interesting Roger,because if the PSOE had not split,they would have won 7 seats minimum with the British  registered  vote.

[Roger]

Tetley asked why didn't the PP win overall when everyone he spoke to were planning to vote PP.

Simple.
British support for the PP was overwhelming.
They wanted a change.
But then a lot realized that they couldn't vote because they didn't know they had to re register.

At the public meeting for the British we had huge support and then at the end of the meeting I worked out only 25% could vote.

[Tetley]

Getting back to the real issues.
Tetley asked what has changed.

Well there is a new administration but the problems remain.

The 30 houses in Los Requenas are in limbo.

I estimate that there are still over 100 houses without AFOs.
The Condrey houses in El Prado and Menchones are now being sorted by the builder.
There are people who want to sell but can't afford an AFO.
Their agent is sorting this.

There is still the issue which the new administration has to come to terms with.
Can some of the ARI projects be registered given embargos.
And where will the money for the taxes come from if the ARI projects continue.
This will cause big arguments.

So people still need to be kept up to date.

So as pointed out pre election.....Spanish administration compliance,business as usual and no quick fixes or all behind us by August......sadly

[Tetley]

I receive a lot of support from the people who recognize that I have worked tirelessly for the British community for over 20 years.

Many people read this but say they will not lower themselves to get involved in this tirade.

They are also surprised that the owner of this forum is allowing personal attacks against me without identifying themselves.

Rog
We had a few weeks of pre election bubble/ spin..... on here  infact every body I talked to..... was voting PP

What happened  ?

Roger
This is what I asked......

Why did the PP lose when they were on course for a landslide a week be for vote day

[Cindygirl]

I read all your comments Roger, but unfortunately we come under Cantoria.
It is a shame you cant advise us. We have our AFO and have recently updated our
title deeds, and the price paid was very reasonable, if just for peace of mind.
Welll done for taking the time and effort to try and help people/

[SanJuan]

San Juan, I presume you are aware what happens when owners pass on without at least an AFO ???
Many such as Mustang who posted here got AFOs in order to sell and get out of Arboleas, others got it in order to have the property at least registered in their name.

That may be something forced upon me in the passage of time.

[Johnny73]

San Juan, I presume you are aware what happens when owners pass on without at least an AFO ???
Many such as Mustang who posted here got AFOs in order to sell and get out of Arboleas, others got it in order to have the property at least registered in their name.

[SanJuan]

Come on Guys, this has to STOP.  Some of the rhetoric towards Roger is totally uncalled for.  I have an illegal property in Arboleas, I don't know Roger personally but have welcomed the updates he's made on this forum over the years.  In all the time I have been a member on the forum he seems to be the only individual who has actually posted updates, especially welcome to me as I am resident in the UK. Whether that information has been accurate or not I am not in a position to say but please give the man a break.  Personally, I don't know how he stands it.

I might add I chose not to pay €500 to the Town Hall neither am I in any Escrow Account mentioned on here, despite encouragement and false information being fed to me by the Developer's lawyer. And I won't being getting an AFO.

I am not actually a newbie, just lost my original login data.

Just out of interest, after the years of political and legal back and forth what is the conclusion you have come to about your home in Arboleas ?

Very genuine question .


My conclusion is,if people can do the AFO they should to secure the land title.

Tetley, I have already been to the Notary in respect of the land (Los Torres) so that is not a worry for me. I don't live in fear of it being demolished. One cannot obtain a mortgage for a property with an AFO, that is a negative for me so I am one of the sceptics, and what is to stop the TH dropping off another massive bill if and when Innovation 14 becomes a reality. Look, this particular property was never a personal choice for me, more of an option to recover a debt.

So called  Illegal building has been the scourge of Spain for years, bring in an amnesty for beleaguered owners, prosecute all those devious Developers who say they have no money, make everyone happy so we can all live in peace.

[DLMcN]

Felipe, first, thank you for creating and maintaining this forum: it is both useful and valuable. However, some recent posts really have gone completely "over the top" with personal insults and accusations. If you were to delete those items, and issue a [private] warning** to the guilty party, people would soon get the message and would moderate their behaviour. Facts could and should still be pointed out and questions asked - and more people would probably read and consider them, because there is an unconscious tendency to be put off by texts which contain a mass of inflammatory language.

[^** reminding them of the "Members' Agreement" not to post "any material which is ... defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, ... hateful, harassing", etc.]
David Mc

My observations are this Phil.

It is impossible to demand that people use their real names:  Yes I agree
If I were to shut down this thread, it would start over in a new one: Possibly
If I banned the 'unknowns', they would simply rejoin with a new pseudonym: As far as I am aware nobody has asked for them to be banned

It is possible for moderators to remove posts which are derogatory in nature. For example posts in which someone calls another member a liar or accusing someone of telling lies.

