Arboleas Now website

[ForumAdmin]

Due to the large number of complaints about some of the postings and that the thread has seen its sell-by date. The thread is now closed.

[andie]

We have tried ignoring him, but he is still getting worse.  

What exactly is a troll, besides being an annoying and destructive pest?

Sorry, not computer talk literate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)  S  :tiphat:

[carsons1947]

We have tried ignoring him, but he is still getting worse.  

What exactly is a troll, besides being an annoying and destructive pest?

Sorry, not computer talk literate.

[andie]

nice to see the inteligent folks turning out again   :tiphat:  S

[lenox]

I generally don't read him - his carefully crafted content is purposefully hard to understand, artful and bigoted (no offence!)

[andie]

any news on answering question 2 ?  :tiphat:  S

[carsons1947]

Saffi
It is pointless, between us we have tried every approach there is.  

He either cannot or will not use logic, although he uses it on other threads.

It is neither kind to him, or to other members, to allow this to continue

It is becoming more malicious and very likely libellous.

Also, those that encourage it and supply the information, they should be ashamed of themselves.

Enough is enough!

[iuvlambos]

Steve, will you not consider backing off? From what I have seen Roger has answered your questions but you seem to be ignoring the replies.  Your messages are hard to read. If you used Firefox and the spellchecker that comes with it perhaps we would all read your posts properly.

I am sure that I am not alone in getting totally fed up with your posts. I am amazaed that the moderators let you get away with it.  You rant and rave at Roger then openly admit that you will only go to the town hall when it suits you.  A case of sod everyone else. Unless of course they are members of the AUAN, then they are OK in your book because they have an expensive lawyer working for them, but no other qualified individuals as you keep on instisting on for the help desk.

[Saffi]

Steve - you really do not deserve any help as you are so unnecessarily rude to Roger, if you have no respect for the way he operates in trying to help local residents then leave him alone to get on with something useful instead of having to reply to yet more of your public haranguing of him on here. Your last post is nothing short of rude, simple plain rudeness.  I have seen Roger´s answers to your questions many times, I can read them, do you?  

[andie]

"What language do you think I speak when I talk to the mayor, the architect, the secretary in the Town Hall."

after some of the statments on here over the last 10 months im honestly not sure   :tiphat:


if people follow my logic ,thay wont be taken in by a someone running around Arboleas" hawking "  votes or falling for the smoke & mirrows campaigne either .

as for the meeting,il do what i always do,if i need somthing il pop in the town hall and ask the Mayor,the Judge,the girls,the secatery or the architect .

S   :tiphat:

ps no offence intended   :wave

[andie]

welcome back Roger  :tiphat:

any news on answering question 2

thanks

Steve   :tiphat:

[Roger]

As usual Steve, you totally misunderstand the situation in Arboleas, and the function of a Council.
What language do you think I speak when I talk to the mayor, the architect, the secretary in the Town Hall.
If you had bothered to attend the Public Meeting for your area, you would have seen the Mayor attempting to answer questions, with the aid of a qualified interpreter, and me having to explain the issues to him, because he did not seem to understand the problems facing his constituents.
If you follow your logic, we are all doomed to live here as second class citizens, with no representatives on the Council.
Yes we need an experienced Spanish Mayor.
We also need elected representatives, representing ALL the community of Arboleas.
And those Councillors will ensure that we appoint qualified and experienced professionals to sort out the urban mess we will inherit.
And those Councillors, British and Spanish, will ensure that all the community is properly informed and consulted on Council policy at every stage.
AND that we get a regular financial statement, so that we can all see how OUR money is being spent.

[carsons1947]

Andie
Quote "Attempts made by our politicals and friends to undermine the anti demo organisation for political self gain, personally I found them disloyal and their actions sickening."

People are offering to give up years of their retirement to help others. They don't want to work 24/7 at an un paid job. They want to sit by the pool and relax.   Political self gain - what malicious rubbish!
 

