Arboleas Community Forum

The new PP administration has officially declared that they will not be charging the builders the urbanization costs of the innovation 14 houses, but will be requiring the residents to pay.

This is in direct contradiction to the election promise.
It seems that they are intent to lose the next election.

for anybody interested all the info on who pays what is below and has been for years...


Roger do you seriously believe that anybody gives a monkey ,s arse in Madrid,Brussels or London  about a few EX EU British Citizens ......?

our rights now are about the same as an Afgan English  channel rubber  boater ..... :blank:

were as before Maura & AUAN Members & supporters had Brussels/EU  on side.....so the Brits sadly are now .....Foooooohed  :blank: unless Lord Cameroon is parachuted in to sort it  all .....  :lipsrsealed:





https://www.boe.es/buscar/act.php?id=BOE-A-2016-8402




http://www.almanzora-au.org/?fbclid=IwAR0HZ1Ai5YXjpo5V_JZpzwFl-2cokbKuhI7fj78gYwZL-HIht_zXwDbkoZM_aem_AU40vaVfjt7tbp9UAPiQw8Cp0vGI3JlP7xG37-0FJ3pOMdNy1n9HaNRBjcRdV1pvVwcOU7489jfiREvpPOIqtuIQ

Reading Rogers post and the other one by JuanC on the recent meeting and other meetings it would appear to us that the new TH Council and Mayor have no interest whatsoever in expat housing problems or any other problems that expats might have. Just screw  the unfortunate homeowner who they gave planning permission to and let the builders and developers have a holiday.
I think the devil you know is better than the devil you don't applies to the old Admin.👹
All the Town Halls in Spain and most mayors are related to the builders developers etc so nothing will change.
Living the dream eh.??

When the execution of the planning is carried out through the compensation system or another type of system by which a collaborating urban planning entity is established, the aforementioned entity will be obliged to allocate the fees and contributions made by each of the owners to the execution of the infrastructures, works and services of the phase, area or block to which said person's plot belongs, in order to guarantee the viability of the action and the effective execution of the urbanization, as well as the assumption of rights once the duties inherent to each owner. "

Viva Espana 🎉🎉. Now back to more serious matters . When is the next fiesta. TH are great at organising parades, fireworks,bangers etc.
Can't wait.
😅💃💃

Quote from: Tetley on April 10, 2024, 09:18:49 AMfor anybody interested all the info on who pays what is below and has been for years...


Roger do you seriously believe that anybody gives a monkey ,s arse in Madrid,Brussels or London  about a few EX EU British Citizens ......?

our rights now are about the same as an Afgan English  channel rubber  boater ..... :blank:

were as before Maura & AUAN Members & supporters had Brussels/EU  on side.....so the Brits sadly are now .....Foooooohed  :blank: unless Lord Cameroon is parachuted in to sort it  all .....  :lipsrsealed:





https://www.boe.es/buscar/act.php?id=BOE-A-2016-8402




http://www.almanzora-au.org/?fbclid=IwAR0HZ1Ai5YXjpo5V_JZpzwFl-2cokbKuhI7fj78gYwZL-HIht_zXwDbkoZM_aem_AU40vaVfjt7tbp9UAPiQw8Cp0vGI3JlP7xG37-0FJ3pOMdNy1n9HaNRBjcRdV1pvVwcOU7489jfiREvpPOIqtuIQ

Sorry Tets but when have our rights in England, Spain or Outer Mongolia been equal to the rights of an Afghan on a rubber boat?

Timb the Afgan chap in the boat will have the same rights in spain/EU as a non EU 3rd state national Brit ie there both 3rd state nationals now, with no eu citizenship rights

hence no body gives a monkeys about the Afgan chap or the Brit ,

in fact in the UK  there probably more concerned about the Afgan chap than they are about the  home situation in Arboleas.... because the boat folks turning up in there  1000,s will be a Tory vote looser.

but hey ho , pool half full  ::)  ,

if Lord Cams does turn up for a look .....

lets hope the water,s on for a shower .... lol  :afro:

Quote from: Roger on April 09, 2024, 12:34:10 PMThe new PP administration has officially declared that they will not be charging the builders the urbanization costs of the innovation 14 houses, but will be requiring the residents to pay.

This is in direct contradiction to the election promise.
It seems that they are intent to lose the next election.

That^ probably means that more people will vote against continuing with Innovation 14 - which could well result in the whole process being shelved and forgotten - [except, perhaps for Las Requeñas and el Campillo?] ... Of course, a new administration in the future could always try and revive it, but that would be somewhat difficult.

David

ino 14 as been on hold since nov 2019 awaiting amendments .......and further compliance. 

Quote from: Tetley on April 11, 2024, 10:36:46 AMDavid

ino 14 as been on hold since nov 2019 awaiting amendments .......and further compliance.

Mr. Tetley, with all my respect, I think you are wrong in this point, and I think that it is neccesary clearify this point.

The approvation of Innovation 14 set the legal base to legalize and resolve the problem of illegal houses in Arboleas. Thanks to the innovation 14, all the houses in rustic land change to urban not consolidated land. Arboleas is one of the few town with this legal achievement. Moreover, the innovation 14 allow develop the ARIs to legalize totally the houses with all their rigths.

You can read in this link (https://www.juntadeandalucia.es/boja/2019/229/21)(You has shared this information time ago), that all the Innovation 14 is approved except this two points:

• Some problems in the industrial área
• Some problems with old traditional houses

This two points dont affected to the main problem of illegal houses. All the other points has no problems and they are approved, you can read it. Even Roger has also confirmed in this forum, the success and the big step of the innovation 14. This is true. For this reason, now, the land is urban not consolidated and the ARIs can be developed to legalise the houses finally. The difficults now are who pay the urbanization cost. Obviously, the costs must be paid by promoters.

In the other hand, Some people are against the Innovation 14 and ARIs. To that people, i woul like ask a question:

Are there alternatives to Innovation 14 and ARIs to legalize totally the illegal houses? The response is easy: No. Nobody, in all this time, has explained or show another alternative, because there isn't it.

The only solution gived is make AFO, but the AFO dont resolve totally the problem. The owners would follow with a house without all their rights. This is a big lie telled during the elections campaign. Fortunatelly, Maura explain very  well this situation in her last post.

Quote from: DLMcN date=1712828206hat^ probably means that more people will vote against continuing with Innovation 14 - which could well result in the whole process being shelved and forgotten - [except, perhaps for Las Requeñas and el Campillo?] ... Of course, a new administration in the future could always try and revive it, but that would be somewhat difficult.
 