If someone wants to contradict the comments of a poster then it should be done in a civilised way without resorting to insults. If they had gone about it in more rational manner I am sure that many of us would have looked at their comments more objectively. As it is their posts come over as crude and vindictive and undermine any valid points that they may have wanted to have made.

Richard

[rt21]

My observations are this Phil.

It is impossible to demand that people use their real names:  Yes I agree
If I were to shut down this thread, it would start over in a new one: Possibly
If I banned the 'unknowns', they would simply rejoin with a new pseudonym: As far as I am aware nobody has asked for them to be banned

It is possible for moderators to remove posts which are derogatory in nature. For example posts in which someone calls another member a liar or accusing someone of telling lies.

If someone wants to contradict the comments of a poster then it should be done in a civilised way without resorting to insults. If they had gone about it in more rational manner I am sure that many of us would have looked at their comments more objectively. As it is their posts come over as crude and vindictive and undermine any valid points that they may have wanted to have made.

Richard

[Roger]

As for Phil's comment.
I understand that he is in an impossible position.
I have thick skin.
I was simply reporting the comments made to me from people who are fed up with the comments from the former administration.
In my opinion they are only undermining their own credibility.
People know who they are anyway.

[Roger]

Getting back to the real issues.
Tetley asked what has changed.

Well there is a new administration but the problems remain.

The 30 houses in Los Requenas are in limbo.

I estimate that there are still over 100 houses without AFOs.
The Condrey houses in El Prado and Menchones are now being sorted by the builder.
There are people who want to sell but can't afford an AFO.
Their agent is sorting this.

There is still the issue which the new administration has to come to terms with.
Can some of the ARI projects be registered given embargos.
And where will the money for the taxes come from if the ARI projects continue.
This will cause big arguments.

So people still need to be kept up to date.

[felipe]

Everyone believes that cansado is the former mayor, Cristobal.

So Cristobal, publish your list of what you claim are my lies and I will answer each one.

And at the same time explain your lies when you told people with afos that their houses are not legal.
And when you told people if they paid you 500 euros they would get their escrituras in 3 months.
That was 5 years ago.

Roger, and those that have questioned the allowing of posts about him. There has been accusations both ways. It is impossible to demand that people use their real names. This has been discussed many times over the last 15 years. If I were to shut down this thread, it would start over in a new one. Similarly. If I banned the 'unknowns', they would simply rejoin with a new pseudonym. 
Personally, I think it has all been said. That it is maybe time for everyone involved to stop the accusations and LET THE NEW REGIME START GETTING ON WITH THEIR PROMISES.

[Tetley]

Come on Guys, this has to STOP.  Some of the rhetoric towards Roger is totally uncalled for.  I have an illegal property in Arboleas, I don't know Roger personally but have welcomed the updates he's made on this forum over the years.  In all the time I have been a member on the forum he seems to be the only individual who has actually posted updates, especially welcome to me as I am resident in the UK. Whether that information has been accurate or not I am not in a position to say but please give the man a break.  Personally, I don't know how he stands it.

I might add I chose not to pay €500 to the Town Hall neither am I in any Escrow Account mentioned on here, despite encouragement and false information being fed to me by the Developer's lawyer. And I won't being getting an AFO.

I am not actually a newbie, just lost my original login data.

Just out of interest, after the years of political and legal back and forth what is the conclusion you have come to about your home in Arboleas ?

Very genuine question .


My conclusion is,if people can do the AFO they should to secure the land title.

[Tetley]

I receive a lot of support from the people who recognize that I have worked tirelessly for the British community for over 20 years.

Many people read this but say they will not lower themselves to get involved in this tirade.

They are also surprised that the owner of this forum is allowing personal attacks against me without identifying themselves.

Rog
We had a few weeks of pre election bubble/ spin..... on here  infact every body I talked to..... was voting PP

What happened  ?

[Roger]

Everyone believes that cansado is the former mayor, Cristobal.

So Cristobal, publish your list of what you claim are my lies and I will answer each one.

And at the same time explain your lies when you told people with afos that their houses are not legal.
And when you told people if they paid you 500 euros they would get their escrituras in 3 months.
That was 5 years ago.

[Roger]

I receive a lot of support from the people who recognize that I have worked tirelessly for the British community for over 20 years.

Many people read this but say they will not lower themselves to get involved in this tirade.

They are also surprised that the owner of this forum is allowing personal attacks against me without identifying themselves.