[andie]

sounds good Saffi,but you will be able to go to the moon on a weeks holiday ,befor that one happens,that really will be a cultral change .

all this housing lark all over spain,will only change through the big folks loosing money,ie the banks,when thay start crying a bit more,things will start to happen,thay certainly dont need any more folks posting the keys through the bank letter box or builders going nits,apparently it could even drag the banks down in the EU as well,ie the ones that are over commited.(probably rbs hbos  808  )

S   :tiphat:

[Saffi]

Andie - I totally disagree with you, what the Town Hall needs and the Almeria Regional Authority is someone professional who is qualified and experienced in planning law (not any old lawyer) AND computer literate and au fait with systems that allow accurate representations of property and land online and thus for records to match up - catastro with Registry etc........and it goes without saying that they need to be politically aware as well.  I could go on but this is way beyond the realms of fantasy, we need professionals not politicians, who can provide solutions to the politicians and then proper accountability thereafter. If the Town Hall does not monitor its patch properly then it is enshrined in new laws that state 100% unequivocally, that the Town Hall IS responsible and no one else.   It is the functionaries in the Town Halls who do not change, the political will has to make them more accountable but that is simply not fair or enforceable at the moment as there are so many incredible computer errors on legitimate properties.  

I have been waiting over 2 years for my property to revert to being my own as in the last catastro re-vamp Almeria gave it back to the original owner,  The Town Hall did nothing wrong and I and they have the paperwork to prove it......and I was far from alone, there were thousands of us mis-identified, properties put in the wrong place, properties allocated to owners of years gone by and not current owners and so on.......you would not believe how basic and obvious so many of the errors were but the property owners each had to report it to the Town Hall, fill in forms and the town Hall a re still chasing it up with Almeria years later.......

..

[carsons1947]

Digi
I know you had a raw deal and I do not wish to belittle your experiences. However, a lot of elderly live in real poverty and have no escape route or helpful family. The AUAN excludes the very people that need it most. 

You made your decision to join and that is your right. I prefer to help those that can't, or prefer not to join, also the well off and AUAN members that use the help desk.  That is my right.

We must agree to differ, as always. 

[andie]

Norman  :tiphat:
were constantly told by Roger that things have changed ? but have thay or has he mis understood ?

one of my family members is fluent ANDALUSE  ie educated here and the other one has works in an sp office for the past 6 years,and thay both have to listen extreamly hard to be 100 % thay have it right,and thay wont touch medical interpratation with a barge pole in case thay get it wrong.

without any disrepect to the  genuinly well meaning,i would think no more of voting for an unqualifed brit   than i would geting on a Ryan air flight with a london bus driver in the pilot seat ,even tho the bus driver has 25 years experience in the transport industry,and apart from that to be brutaly honest,after attempts made by our poltical,s & freinds  to undermine the anti demo organisations for self potical gain , personally i found them dis loyal and thair actions sickening.

if folks stand who are qualified in law & languges then this will form a good starting point, for local politics but im cetainly not going  vote to put an un qualified  senior uk citizens in the town hall whome have already proven thair naievety both on here and else where.

i have also made my concearns crystal clear localy over the weekend to,one or two movers shakers, my overveiw of the   situation is , a lot of folks are in a difficult situation at the mo which  needs handaling with great care,or it could turn into an even bigger disaster  than it is now and BS wont solve it
S   :tiphat:

[carsons1947]

Titch.     
Roger comes on here sometimes to chat and so do I. That is our right.  Of course Roger is better than me - he has had 30 yrs experience in handling dirty tricks.

I liberally scatter IMOs in my postings to be sure that everyone knows these are my private views. The official voice of the help desk is elsewhere as you well know.  On here is personal chat and I have as much right as anyone else to express my opinions.  

It is quite plain that there is a group, across the two forums, that is running a  campaign.  They all just happen to be AUAN supporters, know each other, tend to kick off at the same time, and reappear at the same time using the same misinformation?  If I may use your expression - 'get real'.  

This forum had a lovely few weeks of peace after the departure of some other of the group members and so did the help desk.  So we got some nice comments. Guess what happened in response? This thread.  