Mr. DLMcN, what alternative have the owners affected by Innovation 14? An AFO for the eternity? A house without all their rights until their death? One thing is clear, be against the ARIs development is follow with the problem. Delay the ARIs development dont resolve the problem, the problem will continue and there are not alternatives. The legal solution to their problem is thanks to the Innovation 14 and ARIs.

And about the costs, everybody knows perfectly that a legal house has better market price and better legal security than an AFO. The maximum aspiration of an owner should be to legalize his property completely. But If you dont want continue waiting or you dont have money, you can sell the house with lower price, and the new owner continue with the problem and decide the solution.

And a last thing: If somebody has an alternative solution to Innovation 14 and ARIs to legalize the houses totally, he/she can explain here. We will pleased to read and lisen it.

thats fine Palms, but how i read it is innovation 14 was on hold awaiting further compliance ,

if your telling us it is not then that is, wonderful

and now it is indeed time for the town hall and property owners to forge ahead  should they wish wile there is a will on all sides to progress .

onwards & upwards  and thank you for your detailed reply  :wink:

The problem is that as this has been ongoing for years now with no resolution many involved homeowners have died and left a mess for their relations to deal with.
Hence the advantage of an AFO and at least they can either sell as many have done or have ownership if they pass on.
Those that buy at reduced prices or inheritors can wait for many more years for it to be sorted
It's outrageous that those who bought in good faith should be forced to pay for the illegal mess created by crooked developers and town halls who watched on and in some cases assisted

As Johnny73 well says, after all this waiting time, the AFO can be the best solution for those people. You sell the house with a lower price but you get the freedom and you don't pay the possible urbanization costs. I think it's a balanced compensation after too waiting time.

The reality is that the problem of illegal houses in Arboleas and other towns in the region is very complex and requires the participation and collaboration of many affected people and elements. The difference with other towns is that Arboleas has the legal base to legalize the situation thanks to innovation 14.

During the elections, people in this forum offered quick and magical solutions. They said that we had to vote to the PP and everything would be resolved on August 2023. All of this were false promises that they knew perfectly well and they cant keep, as we are seeing now, because the situation is very complex and there are not magic solutions.

To set the legal basis to resolve the illegal houses problem, The former team in the town hall (Cristobal 2011-2023) needed the develop of 3 innovations (Innovación 12, 13 y 14) during 6 years. This was a big achievement that required numerous resources and time. Roger knows this complexity perfectly and I have explained it in this forum several times.

This work can be compared with the period 2003-2011. Remember that during the government of Angel García (PP Number 5) and partners (2003-2011), they developed 11 Innovations to get nothing, as Roger also commented sometimes in this forum.

ONE IMPORTANT DETAIL: When the former team (Cristobal) and Roger took the town hall in 2011, there were more than 1,000 illegal houses in Arboleas, due to the urban disaster made by Angel García (PP Nº 5) and partners with their 11 innovations . In fact, the urban law was worse than 2003. For this reason, the former team with Roger developed the innovation 12 and 13 to recover the situation before 2003. As if that weren't enough, the town hall had more than 3.5M € of debt. 12 years of government seems like a long time, but with these serious problems, I think that everything is better understood. Roger can confirm this information, I have explained all these problems in this forum.

The next step was the ARIs/PERIs development. The former team develops 14 ARIs from 2018 until 2023. More hard work with a lot of people affected and interests in conflict. To see the complexity of those documents, everyone can see the example of La Perla ARI in the town hall website:

• ARI La Perla (https://arboleas.sedelectronica.es/transparency/450766b6-f293-49c9-b963-af278684a902/)

Obviously, most of people like us don't know the complexity of these tasks and problems. It requires long time. For this reason, It is normal that people decide to change the mayor to someone who promises you a quick solution after 12 years waiting. But now, We can see and live, that there isn't a quick solution for a complex problem.

A clear example of these serious difficulties is the case of Los Torres. The real problem of these owners is with their promoters: they continue with embargo on their plots and a very complicated situation and relationship with them. They have an AFO but they can't still make the "escritura" due to the promoter (The former team in the TH had not responsability in this issue as somebody said in this fourm). Furthermore, the money to pay the possible urbanization costs has "disappeared" from the bank account of these owners. In this case, unfortunately, the victims have again been deceived with false promises and quick solutions as we can see now. During the election campaign the problem was the "politician", now, with a new politicians, the problem continues. It is not just a political issue.

Worst of all in Los Torres case, they voted again to the people who earned money with the sale of the rustic land where their houses were built and who allowed their illegal houses to be built, as is the case of number five of the PP ( Angel García).

Anyway, now, It is necessary the ARIs and PERIs implementation with the parcelling and urbanization. The new government must show its capacity and will to resolve the problem, as they promised us during the elections campaign. I hope they achieve it, but like many people around here, I have my doubts.

Please clarify how the money has disappeared from the owners bank account on Los Torres, are you alluding to the escrow account?

Quote from: SanJuan on April 14, 2024, 08:07:12 AMPlease clarify how the money has disappeared from the owners bank account on Los Torres, are you alluding to the escrow account?

There is a person in this forum who can give you all the responses. You can imagine who is he.

Palminspain is demeaning herself by publishing false and distorted information, clearly under the instructions of the PSOE opposition.
She should be honest and open and publish in her own name.

I will publish the true situation regarding the housing situation in Arboleas, to follow ....

_______________________________________________________________________

However I must state the facts concerning the Los Torres Escrow account, to counter the lie that money has gone missing.

All expenditure from the account has been correctly controlled by various lawyers, representatives of the clients, and me.
It has been used to install vital infrastructure, in particular a water supply and an electric supply.
This was not installed by the builder.
It has also been used to pay for architect projects and AFO certificates for the clients.

There is still over 100k left in the account.

The tax embargo against Promar share of the finca remains.
But this is a combined embargo also on Promar land in El Rincon and Los Carrascos.
Promar has tried for the past 6 years to get a settlement figure from the Hacienda concerning the share of the embargo on Los Torres, without any success.

While the embargo remains it will not be possible for the Town Hall to proceed with the Parcelisation Project for Los Torres, or for Los Carrascos.

It does not however prevent the segregation of each plot using an AFO certificate.

The current issue with Los Torres and the problem for the clients with AFOs is that Promar has had its licence to trade suspended by a judge, on a totally different issue.
Until it is renewed Promar cannot sign to transfer the land individually to the clients by segregating the condominio under the terms of the AFO certificates.
We are waiting for the Hacienda to complete the process, and the escrow account has been making payments to the hacienda as requested to hopefully get this sorted.
The problem would be if the hacienda demands full payment of the debt before agreeing to return the registration, because there was never going to be enough money in the escrow account to cover this.