[Angleseyite]

Time to call it a day on this one!!
 me thinks

[Johnny73]

Quote Cansado ( Johnny 73 will soon receive the title of fan of gold, open your eyes and start being objective in his comments.)

Been called many things but that's a cracker. Thanks.🙉🙈😂🙉
Lighten up , have a vino and relax.

[SanJuan]

Come on Guys, this has to STOP.  Some of the rhetoric towards Roger is totally uncalled for.  I have an illegal property in Arboleas, I don't know Roger personally but have welcomed the updates he's made on this forum over the years.  In all the time I have been a member on the forum he seems to be the only individual who has actually posted updates, especially welcome to me as I am resident in the UK. Whether that information has been accurate or not I am not in a position to say but please give the man a break.  Personally, I don't know how he stands it.

I might add I chose not to pay €500 to the Town Hall neither am I in any Escrow Account mentioned on here, despite encouragement and false information being fed to me by the Developer's lawyer. And I won't being getting an AFO.

I am not actually a newbie, just lost my original login data.

[CANSADO]

Roger, I would like to apologize, this week I have been very busy and I have not been able to highlight your lies.

I have seen that you have written a lot about what interests you, you write a lot but answer few, diverting attention is your thing.

I see that little by little other users are appearing that demonstrate the falsehood of Roger's comments, in this sense, I would like to congratulate "palminspain", with your brilliant post you have humiliated Mr. Roger Done.

Could someone tell me why Mr. Roger does not answer to palminspain comments????? He just changes the subject.....

Mr. Roger, you are very predictable, first you make comments with lies and false accusations that you cannot prove and when you are discovered you begin to write a lot, a lot, a lot...... but no response, do you think that this way we will forget your lies?

The time for lies and accusations without evidence is over in this forum.

By the way, I'm still waiting for you to answer my questions.

Johnny 73 will soon receive the title of fan of gold, open your eyes and start being objective in his comments.

                                Roger Done, the man of 1,000 lies

[Johnny73]

Great post Malcolm, now perhaps some of the others in your group and elsewhere that Roger has and is assisting totally free of charge make themselves known here and back up Roger who is under attack from the previous Town Hall Admin heirarchy.
Come on folks !!

[Malcolm]

Hassan, I am someone who has been helped by Roger and he has been very supportive over the years at no cost whatsoever. He arranged an escrow account for the residents in our street, if you don't know what that is there is a good explanation on Wikipedia (in Spanish for those that need it) and I believe that an official from Madrid came to Arboleas and praised the Mayor for his efforts and thought it was a good idea. Roger then negotiated with Promar and got them to agree to pay for architects projects and subsequently AFO payments to the TH We then formed a condominium and have escrituras for the land so that any embargo's should not affect us and all we are waiting for at the moment is for the land to be segregated. We have an excellent lawyer on Roger's recommendation and a builder who is working with us to achieving our AFO. The builder won't get any money until we do. Without Roger's help we would not be in the position we are now. Roger or myself have absolutely not used any of this escrow account for anything other than it's purpose.

[Johnny73]

Spot on Hassan, we all have to decide who is telling lies and I know who I believe. Mustangs post said he was lied to by everyone starting at the Town hall and he is not the only one. Roger should just get on with life and leave them to it. And yes ,where are all the illegal homeowners he has and is acting for to get their homes at least partially legalised.
Poor state of affairs when two of the most senior members of the previous Admin in the TH and the newbie have to spout more info to make us believe that they did nothing wrong in the last number of years. Did nothing morelike on the illegal housing front.
Let's now see what the new Admin do  and consign the previous Admin to a well earned rest. ( Please )
Elections over , move on guys.

[hassan]

This is turning into a "he said-she said" now that we finally have someone from the Ayuntamiento responding. Who's telling the truth? I don't see any posts from the owners of these properties backing Roger on here. They're leaving it up to him to sort out and take the flack while they sit at bars enjoying themselves like the cackling and guffawing group outside Longo's early in the year mentioning your name Roger saying how you were cheaper than an Abogado and the profit they'll make on their property when they get AFO's. I suppose then they can sell it to another mug to worry about. I really wish you'd stuck to your word Roger and enjoyed your life. They don't deserve your effort.

[Tetley]

Pepa's decision to break away from the PSOE must have been a very significant factor. A united PSOE would probably have retained enough Spanish votes to ensure at least six seats.

Correct but it's time to move on with all this and let the PP team administer Arboleas.

The good news is

We have the Arboleas youth/Under 40,s interested  local polatics which is good for the village/town

[DLMcN]

Pepa's decision to break away from the PSOE must have been a very significant factor. A united PSOE would probably have retained enough Spanish votes to ensure at least six seats.