IMO the start of this thread was an aggressive attempt to stir up trouble, complete with self confessed personal comments that had to be edited, and mostly based on misinformation as well -  stuff over a year old!
You only have to read the two forums to see the process going on.

Can we now return to the peace, and the two groups ignoring each other, that you personally were asking for not so long since?  

[Rod]

Ditto Digi, well put. Less than 1 Euro per week after the joing fee of 25 Euros is paid. This year you were allowed to pay in two instalments, save up, don´t have one coffee out per week and it´s paid for.

[digifidd]

Carsons, I must take issue with you over a point made earlier.

  It is so wrong to withold information from desperate people simply because they have a lower income.

The AUAN is not expensive to join, in the scheme of things.  When we joined, we had just returned to the UK with our two children, with virtually no money (small amount of savings), no jobs, nowhere to live (thanks Mum!) and having had to leave our house and possessions behind and yet we found the money (after much discussion with this forum on the matter and amongst ourselves) to join.  Our income was at nil - we are not pensioners.  Combined with this, we were desperately unhappy at our dream having turned into a nightmare and felt that we had been betrayed on various levels by Spanish and Brits alike - a very gloomy place indeed.

But as most things in life - positive actions and choices usually move life forward.  Plus it is about individual priorities.  Some prefer to spend money on things that others consider non essentials but to others they are deemed to be needed.  That is just people.

We felt that  as we were no longer able to stay in Spain, we considered that it was better to join an organisation that has it's finger on the pulse and can react quicker to local issues than us who were now in the UK.  Saying that, we probably would have joined if we had stayed in Spain too.  It was also felt that by joining, we would be helping to find out the information that we had been denied whilst in Spain (from lawyers, town hall and our developer) and by sharing the cost of gathering this independent information in order to make informed future decisions.

I still believe that it has been and is money well spent, given that we haven't got the time or resources to fight this alone and there is no point relying on our neighbours to support us against our developer as they pinned their colours very firmly to the mast when they stuck their fingers in their ears and went la la la when we found out that we had all been fleeced by our "lovely, welcoming", two faced, greedy Spanish neighbours.

I hope that they are still happy in their idyll.

At least, this way I am doing something with like minded people who aren't afraid to face the reality of the situation. I don't see the problem really.  If you can't afford to fight injustice on your own or need reassurance that you are not alone in this mess, join an organisation for a modicum of the cost, have a voice (if you have the time and energy to get more deeply involved, do so) and get the best independent information that the combined resources can buy.  This is because, those in authoritiy who you should be able to rely on to give you reliable and trustworthy information do not appear to be willing or able to do so.

Unfortunately, in my experieince the Spanish have a very disarming way of being so nice to your face and then doing the completely opposite behind your back and thinking nothing of such an obvious duplicity.

You are of course entitled to your opinion Carsons, but fundamentally,  I just can't agree with you.

[Titch]

Carsons

You are totally WRONG when you say that Uncle Bob and Danno are organising a mis-information campaign.  Roger is now shedding more light on the situation in Arboleas rather than the 'Everything's alright' that the Mayor told him before and he is to be commended.  

Don't spoil this thread.


Titch







Titch

[Saffi]

I understand from David Searl, the author, that the new edition of You and the Law in Spain, out in June, will have a lot more information about urbanising infra structure, and planning rules.  Equally you can read the planning laws as Carsons mentions but they will make your head spin.

This is all long enshrined in law and one issue that no one has mentioned on here is that many spanish people all over Spain have already paid out for these kind of costs themselves.  If the Town Hall offers an amnesty to a predominantly immigrant group how will the indigent spanish feel when the law was bent/broken for the foreigners and not for spanish nationals?  The spanish attitude is that town halls have always been inefficient/inept and it is up to you, the individual, to know the real score and the town hall need spanish votes.......... 