This problem with the builder is nothing to do with AFOs or ARIs.
It is a legal problem with the builder and the Courts.
Out of the hands of the Town Hall or lawyers.
It is a stark warning to anyone, whichever their builder, that you should act immediately to segregate your land with an AFO and thus obtain your escritura.
No one can foresee what might happen.

So in a nutshell its a Compleat X ing disaster that was never going to be behind anybody buy August .

as we say in Engineering

the Jobs Fxxx,ed.  

FIN  :(

As a representative of the clients in Los Torres I can assure you that Roger is correct in what he says about the escrow. In fact he has underestimated considerably. It needs my signature to release any money so if it's (sic) disappeared then you can't trust anyone can you.

I will publish a full history of how Arboleas got to this state.

However just to correct another lie.

Between 2000 and 2018 1680 houses were built.

Of these 300 were illegal, in that they were built on rustic land.

The rest were in Urban Limbo, to quote the planning officials in Almeria.
This is because they were built on land which had not been registered by the Town Hall (Cristobal was Mayor at the time) with the planning office in Almeria, which was required by the LOUA published in December 2002.

Angel Garcia took office on the death of Paco, in February 2009.
None of the illegal houses were built during Angels period of office.
In fact almost all building had ceased by then,
All the illegal houses were built under the regime of Cristobal and his Deputy Paco, who took over in June 2003 when Cristobal decided not to stand for election, to pursue private work.

The Town Hall under the coalition.
_________________________________________________________________

I supported the PP at the last election because like many I had lost trust with the former Mayor.
I will criticise the new administration when I disagree with them.
But it is important that we understand the facts.
________________________________________________________________

It has been reported by the PSOE that the new administration has said that the PP will not levy urbanization taxes for illegal houses against the builders.
This is the same policy as the PSOE when in office.
WHY?
Because IF they proceed with the Parcelisation Projects (as the PSOE said they would) then these taxes ultimately will be levied on the houses.
And we all know that the builders will not pay.

The difference with the new administration is that, at the Los Torres meeting, they made it publicly clear that they will only proceed with this IF over 50% of the residents agree.
That statement was nodded to by both the Mayor and Deputy Mayor.

However Pepa, the Independent Deputy Mayor, made it clear that if the current administration did not proceed (because of the wishes of the residents) this would not prevent a future PSOE administration from doing so in the future.

______________________________________________________________________

LOS REQUENAS

Another distinction from the previous administration.

In November 2022 Cristobal published a photo of him handing over the Parcelisation Project for Los Requenas to the Land Registry.
He has since publicly criticised the PP for the fact that it has not been approved.

I have seen the Project as submitted by Cristobal.
It contained a copy of an outstanding mortgage against a plot of land that has to be transferred to the Town Hall.
The mortgage is not in the name of the builder but of a local Spanish resident.

Clearly this prevented approval.
Why was it presented when it was clearly not correct?
Clear example of misinformation from the previous administration.

I have been informed that this has now been rectified by the Town Hall, and I am trying to get an update from the land registry (which is very difficult).

So how did all this happen?

Mid 1990s the Mayor, Cristobal, decided that Arboleas needed to expand and the best way was to encourage British tourists.
He didn't want a big company like MASA to build, so encouraged local small builders.
In my opinion a sensible approach.
However there are consequences.
The small builders did not have the resources to put in the infrastructure so this legal requirement was ignored, leaving the cost in the future to the Town Hall and the council tax payer.

As well as the problem with infrastructure
There were organization problems.

There was also virtually no control from the Town Hall.
No control where houses were built, urban or rustic.
Often houses were built without architect projects or licences, even when on urban land.
Land was segregated without payment of urbanization taxes, and often no planning map.
Streets without names and houses with just the builders plot number, making it difficult to register people on the padron or for basuras, causing many long term problems with double billing.
Segregated land was not registered with the catastro office, so no one was paying council tax, leaving the Town hall broke.

Many people found they had no occupation licences for their houses, or licences for pools.
Houses with temporary water and electric, if they had it at all.
Builders had often tapped into existing water supplies suitable to feed a few farm houses, to build a new estate.

Visiting lawyers called this "the wild west" or "Taliban country".

When Angel Garcia gave me a help desk office in the Town Hall, and invited me to join the PSOE team, this is the mess I found.

And the Urban Plan which Cristobal had produced years earlier had never been registered, so the Town Hall had to start again.
Angel used the consultant architect he had inherited from the previous two mayors.
The result was a disaster, and the plan was rejected.

That is where we started in June 2011.

There is no doubt that Cristobal and the team in 2011 did a good job in starting to solve some of these problems.

He had the advantage of a team of Mirella and Geraldo, and my information I had been preparing for over 2 years.
But of course we should not overlook the fact that most of these problems started when he was in office up to June 2003.

Many of the problems have been sorted, but I have no doubt some will continue indefinitely.

so Roger ...we have had all the history ..... 

so now down to the business  

how are you & and the good people of los torment  going to get the embargos lifted ?


 ie who is going to pay to settle the debts to lift the embargos  ?

and 

who is going to pay for the i frastructure  ? ie the village peoples through there taxes or the home owners 

The embargo is against the builder for unpaid taxes.
Only he can settle that.
Since he is no longer trading that isn't going to happen.
Just one more Spanish company reneging on their tax obligation and then disappearing.
Very common.

As for the infrastructure in Los Torres.
Mostly complete thanks to the escrow account, which in effect means that the clients could force the builder to pay, because any final balance goes to the builder.

Remember that for the past 12 years the town hall has been using council tax money to complete infrastructure which the various builders were allowed to avoid.

Who holds the escrow account?

The clients but the lawyer representing the builder has to agree.
In effect a triple lock.

But the first call on the account is to pay for infrastructure and client costs.
Anything left goes to the builder, which won't be enough by a long way to pay the tax debt

Is Promar in Administration?

so thats it then Roger ....its finished because there is no chance of getting the tax debt paid and the embargo lifted .

:blank:

FIN.

I see too much confusion in this unnecessary debate. To clarify, the norm that Roger says that Cristóbal finally failed to approve and that Ángel came to solve is the General Urban Planning Plan of Arboleas, approved in 1997 by Cristóbal. This plan created the breeding ground for the future development of Arboleas.

Cristóbal retired from this city council in 2003. Paco was mayor and Ángel was Paco's deputy mayor. Seeing the disaster of his former colleagues, where some councilors sold rural land for his family to build illegal homes (Los Torres), Cristóbal ran for election in 2007, with the bases of the team that won in 2011, for the PSA against the government of Paco, Ángel and which Roger supported.

That is to say, Cristóbal already wanted to redirect the disastrous situation in 2007 and the team of Paco and Ángel supported by Roger won, illegal houses continued to be built and no problem was solved regarding the legality of any home.