[NormanM]

Andie, the point I was trying to make (obviously unsuccessfully) is that you seem to have a deep belief about the 'silliness' of any British person (NOT English, please, we get enough of that type of arrogance) who wants to try to get involved and get some form of political representation for the majority of the population of the municipality.

If I am correct in my view, I think your belief is unfounded.

Familarity with the Spanish language would, of course be essential, but do you think there are no Brits around who have that capability?

Here we have a situation in which the majority of the population is effectively disenfranchised at a local level.  Just how can that continue to be acceptable?

[John n Julie]

At Last,
Detente, a warming, nuclear stand down, possibly a parlais! now I am feeling better about this thread.
Opinions we are all entitled to! views we are allowed to express.But it is nice without the vitriolic bitterness in some of the replies. and due respect of  another persons perceptions as he or she sees it! now that is a forum and it's nice to see.
Thank you.
Regards
John

[carsons1947]

Yet more misinformation campaigning from that little group.   Roger and I agree on that one I see!

1) I moved on because the AUAN's attitude to the help desk made it impossible for me to stay.  I was forced to choose, so I selected the better of the two IMO. 

2)There is no 'official line' on the help desk. One of the very nice things about working there is that we are a team of volunteers, holding all sorts of different views, that work together to help everyone that comes.  Roger and I disagree on several things without any problem. Why on earth should we want to agree on everything? 

It is very unlike the AUAN.  That was like living in a straightjacket!  Harangued every month about not giving any information away.  It is so wrong to withold information from desperate people simply because they have a lower income.

[unclebob]

Danno
I agree. I'm beginning to get a nice warm feeling. Either that or I've wet my pants.
Damn the bags leaking again.

[andie]

yes thairs certainly a few folks on local manavours, on the poltical front now,certainly a lot of confusing signals being SENT out  at the mo   ;)  polish yer mirrows folks,the smoke is starting to clear !   :wave  S

[Danno]

Ha ha......you know me better than to think I will worry about other's approval, Carsons, come on!!   :whistle:

Seems like you're out of step with Roger though......time for you to move on, again?  :clap:

Danno

[carsons1947]

I think I need a hot, sweet cup of tea.   :o

Be careful or you will find yourself getting nasty emails from the committee as well.  The official line is disapproval, disobey at your peril!!!

[Danno]

Roger, you will probably shudder to read this.......

.....but I am beginning to 'warm to you'!!

Danno

[andie]

thank you Roger,so to sumarize the punter pays ,if thay dont have a LEGAL  hab cert (confermation of the worst kept secrate in Almanzora ! )

how abought my question 2

what abought the houses that canot be urbanised  in Arboleas  ,what will thair fate be ?

thanks

S   :tiphat:

[Roger]

I am not going to try to comment on all that.

but on the subject of infrastructure costs.
You cannot put a general cost, it depends on the situation.
eg. One house access road tarmac, paid to Arboleas Council 3k
      11 houses tarmac road, insisted by Arboleas Council 16K.

Here is the problem, and the injustice.
If you do not have a tarmac road, but have been issued a Cert of First occupation (illegally) by the Council, then Arboleas Mayor says he may do it some time, maybe.
If you do not have a tarmac road, either because the Council did not do its job or because they told the builder they did not need to, and if you do not have a Cert of First Occupation, then you have to cough up.
This is contrary to a clear undertaking given to me at a formal meeting with the Mayor, on no less than 3 occasions.
If a politician breaks a promise, whatever you think of him personally, that is not acceptable.
And you cannot trust any other promises he may make in the future.

And in reply to another point, respect has to be earned, continuously.

[carsons1947]

Never suspend your critical faculties has been my way for many years.  I like to get in there and look at the evidence for myself. 

I wonder if Andie will call you naive now?

[Rod]

You pays your money and you takes your choice, I know where and who I trust.

[carsons1947]

Rod and Andie

More misinformation campaigning I think.

Bob had been doing a bit of Brit councillor bashing.  If I may quote:

'I'm not sure, but I think you will find that Dionysus come from a land where there is a Brit Councillor.......The future?  One hopes not.'