Finally, Roger realized the failed government that he supported and opted for the PSA in 2011, where, from my point of view, he did a good job collaborating in the approval of innovation 12-13 that solved the disaster caused by Ángel that left 2 thousand houses in a limbo of legality and approving the innovation 14 that would allow, through the ARIs, to solve the rest of the problems.

A town hall is obliged to solve the problems of the neighbors and, one of them, is to legalize their homes. Roger, I think you should think about studying a new solution seeing the problems that have appeared, but AFOs are not a definitive solution nor a solution for new buyers. We are going to try to work on a definitive solution, which is what we are working on and have almost defined and finally solve this problem for the current and future neighbors. It has already been seen that this administration is a disaster in the area of urban planning and in everything in general, in less than a year they have destroyed all the good functioning of the administration, we are the only ones who have managed to organize urban planning with valid documents and useful, Roger if you want to solve the problem, let's talk and find solutions.

From the PSOE we are not interested in fighting with any neighbor, we are working on a serious electoral program to solve the problems of Arboleas and redirect the current poor functioning of the City Council in view of the 2027 elections. There is still plenty of time and, for the moment , we can only help the residents of Arboleas from the opposition. Good night.

I was not involved in local politics until April 2009, when I set up a help desk for British residents with housing problems.
I was not involved in any way with the elections in 2003 and 2007.

But what is relevant is the policy of the previous administration.
Residents were repeatedly told they would have to pay costs of infrastructure and urbanization taxes.
Repeated face to face by the deputy mayor, Mike, repeated on this forum, and put in writing to the residents of Los Torres that they would have to pay 30,000 euros for their parcelisation project.

Easy to reinvent your policy now in opposition.
It's what politicians always do.

Back to Business 

Roger

WHAT is your plan for financing the lifting of the embargo/s on Los Torres ?

In summary, the members of the current PP government team are directly related to the time of the construction of the illegal houses and are supported by the people who caused the problems for the neighbors. The members of the PSOE are those who approved the PGOU of Arboleas, those who urbanized the neighborhoods in ARIs to save costs for the neighbors if the promoters refused to pay them and those who approved Innovation 14 to which you cling to say that the AFOs are on urban land. The AFOs are on urban land because Innovation 14 was approved, I repeat, which ended by developing the ARIs to legalize the properties that are on urban land. Cristóbal made this innovation to conclude the housing legalization process, there is nothing more.

Putting a balance, on the one hand we have the PP directly related to and supported by people who participated during the process in which the majority of British residents were scammed and, on the other hand, we have the PSOE, which you judge by its form to legalize housing but celebrates Innovation 14 that makes AFOs on urban land. We are clear about it, we are always on the side of the victims and we continue to look for future and definitive solutions to the problem instead of fighting the past that does little to solve the victims. One thing we do know, the PP's promises of papers for homes in August and at 0 cost for residents will never come with this government.

Furthermore, I encourage the current government to discuss their problems and doubts with their neighbors. Mike participated in this forum to resolve the different doubts of neighbors that arose during our government. The problem that since June 2023, European residents have ceased to exist for the City Council, they can always rectify and debate these matters to which they seem oblivious.

Good morning.

Quote from: Roger on April 15, 2024, 07:34:30 AMI was not involved in local politics until April 2009, when I set up a help desk for British residents with housing problems.
I was not involved in any way with the elections in 2003 and 2007.

But what is relevant is the policy of the previous administration.
Residents were repeatedly told they would have to pay costs of infrastructure and urbanization taxes.
Repeated face to face by the deputy mayor, Mike, repeated on this forum, and put in writing to the residents of Los Torres that they would have to pay 30,000 euros for their parcelisation project.

Easy to reinvent your policy now in opposition.
It's what politicians always do.

The only person who is demeaning himself by publishing false and distorted information is you Roger.

First of all, thanks Roger to confirm my words. As you well say, the main problem are the promoters not the politicians as you said in electoral campaign. Dont be annoyed, read again my last response, You and me say the same.

Your chronology of events is full of lies and manipulation as always. You dont show the dates and mix periods to hide the real guilty. Fortunately, You will give response to your own lies. The history is very different as you tell in 2011:

Roger (March 21, 2011) - LINK (https://arboleas.co.uk/forum/index.php?msg=246640):

Quote from: Roger"People seem to try to paint a bad picture of the way things were done under Cristobal and the present Mayor (Angel García) is claiming that it is all Cristobal's fault. The truth is very different.

I remember the position in 1998 when I came here and Cristobal was Mayor.

Each urban centre was allowed to expand by 80 metres to incorporate the first stages of the new housing development. The Junta approved this.

Then in 2001, under subsidiary norms, each urban centre was expanded more, and these plans were approved by the Junta.

This expansion accounts for most of the new housing developments, which are legal because of the plans which Cristobal prepared.

This is why Arboleas is in a much better situation to other towns.

Cristobal retired from politics in May 2003.

Unfortunately the modifications to the urban plan, which Cristobal had prepared, were not submitted to the Junta in 2004/5 as they should have been. However housing was still allowed on this land, the housing which accounts for the illegal builds.

It is true that a few houses were built on rustic land at the end of Cristobal's tenure as Mayor, because a builder anticipated the modifications which were on the table but not implemented by the new administration.

The other important task which should have been implemented by the new administration was an upgrading of the infrastructure to make the town suitable for the population increase from 1700 to 5000. Also to make good any missing infrastructure in order to consolidate the urban areas as required by the new law (LOUA) which came into force early in 2003.

This was not done and hence the situation we now find ourselves in which we are being told that all house owners may have to contribute to this.

The reason Cristobal has decided to return to politics is to sort out the urban mess.

Roger (July 16, 2011) -LINK (https://arboleas.co.uk/forum/index.php?msg=269655):

Quote from: Roger"As a result of the Urban Plan prepared by the previous administration in May 2009, almost all the land in Arboleas has been changed from its Urban status under the 2001 plan, to Non Consolidated Urbanisable. This covers around 2000 houses, both new builds and old cortijos."

People can complete your responses with this info and have a better information about these dark years. I think all is clear. But the origin of all the problems in Arboleas is Cristobal for you... You dont have shame.

If Cristobal is the corrupt, the dictator and the origin of all this disaster, why did you join to him in 2011? Why?

Your strategy is clear: save Angel García (2003-2011) to blame Cristobal. I cant belive how you can still defend him. Are you saying that Angel García as deputy mayor didn't see how the ilegal houses popped up like mushrooms in Arboleas? His family was building ilegal houses while he was in the town hall and he earned money with the sale of rustic land. What do you need more? Your defense only serves a political strategy or personal revenge.

Moreover, you says this about Angel García governement in the 2011 elections:

Roger (July 31, 2010) - LINK  (https://arboleas.co.uk/forum/index.php?msg=196837):

Quote from: Roger"I am more interested in solving the problems of the local people of Arboleas than being nice to corrupt politicians.
The standard practice is getting votes by bribes and threats.
We expect hundreds of British voting applications to go missing in the Town Hall.
We expect some British will be bribed to go on the PSOE list.
We know we will have to find a non corrupt lawyer from out of town to protect the British votes.
In the past Spanish have been bribed and threatened to remove themselves from the PSA list."

An important detail: Cristobal didnt choose Francisco (2003-2009) as sucesor and mayor. He was elected by PSOE members in 2002. The most strange is this:

Roger (July 31, 2010) - LINK (https://arboleas.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=18679.msg90012#msg90012):

Quote from: Roger"When I met the Mayor, Francisco (2003-2009), I saw a kind and genuine person who wanted an integrated community and was working hard for everyone, and I was therefore concerned when he nearly lost control at the last election"

If you say that Angel inherited all the problems of Francisco and Cristobal, Why did you concerned when Angel and Paco nearly lost control at the election in 2007? Maybe, because was Cristobal in the other political party in that elections? Why? One thing is clear, You were surrounded by urban corruption and ilegal houses like a blind man, but the problem was Cristobal....

About the escrow account in Los Torres, the problem is not the system to release the money, is what you pay with that money.

PD: I am not the PSOE versión. The PSOE versión is other post. Dont wrong

As a representative of Los Torres are you saying that payments have been made not related to the conditions of this account? I don't see any in the records that I hold.

People don't care about who said what 20 years ago.

What they care about is now.

The previous administration told people with afos very clearly that they would have to pay the urbanization and infrastructure costs.
That's a fact.

And they had no choice whether or not to get afos because after 8 years from getting innovation 14 approved not one parcelisation project had been approved.

Total incompetence.
And demanding that the British residents had to pay.

What is your policy on this NOW?

When you get a min Rog in the bunker can you do us this one .  :afro:



Back to Business 

Roger

WHAT is your plan for financing the lifting of the embargo/s on Los Torres ?

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La innovación 14 no se aprobó hace 8 años. Tras aprobarla tocaba desarrollarla y se aprobaron 14 ARIs donde el ARI de El German ya esta concluido, por ejemplo y la mala administración actual ha paralizado por falta de gestión el ARI de Los Requenas y el de El Campillo.

Una innovación se aprueba para después desarrollarla. La innovacion 14 se aprobó para poner las casas en suelo Urbano y los ARIs sirven para consolidar el suelo urbano, esto lo entiende incluso un niño.

Se ha invertido en las barriadas afectadas por los ARIs para rebajar los costes. Por ejemplo, el alumbrado de Los Torres y la zona verde las pago el Ayuntamiento, también en Los Higuerales, C/Zoraida de La Perla y eso rebaja los costes del ARI.

Nosotros teniamos un plan para solucionar este problema sin ninguna duda, falsas promesas y mentiras daban soluciones milagrosas que ahora no existen.

Lo de que deben pagar 30 mil euros es una tonteria enorme. Seamos serios, hay que pagar la urbanización y cesiones restantes, esto lo entiende cualquiera. Debe pagarlo el PROMOTOR, como en Los Requenas, también lo entiende cualquiera.

Donde el PROMOTOR haya desaparecido, el ayuntamiento debe estudiar una nueva solución para las victimas donde se vean afectadas en la menor medida de lo posible, nunca 30 ni 20 mil euros.

Tenemos en nuestro equipo gente especializada en urbanismo, por eso no entendemos algunas promesas como que todo estaría resuelto en agosto con el gobierno del PP, nosotros somos serios y buscamos soluciones posibles no sueños ni ilusiones que luego no se pueden cumplir.

Se empezó por Los Requenas porque los promotores de esta zona estaban dispuestos a pagar en 2022, tras aprobar los 14 ARIs.

El problema es que ahora estamos en la fase de desarrollar los ARIs y tenemos el gobierno equivocado para esta tarea que dice que va a paralizar todo y que no tiene un plan alternativo. El gobierno de los papeles de legalidad en agosto ofrece no hacer nada mientras ellos gobiernen. En fin, no estamos para debatir tonterías, hay que ser más serios ya que estamos hablando de problemas que afectan a las personas.

Usted, como militante del PSOE, esta invitado a colaborar cuando quiera, escuchamos a cualquiera que pueda sumar al proyecto de solucionar los problemas a los vecinos.

Una cosa si es cierta, nosotros no paralizaremos las cosas por incapacidad de gestión como el actual gobierno. Y repito, el actual gobierno debería pedir disculpas a las victimas que engaño prometiendo papeles de legalidad en agosto porque su plan actual es la paralización. No se debe jugar con las victimas nunca más.
Innovation 14 was not approved 8 years ago. After approving it, it was time to develop it and 14 ARIs were approved where the ARI of El German is already concluded, for example, and the current poor administration has paralyzed the ARI of Los Requenas and El Campillo due to lack of management.

An innovation is approved and then developed. Innovation 14 was approved to put houses on Urban land and the ARIs serve to consolidate urban land, even a child understands this.

Investment has been made in the neighborhoods affected by the ARIs to reduce costs. For example, the lighting of Los Torres and the green area is paid for by the City Council, also in Los Higuerales, C/Zoraida de La Perla and this reduces the costs of the ARI.

We had a plan to solve this problem without a doubt, false promises and lies gave miraculous solutions that now do not exist.

The thing about them having to pay 30 thousand euros is enormous nonsense. Let's be serious, you have to pay for the urbanization and remaining assignments, anyone understands this. The PROMOTER must pay it, as in Los Requenas, anyone also understands it.

Where the PROMOTER has disappeared, the city council must study a new solution for the victims where they are affected to the smallest extent possible, never 30 or 20 thousand euros.

We have people specialized in urban planning in our team, that is why we do not understand some promises such as that everything would be resolved in August with the PP government, we are serious and we look for possible solutions, not dreams or illusions that cannot be fulfilled later.

It started with Los Requenas because the developers of this area were willing to pay in 2022, after approving the 14 ARIs.

The problem is that we are now in the phase of developing the ARIs and we have the wrong government for this task, which says that it is going to paralyze everything and that it has no alternative plan. The government of legality papers in August offers to do nothing while they govern. Anyway, we are not here to debate nonsense, we have to be more serious since we are talking about problems that affect people.

You, as a member of the PSOE, are invited to collaborate whenever you want, we listen to anyone who can add to the project of solving the problems of the neighbors.

One thing is certain, we will not paralyze things due to management inability like the current government. And I repeat, the current government should apologize to the victims that it deceived by promising legality papers in August because its current plan is paralysis. Victims should not be played with anymore.

JuanC - What is your opinion regarding the PP decision to call for a vote on whether to continue with Innovation 14? .... i.e., not to proceed with a particular area if the majority of residents there are against it?

Regards, David Mc

An embargo against Promar for unpaid taxes. I understand there is another from Andalusian Government, what is that for?  Plus bank overdrafts, are they still unpaid?

Quote from: DLMcN on April 15, 2024, 16:17:40 PMJuanC - What is your opinion regarding the PP decision to call for a vote on whether to continue with Innovation 14? .... i.e., not to proceed with a particular area if the majority of residents there are against it?

Regards, David Mc

Hello David,

We do not agree to paralyze a legalization process indefinitely for Arboleas. Before making this decision, we would think about a more advantageous solution for the neighbors and, even more so, if the administration of the Junta de Andalucía is from the same political party as ours city ��hall.

If we proposed to do nothing during our mandate because we didnt know how to manage the problems of Arboleas, like the current government team, we would not run in the municipal elections.

One stands for election to improve the lives of neighbors and not to increase one's salary and not manage anything during one's term. We would consider the fact of lying in our promises and showing up only to have a salary a scam to the neighbors.

An advantageous solution to the problems must be sought, that is what the policy is for, why are the members of the City Council not going to stop receiving their salaries for not doing this work or will they stop receiving their salaries if they stop working on the solution to the urban planning of Arboleas? ?

As you will understand, asking the neighbors if they want to legalize their house in its entirety or not is a trap for those affected since, if they vote no, they will never be able to claim for the real value of their houses and they would be agreeing to be scammed. If they vote yes, it will always be the responsibility of the city council to give legality to their houses even if, as in this case, the city council does not take any action.

I would never vote because my home was illegal, I repeat, I would be claiming to have a home of lower value.

Good night.

It should be up to the residents how to proceed, not be imposed on them.

Their homes are currently on non consolidated urban land, and they are legal due to antiquity after 6 years.

Since it's clear that it's the owners who will have to pay to make the land consolidated it should be their choice, to balance the doubtful benefits against the cost.
It shouldn't be imposed on them by politicians.

Regarding the issue with Promar.

I have very limited knowledge of their affairs, but it's a mess.
They are not trading and owe money to the Hacienda and others.

They have land in Los Torres, los carrascos and El Rincon, all subject to the embargo.

In Los carrascos and El Rincon the clients have removed themselves from the embargo with afos, leaving the embargo on the remainder of the fincas.

This is the planning process for the residents of Los Torres.
But the process is frozen since Promar have had their registration certificate suspended because they had not submitted tax returns for some years.

I see no way the embargo will be removed, thus blocking approval of parcelisation projects.

The residents of Los Torres need Promar to sign to allow them to segregate themselves from the condominium they entered in 2008.

Will they be able to get their certification returned while owing so much?
I don't know, or what the options will be for the residents.

This is for the lawyers.

I see no way the embargo will be removed, thus blocking approval of parcelisation projects.


So finally Roger we get there .....it was never going to be behind anybody buy august  and it is not a village political issue concerning any current party .....

its a company and mercantile law & tax & Administration  issue 


well done Rog ,you got there in the end ....... :blank:

Thank you, JuanC, for your detailed reply.

You almost make it sound as if the residents' voting option was proposed and initiated ["out of the blue"] by the PP.... I am fairly sure that it was not.

Conversations which I had with Pepa and with Antonio Martinez, indicate that the PP/UCIN coalition was originally hoping and planning to continue working on Innovation 14.

However, at the Los Carrascos meeting, it seemed thst a fair number of residents were unhappy with the prospect of having to pay for something whose completion date was unknown... < That was when the PP realised that it would be better to listen before acting.

[As an 'outsider' on this issue, I'm quite happy to be corrected if any of this^ is wrong].

the problem is David  quite a few owners have had there houses for 20 years plus,probably aged late  70,s to mid 80,s manged on pensions that have not kept up with inflation and the brexit hit collapse in the £ values since 2016 and just do not have the spare capital to fund innovation 14 updates ....or the energy .

I think people may have been disappointed by the lies they told in the electoral campaign where legalization papers were promised for all homes at 0 cost for the victims and, in the end, they have an invalid survey about whether they want an illegal house, 10 months after the elections. What does this city council work on in terms of urban planning? In short, this situation must be frustrating for the victims and, with politics, everything has solutions, staying still does not solve anything.

And as I say, just as Mike and Roger debated in this forum when they were councilors of the government team, I think that the current members of the government team can do it too or are they blocked from talking to their neighbors?

Quote from: DLMcN on April 16, 2024, 10:50:39 AMThank you, JuanC, for your detailed reply.

You almost make it sound as if the residents' voting option was proposed and initiated ["out of the blue"] by the PP.... I am fairly sure that it was not.

Conversations which I had with Pepa and with Antonio Martinez, indicate that the PP/UCIN coalition was originally hoping and planning to continue working on Innovation 14.

However, at the Los Carrascos meeting, it seemed thst a fair number of residents were unhappy with the prospect of having to pay for something whose completion date was unknown... < That was when the PP realised that it would be better to listen before acting.

[As an 'outsider' on this issue, I'm quite happy to be corrected if any of this^ is wrong].

Most people already have legal ownership papers using an afo.
And the houses are legal due to antiquity.

For those who haven't got afos they will be issued with the correct architect project.

What people object to is having to pay the taxes which should be charged to the builder.
And they object to being forced to pay for something they don't need, just because a politician says they have to.

That's why the PP at the carrascos and Los Torres meetings accepted that the residents should have the democratic decision.

Obviously you would not accept the democratic decision of the residents.
So that is now clear.
A clear political divide.

The problem with the parcelisation projects is that the cost is only known after the project is complete.
So the residents are faced with a blank cheque.
It's also impossible to know how long the process will take
Los Requenas started in 2018 when the residents paid 600 euros as an initial payment. And they still don't know if or when it will be approved, especially after the previous Mayor wasted 18 months by submitting a project with serious errors.

I see no evidence from people who have sold with afos that they have had to accept a lower offer.
The housing market in Arboleas is far too complex to be able to make any conclusion on that.

So the residents would face years of uncertainty, difficult to sell while this is happening, not knowing what the final bill will be,
ALL FOR NOTHING.

5 questions that can clarify all the neighbors' doubts:

- Why is the current government attacking the neighbors and not the developers?

- Why do you suppose that the costs that neighbors must pay in legalization are immutable? The city council can help like we did.

- A client who requested a job from me was surprised to have been tricked into obtaining an AFO by telling him that his land was classified as urban. He wanted to build a small storage room on his plot but, being an AFO, it was prohibited as it was a document that recognizes the illegality of a property. If I were in the ARI I would not have had problems in this regard. What solution does that neighbor have to build up to the 30% occupation of the plot that is allowed for houses with ARIs? I understand that anyone who wants to sell quickly gets an AFO, but answer that question if possible.

- Why does a CHIEF of the company that left embargoes in LOS TORRES, LOS CARRASCOS, EL RINCÓN, as you say, act as a MEMBER OF THE PP in the municipal elections and is a local militant of the PP party? He was one of the sponsors of the PP project. When they look for the promoter to pay, they can't find him, but if it is to 'help' in the electoral campaign, he is there. Can I clarify more, this person, who is a member of the PP of Arboleas, allegedly bought a rustic land in LOS TORRES from a relative of a member of the electoral list of the current PP to build illegal houses, do you know what houses they are? Yes, those of the ARI of Los Torres. Who explains why the promoter's party says that it cannot find the promoter?

- Why do members of the government team refuse to debate in this group?

Q1
You obviously do not understand the law.
The legalisation tax is on the property.
That is clear from the parcelisation project for Los Requenas.
So we all know that the builder won't pay, and after 4 years under Spanish law they can't be given to tax bill.

The town hall can't pay itself.
So the debt is on the property.
Check that with any lawyer.

Quote from: Roger on April 16, 2024, 16:00:59 PMQ1
You obviously do not understand the law.
The legalisation tax is on the property.
That is clear from the parcelisation project for Los Requenas.
So we all know that the builder won't pay, and after 4 years under Spanish law they can't be given to tax bill.

The town hall can't pay itself.
So the debt is on the property.
Check that with any lawyer.

Review your notes, in Los Requenas the promoters have paid. Or go back to studying. Continue with the other questions.

Q2
How did you help?
Los Requenas is the only project and the only reason that the residents have not had to pay is that the land is still owned by the builder.
If people have an afo they own the land so they will have to pay.
Your father confirmed this at a meeting with me in 2018.

That's a decision the residents have to make, not being dictated to by you.
They have to decide the pros and cons.

By the way the land IS URBAN under innovation 14.

Quote from: Roger on April 16, 2024, 16:07:09 PMQ2
How did you help?
Los Requenas is the only project and the only reason that the residents have not had to pay is that the land is still owned by the builder.
If people have an afo they own the land so they will have to pay.
Your father confirmed this at a meeting with me in 2018.

With all the developments that the city council did in the ARI areas, those costs had to be paid by the neighbors, as you say. By doing these jobs, the city council saved the neighbors that money.

C/Zoraida was the last street that was made to save the residents of the ARI of La Perla, a total of 300 thousand euros were saved for these neighbors, they can divide it among the houses that are part of the ARI of Perla and that way they will know the savings that each home had due to this last work.

In Los Torres they can make the bill with the lighting and the green area, almost 100 thousand euros between 30 houses. We save more than 3 thousand euros for each neighbor and so on, in all the neighborhoods.

See if the costs of the ARIs can be reduced when the City Council works and collaborates with the neighbors.

Quote from: Roger on April 16, 2024, 16:11:29 PMThat's a decision the residents have to make, not being dictated to by you.
They have to decide the pros and cons.

By the way the land IS URBAN under innovation 14.

Unconsolidated urban, a form that the new Andalusian land law doesnt recognize.

Regarding the company who has an embargo.
This is Promar.
I have nothing to do with Promar.
But as far as I know there are 3 shareholders of the company.

Cristobal Berbel, who set up the company.
He had been deputy mayor under your father in an earlier PSOE administration.

The other shareholders are, to my understanding, Antonio the former local police officer, and Faustino who has never indicated any political involvement. He in theory runs the company.
In theory because there is little indication that anyone runs it!

So where is the PP link to Promar?

In Los Torres you didn't put in the street lights.
The residents did paid for from the escrow account.
I know because I was one of the co signatories who signed over the money to the company.

But you also know that there is a lot of unfinished infrastructure.
For example in Los Requenas.
Why didn't you complete this before signing off the parcelisation project?

Cristóbal Berbel was a councilor from 1983 to 1987 only and nothing more. A little far from the housing problem. Another member participated as a PP member in the elections. Can you say which member of the PP electoral lists is related to the sale of the rural land where the ARI houses in Los Torres are located and whether he was a councilor at the time of the sale?

Now I will explain something about urban planning so that you know a little more: The urbanization project is done after the subdivision.

Whenever you want we can discuss these matters, we will solve the problem if we return to the City Council on some occasion, we have always had a solution. The current government team should continue enjoying its parties while promising the neighbors not to do anything. There are 4 years to adapt the Arboleas urban plan to the LISTA (Andalusian Land Law approved by the PP). This law does not recognize unconsolidated Urban land, let's see how our super government team solves it, with another party perhaps? We are still waiting for them in the forum.

Apologies for my ignorance but would the Cristobal Berbel mentioned be one of  the Directors of Promar/Promar Welcome Homes, or is that someone else entirely.

Quote from: Roger on April 15, 2024, 14:20:42 PMPeople don't care about who said what 20 years ago.

But remember a councilor from 37 years ago (before the ilegal houses problem) is important if he had a relation with Cristobal in that time. Curiosly, you has never remembered his relation with Angel García and the ilegal houses in Los Torres, especially in the campaign election.

To Remember the past is important when you see how the victims vote and give the power to the same corrupt people who created their ilegal house's problems. Nobody want live again that history.

So Roger what conclusion have you reached with all the input given to you on this thread  to help you understand it all a bit more  . ?


"The new PP administration has officially declared that they will not be charging the builders the urbanization costs of the innovation 14 houses, but will be requiring the residents to pay.

This is in direct contradiction to the election promise.
It seems that they are intent to lose the next election."

The British pensioners who were sold illegal houses have been waiting 20 years for this to end so that they can get on with what remains of their lives, free of stress.

Instead they are now pawns in the political game.
Clearly the current opposition politicians have no compassion.
All they want to do is drag this whole farce out for many more years.

In 2017 they were told that their land is now Urban, but were then told that they would have to wait for further urbanization projects.

SIX YEARS have passed and they are still waiting.

Fortunately there was a lifeline, the AFO, which allowed them to get escrituras for their homes.
Most have done so.

But what do we now have.
The opposition councillors are saying that if they get elected in 3 years they will start the whole urbanization process all over again.
That will mean years and years of uncertainty, a cloud over their homes making it difficult to sell, and unknown costs to follow.

Clearly they don't care that all this is causing so much stress to the innocent home owners.

In 3 years time it looks like an interesting political battle for the 500 plus British votes which will decide the result.

well i will give you my over view Roger after talking to people.

some Brits are quite happy as they are with little or no paperwork ,because they cannot afford the costs including the AFO  and cannot be doing with it all in there late 70,s and early 80,s

some are even pxssed off because they may now have to find infrastructure money and dont see why they should have to .....just because people want innovation 14...ie they were happy as they were.

a lot of people are un effected by any of it, and think the new council team are doing a great job with the events/fiestas  ect and the improvement  work around the village

i think what may happen ,in 3 years time is we may get 2 or 3 non spanish candidates putting them selfs forward, just one non PP/PSOE independent could hold the balance of power in the council chamber and we do have some very fluent educated people here capable of been a Councillor as we have had in the past with your good self,Mike and Danny and Rodney who gave it a go as well ,plus in other areas in the past ,we have had example Maura , who is very switched on ,so all in all it could be very interesting .

anyway the biggest problem as I  see it with my limited knowledge, is  the embargoes and land ownership  and this is a not a political matter its a Spanish State Administration Matter and it is the biggest hurdle that folks face thats effected by it , in my view along with the od re mortgaged land bank de fault ...../...repro.

I agree with some of what Tetley says.
It is certainly true that some people are content without any legal paperwork, mainly, as has been said, they will struggle to find around 5k to get the ownership with an AFO, when you include legal fees and registration tax.

But the issue of embargos is not a problem for people who use an AFO.
This is because when they segregate their plot the embargo does not follow them but stays on the remainder of the finca, provide there is some land remaining in the finca (which of course would include the land of people who have not segregated with an AFO!).

As for the legalisation process, from what people tell me they want the whole think dropped.
They have their escritura and that is sufficient.
They don't want any more hassle and uncertainty.

How is the new administration doing so far?
In my opinion quite well.

They are listening to the people about the urbanization projects.

They sorted out the Los Requenas project, despite misinformation and years of delay from their predecessors.
The residents now have to wait on the Land Registry, which is a law unto itself.

They have cleaned up much of the unkempt land.

There has been a marked increase in cultural and recreational activity.

It is refreshing to see that Arboleas is working with its neighbours in Zurgena because together is always better.


The result of the next election will be determined by the British vote.
I was involved a year ago to get a change.
It was amazing how strong that feeling was amongst the British.
But this only had a marginal effect on election day because only around one third of people at meetings had re registered to vote, either out of ignorance that they had to do so, or because (as many said)
"we didn't register because we decided we were not going to vote again for the present lot and we didn't know there would be a viable alternative until it was too late."

And the PSOE opposition is determined to rehash old news.
My experience is that this is a total turn off for the British.
They hate muck spreading.

But the Mayor and his son (juancris) and palminspain clearly do not get that.


Interesting times.

Roger - What would actually happen if a house-owner was unable [or refused] to pay in an area where Innovation 14 was being processed?

Does the Town Hall [or some other authority?] then have the power to impose a debt or a sanction against that particular property? If so, would it carry that 'liability' straightaway, or only after Innovation 14 had been fully completed there?

Did anything like that take place in Las Requeñas, do you know?

and of coarse Roger ,certainly to my amazement post brexit ,

we still have wealthy Brits coming over to Arboleas in numbers entitled to a vote after 3 years of full residency

 and the local housing market is busy

for anything 99 to 199 grand ie if house papers are right and the price is right ,its selling 

and down the coast the market is very very busy for house buying and selling .

From the PSOE we leave this debate against a wall. Anyone who needs help we are here. For the rest, we are not responsible for this year of government, let's say that if in 2019/23 we carried out 86 works, counting as one C/Zoraida (€350,000), another the access to Los Carrascos (€130,000) and another the Los Llanos Rotunda (€180,000), we only ask that they match us (they should already have 20 works) and those who have to account for their management in this forum are now others. We settled for them doing what we requested and they granted us. For example, now it is the bike lane in the neighborhoods of the stream with its pedestrian walkways on the Los Carrascos/Los Garcías and El Chopo/Los Requenas bridges. In addition to the granting of an electric bus that will improve the lives of our neighbors to go to the doctor or go shopping with regular departures. We got that subsidy before we left, we can show it and it must be done now. It will start soon, we will only ensure that it is done correctly and soon we will enjoy that necessary municipal transportation such as the bus, which will also be electric. Congratulations and good afternoon.

Quote from: Roger on April 09, 2024, 12:34:10 PMThe new PP administration has officially declared that they will not be charging the builders the urbanization costs of the innovation 14 houses, but will be requiring the residents to pay.

This is in direct contradiction to the election promise.
It seems that they are intent to lose the next election.

Good evening everyone and with this administration, as Roger says, good luck!

I hope you have done your sums because I think that with my experience of the bus industry you have more chance of day trips to the moon than making that pay.

Neighbor, a City Council is not a company that is dedicated to making money, public services are expensive and a bus that is subsidized at approximately 70% is a great opportunity to solve problems for neighbors who have mobility problems. Street lighting costs more than bus service and is another public service. Councilors who offer not to work to solve the problems cost more.

Quote from: Malcolm on April 17, 2024, 19:53:19 PMI hope you have done your sums because I think that with my experience of the bus industry you have more chance of day trips to the moon than making that pay.

70% of how much. People scream and shout for buses in the country villages and if they are provided rarely use them. With all the villages we have you want more than one bus and then two drivers for each bus to be there when it's wanted. Maintenance, depreciation etc. etc. Good luck, you'll need it

Almost 70 thousand euros for a minibus and good luck to you, you will probably need it more than us.

Quote from: Malcolm on April 17, 2024, 20:21:14 PM70% of how much. People scream and shout for buses in the country villages and if they are provided rarely use them. With all the villages we have you want more than one bus and then two drivers for each bus to be there when it's wanted. Maintenance, depreciation etc. etc. Good luck, you'll need it

70% of how much. People scream and shout for buses in the country villages and if they are provided rarely use them. With all the villages we have you want more than one bus and then two drivers for each bus to be there when it's wanted. Maintenance, depreciation etc. etc. Good luck, you'll need it

In answer to the recent question..
The urbanization tax as a result of the parcelisation projects is a debt on the land, and therefore the owner of the land.
If you have an afo then you are the land owner.
If you wait for the parcelisation project it could be that the builder is the land owner. However in practice the debt will go on the land which will then be the house owner.

The debt is on the land, irresponsible who was the promoter.

The previous Mayor certainly did a lot of works in the town.

However the most frequent complaint from people is that the town was a permanent building site.
So much work started and more started before the first project was finished.

And I invite people to take a drive to the entrance to Los Higuerales.
The huge white elephant, complete with mock Roman pillar is an example of wasted public money.

Good Morning citizens   :afro: