Arboleas Now website

[atnuj]

atnuj   :tiphat:
what year please did your urbanisation prosses take place ?

from 2004 to 2007

[discipleofonan]

Anyone fancy a pint ?

[andie]

 Lenox your correct   :o

equally you dont need to live in a bungalow to have nothing up stairs   ;)  :wave   :-*  S

[lenox]

There's always a slight suggestion that the politicians, good ones and bad ones alike, all want the same thing - for these illegal houses to continue illegal. They may be doing lots, something or even perhaps nothing about fixing the problem, but it doesn't seem very likely somehow that they rejoice in this situation.
They may be honest, useless, crooks or saints, but they are not gods. They were put there by people whio voted for them. You could vote for them, for someone else, or even stand for office (well, not Andie, obviously). You don't have to watch 'A Man Named Horse' to be an injun.

[Saffi]

<sup>Why shouldn't Andie keep asking the same question,

The plain fact is nobody can answer these questions,because no one knows whats going on,most of the speak from poloticians is just good old retoric</sup>

You answered your own question!!

[tomtom]

Why shouldn't Andie keep asking the same question,have you all given up asking when your houses will be legalised,of course not.The plain fact is nobody can answer these questions,because no one knows whats going on,most of the speak from poloticians is just good old retoric.As for the AUAN I still do not know what they have achieved,there has been alot of talk,alot of expensive solicitors involved,but WHAT has actually been sorted,has anyone had an illegal house on rustic land,legalised,has any rustic land been officially recorded as urban and the properties on it legalised.Lets face it,if this site is still going in 10 years time,the same topics about housing will still be coming up.I still do not understand why those affected are not taking direct legal action against the Developers,town halls,solicitors,architects etc.Time is running out.UP THE REVOLUTION

[Saffi]

I am just being a realist, that is all and giving the best advice I can based on 11 years of experience in Andalucia including being ripped off myself (but not in the same way as you) and thus experience of the spanish legal system.  OK your questions

On the question of site inspections, by officials from the town hall. You said that they would inspect the site prior to construction taking place and then at completion.
That being the case, if such an inspection took place on completion, then the town hall could not claim that it was unaware that there was no infrastructure in place so, how could the town hall claim it was innocent of any negligence?

The end of build site inspection is the one for the licence of first occupation - how many of you have that?  No licence = no inspection = no proof of liability or negligence.  Also no build licence = no liability.  Stop orders can easily be manufactured or suddenly appear and for all many of you know may even have been given to builders working on your properties but they ignored them.  It is not that I disagree with you it is that there is no concrete proof it was the town hall who was negligent

My final point is about you personally.
You claim you have had some sort of experience with other urbanisations, where?
Several different locations but I prefer not to say where, Atnuj´s description of what happened fits the procedures EVERY single adviser gave and your choice is comply or lose land, you can then potentially lose so much land that your house becomes illegal by virtue of being too large for the plot it is built upon, so if they do not get you one way they will get you another, also Atnuj´s builder had allowed the space for communal and green ares, I doubt this is the case around Arboleas, it is a fixed percentage according to law (not politics), who would sacrifice their house and land for a communal area, how much compensation for that would the rest of you pay to that householder etc?
You also claim you have consulted legal experts, can you say who they were?
Various different solicitors including one in Almeria, Town Hall representatives, spanish who have been through it (they know how to work it by horse trading effectively), EU legislation, and legal articles and the book by David Searl who writes You and the Law in Spain

[Saffi]

OK maybe I ws not quite clear enough, I am not advocating that anyone spends any money now but simply get yourselves legally constituted so you are ready when the time comes.....there is an established legal procedure for urbanisation infra-structure so it is there written in law, not invented by any political pàrty, but there in existing law.  Therefore any political party has no option but to abide by it - the EU wants all clusters of houses everywhere in Europe to have this infra-structure and the law came from them, they pressurise the national governments and so it filters down.  Apart from this there are the spanish planning rules and fiasco but these also state that clusters of homes should be an urbanisation, (rural re-formed cortijos on rustic land are the only legal properties in Andalucia if they have all the reform licences etc).  So urban infra-structure is not an option if you are to be made legal.  The urbanising procedures also clearly state that if all the property owners, or at the very least the significant majority on a particular urbanisation want to band together and obtain their own quotes and decide to use their own builders then the Town Hall HAS to let them (so long as they are legal contractors and so long as they comply with the urbanising project) - it cannot refuse this.  You can get a quote from the Town Hall as well.  Also the Town Hall HAS to give you a hearing as a group and liaise with you and they have to do this via registered letter or letters hand delivered by the police and signed for by you.  So if you want to be empowered then use the powers you already have - to form a legally constituted community group of owners, find out what relevant resources you have between you (not just you but your relatives and friends as well),  and be in charge of the process.  You will then be in charge of the contract for works and not the Town Hall, you will be in charge of the money and who gets paid etc etc..........if and when you are forced to do this to legitimize your homes.

Atnuj has already proved to us that this procedure can work and as you all know that urban infra structure is inevitable, whoever pays for it then be ready and prepared (it can take a year to get yourselves properly constituted under the law) so tat you can get the best deal.  The town halls want this problem to be solved as well but the how is the issue as they have wider concerns to consider as well, irrespective of party politics.

[Danno]

Saffi

I invariably think your posts are pretty much on the ball, but today I disagree with you.  The problems are indeed administrative and legal....and who makes the laws?  The Politicians.  Which party was in administration in the Junta and ignored (or condoned) all the illegal building which has got us into this mess? The PSOE. Who promised to sort out the mess in Albox if they were elected, 3 years ago?  The PSOE!  Who seems to be fudging things unsuccessfully in Arboleas? The PSOE.  Who could change the law/declare some sort of Amnesty? The PSOE.  Who told the AUAN 20 months ago that the 'survey' of all properties in the Valley would be the first step to making us all legal - Caparros (Bulldozer Bill) - PSOE.

.....and which Party has the answer to this problem?  I haven't the faintest idea, but not the PSOE (unless this new blood in the reshuffle brings some change). 

Until there is Political will to resolve the problem across Andalucia, it will not be resolved.  In the meantime, we watch the area slowly die, along with the aging expat population.

.....and I love Andie's posts!! (I think the Word spellchecker would blow a fuse!)

Blueboy - Not many people talk about it, but there are court cases going on all the time.  Our case is at least 3 years in court, and still hasn't come to trial.  One day you may read about all these cases suddenly reaching trial, but don't hold your breath.  Seprona are also chasing the guilty b******s, but the courts are swamped!

Danno

[Titch]

I agree with Dioysus that the figure of 4K cannot be taken as real for many people.  However frightening the cost of urbanisation seems, we must look at the real possibility of funding it ourselves or else abandoning our investment. For many there will be new projects to fund just to get paperwork and this seems to be a rip off both from the town halls and the architects who do the work. But by banding together,either in small urbanisations or a grouping of urbanisations we might be able to negociate better deals with service providers etc or maybe the town hall. We don't want to give the Mayor's cousin twice removed the job unless he will do a job at the right price, do we? It seems that one would need to hire someone expert (Spanish)to help with this.  We will need strength in numbers.

Personally, we are in a fairly bad position.  Our land is not segregated therefore in theory the builder is still responsible, but he will plead poverty. We have only pozo negros. Our road washes away  and ends up a foot deep at the bottom neighbours gateway.  We regularly have a pensioners road mending exercise, but as the years go by, there are fewer able to contribute, so only half gets done.  We do have electricricty and water to the gates but I'm sure the town hall will want it done again.  We all paid for a package so the builder has all the money including the VAT. He hasn't done a runner, But I personally believe he knows all the tricks of hiding his money.

The AUAN always advocate  getting the builders/developers, or the town halls, to pay because they were to blame by their actions or inactions. The AUAN continue to ask for a sensible solution.  You don't give up until the WAR is over. To sit and do nothing is not an option.
Roger, too, will work towards the people of Arboleas having to pay as low a price as possible for legalisation in whatever way he can.  One problem though, if the Town Hall pays, who is that?  The local Spanish and Brits who are paying their IBI - and then they won't be happy, either!

Albox seems to have spent the monies that could have been used on sensible things like sewerage works and decent roads, on tarting up the town with pink marble, a bridge to nowhere important, new railings on the green bridge and absolutely nothing which could help the ex-pats who live outside the town. (Probably from 'another budget' - the EU?) A new sewerage works would have been a good investment for the future.

Saffi's advice to get prepared should, IMO, be considered. I don't think anyone should get work done in advance because we have no idea what extra planning laws might be introduced in the future.

Titch

[Lynne]

That is my point. Why choose a forum that hardly anyone reads?  It simply does not make any sense, unless of course they are behind the forum then fair enough.

The numbers shown as on-line are in any 30 minutes on this forum.  On the purple forum it's only 10 minutes.  If the purple were to increase their limit to 30 minutes, then you would see an increased number of viewers.

[carsons1947]

Morning Saffi
Good posts.  It is indeed a minefield!

Could I just make an observation about the urbanisation idea?  

Over the years it has been looked at by experts and bodies on different levels. It never seems to get through to being recommended though. I imagine that there are problems.  

It might be an idea to ask around before putting too much work in.

[blueboy]

What I find most amazing is that after many of you have been turned over to the tune of millions by the builders and developers and governments (who accepted your taxes) for infrastructure you don't have,
now you seem to want to go for it again.
your money has been stolen once that should be enough, now you want to give another developer more money in the hope that he won't turn you over again, !when will they ever learn! comes to mind.
These people are still running free, why are they not denounced? they never went broke,they still have your money stashed away, go after them, your gang is bigger than theirs, dont roll over and invite them back to shaft you again.
Blueboy (who used to want to live there but dont any more) :tiphat:   

[Dionysus]

The points andie has made are valid, in respect of costs affected by inflation, the value of the pound against the euro and the dramatic decrease in the property values!

All this appears to have had no consideration whatsoever, when suggesting the way forward is to form community organisations and spread the cost of infrastructure amongst its members!
The solution being promoted, is almost like a "once size fits all" thing, which takes no account of the individual circumstances which affect those developments that do not have any, or have some infrastructure in place!

In no way should the figure of four thousand euros, be used as any sort of example, as the sort of costs that can be expected, as has been done, by some on this forum!

We are supposed to be fighting for justice and a solution, whereby those who are responsible pay the price for their actions, or lack of them.
And if this is the best you can offer, then the AUAN and bodies like that, might just as well pack up their tents and go back home!

And Saffi, a couple of points.

On the question of site inspections, by officials from the town hall. You said that they would inspect the site prior to construction taking place and then at completion.
That being the case, if such an inspection took place on completion, then the town hall could not claim that it was unaware that there was no infrastructure in place so, how could the town hall claim it was innocent of any negligence?

My final point is about you personally.
You claim you have had some sort of experience with other urbanisations, where?
You also claim you have consulted legal experts, can you say who they were?
Names, addresses, phone numbers, that kind of thing?
If you don't want to provide that information on open forum, you can p.m. me!

[andie]

Saffi
if yer dont like mi posts ,dont  read em ,its optional,same as politics    :tiphat:  S

[Saffi]

Steve I wish you would read replies properly, no one has said don´t ask questions but please just stop asking the same questions as we all know that Roger simply cannot, and nor could anyone in his place, answer them at the moment, and I for one am getting intensely irritated by your constant repeated nagging about the same question in very lazy and poorly written posts (whatever your dyslexia problem you can type in Word use the spell checker and punctuation functions then copy and paste on here).  Roger has always shared any info he has on here when he has it so why should he hold out now?  The decisions and actions to be taken are not party political ones but administrative and legal issues and it is a minefield to walk through in that sense. 

[andie]

Steve, I very much doubt Roger DOES know the answers as it is blatantly clear that they are still working on the issues you raise and trying to resolve them. How about supporting him and others working on your behalf instead of constantly bombarding him rather aggressively with the same old questions?

Saffi   :tiphat:
this is poltatics,he has put his self in the poltical arean by choice ,i will ask questions as and when i see fit , if folks carnt handle a few honest decent questions on here,what chance will thay have in a council chamber,in a foreign land .

im not asking him to strip & re assemble a jumbo jet,i have asked 2 questions on a subject he reguly advices us on, and  that he  assures us he is very competent to answer,in fact a feild he some what now seems to specalize in of late.

S   :tiphat:

[Saffi]

Steve - my guess is that all the properties with incomplete papers etc but where title is clear will become classified as "urbana no consolidada" which means that you are urban in a sense as in no longer rustic but that you are not fully urban until the infra structure has been done.  It is clear that in Atnuj´s case there was not a lof of infra structure in place whereas that is not the case for all of the Almanzora area.........

Thank you Atnuj, I am re-stating what you have said here as this IS the best way forward for everyone, I would imagine your team had a lot more combined professional expertise than any one Town Hall alone and to prove that it can be done, there is a lot of energy around but seeking justice is never going to work, you need to focus on solutions and get your organisations per urbanisation organised now as this takes time in itself - imagine the power you would have if every urbanisation, with a legally constituted committee, went to a meeting with the Town Hall when urbanisation infra structure comes up?  The emphasis in bold below is mine

The total cost was about €5 million, and several quotations were obtained before teh contract was let. Those costs were then divided up by house size, and as I said our share was €4 thousand - bigger properties were more, and apartments about half that. The whole project was driven by a strong legaly constituted community association, with a Belgian President and several spanish engineers and lawyers, who either lived there or had a 'weekend place' there,who negociated through a professional planner and lawyer with the various utility providers and authorities. One of the retired resident spanish engineers was part of the project management team. Twice yearly meetings were convened to which all owners were invited, but few attended.
It became neccessary to lean heavily on those member households who did not wish to pay through the courts, as they did not bother to turn up to vote in opposition at the appropriate time.
Several 'strapped for cash' pensioners were given help to access bank loans to stretch the costs over many years.

[Saffi]

Steve, I very much doubt Roger DOES know the answers as it is blatantly clear that they are still working on the issues you raise and trying to resolve them. How about supporting him and others working on your behalf instead of constantly bombarding him rather aggressively with the same old questions?

[andie]

atnuj   :tiphat:
what year please did your urbanisation prosses take place ?

the reason i ask,is because building works inflation & materials have more or less doubled over the past 7 years,example a bag of cement was 2.05 e now around the 4e mark.

plus pensions in real terms with inflation and the effects of the euro are a good 35 % min of the mark that thay were 5 years ago.

we have already been "advised on here" that folks wanting papers may now need new projects in the region of 7k,and its also worth a mention that some folks dont owne the land or the house legally,because thay havent completed,or the land was never owned in the first place.

plus a few years ago, property prices were rocketing up ,so it wasent really costing any money to urbanise ,ie because it was covered for on the added value to the building. now prices are rockerting  down so i would think very few would be willing to " re invest in up grades "

all very complicated ,i was once told locally it would take 15 years to sort ,im begining to think thay could be correct .

just a genral observation .


S   :tiphat:

[atnuj]

Atnuj, I find your post very interesting, can I ask how far away the infra structure was please - ie sewage etc?  It seems a very reasonable price to me.  

There are 800 homes in the community, and the infrastructure I referred to was within the community area.

Specificaly in terms of the connections outside the community, which is what I think you were getting at:-

1. The sewage line out of the community area existed. The community had to buy a new end of pipe pumping station. That sewage is pumped to the new Mancomunidad sewage treatment plant somewhere (I don't know where) which so far as I am aware takes sewage from Mojacar, Garrucha, Vera town and Vera Playa, Turre, Cuevas and the other places in the Levante Mancomunidad, treats it, and releases the treated water into the sea. So far as I know the costs of that outside the community were born by the Ayuntamientos out of the IBI local taxes. Although a small sewage treatment charge is added to our water bill, and based on the amount of water we use.
2. The storm drains were a new system, which discharges to the sea directly
3. The internal community electricity supply, cables and transformers, were paid by the community - Endesa paid for an upgraded feed. Owners paid for any upgrades within their own properties.
4. The internal potable water pipes were laid and paid for by the community, and Vera Ayuntamiento paid for the new connection to Codeur outside the community property. Owners paid for any upgrades within their own properties.
5. The irrigation water is sourced from a community owned well in Palomares, but we paid for new pipes within the communty area. Owners paid for any upgrades within their own properties.
6. I'm not sure who paid for the Telefonica infractructure - I think the deal was that the community paid for the ducts, and Telefonica paid to feed the lines through to boxes. Owners paid for any upgrades within their own properties.
7. The community paid the totality of the road restoration, tarmacing and street lights, up to the main Bouganvillas to Villaricos road.

The total cost was about €5 million, and several quotations were obtained before teh contract was let. Those costs were then divided up by house size, and as I said our share was €4 thousand - bigger properties were more, and apartments about half that. The whole project was driven by a strong legaly constituted community association, with a Belgian President and several spanish engineers and lawyers, who either lived there or had a 'weekend place' there,who negociated through a professional planner and lawyer with the various utility providers and authorities. One of the retired resident spanish engineers was part of the project management team. Twice yearly meetings were convened to which all owners were invited, but few attended.
It became neccessary to lean heavily on those member households who did not wish to pay through the courts, as they did not bother to turn up to vote in opposition at the appropriate time.
Several 'strapped for cash' pensioners were given help to access bank loans to stretch the costs over many years.

30% open space for communal use was not an issue as the original developer had done that in 1970.

It wasn't a fun process, but the community is now well groomed (we pay men to sweep our own streets and mow our own communal lawns, as we know the Ayuntamiento would not get around to it) and the alternative was to let it fall into disrepair.

In the Almanzora situation, the only thing I would point out is that - instead of bitching, moaning and blame laying - consideration be given to taking matters into the residents own hands, estate by estate. Which is what prompted me to reply to your previous post, as you seemed to be of similar mind Saffi.


.

[andie]

Steve / Andie,

There is no point in badgering Roger to answer questions he just does not have the answers to at present, it is WAY too soon in the process..........why keep nagging and blaming him for not providing he cannot actually provide right now?  We all know what the most likely answers will be

Saffi
answering questions,is all part of local poltics, and Roger has 30 years of expernce in dealing with preceved idiots like me and answering thair questions.
i suspect he knowes the answers to my 2 simple honest qustions ,why not tell us  ? after all we could be shortly entering his brave  new world of local poltical transaprency .
lets start now !   :tiphat:  S

[Saffi]

Steve / Andie,

There is no point in badgering Roger to answer questions he just does not have the answers to at present, it is WAY too soon in the process..........why keep nagging and blaming him for not providing he cannot actually provide right now?  We all know what the most likely answers will be

[Titch]

Tom Tom

The AUAN have worked tirelessly to raise the profile of the problems of the illegality situation in the valley.  There has been publicity in Spain, Britain and many other European countries. MEPs and MPs have visited the region and offered support, which is all they could do. There is of course the Auken report which condemns Spain's record on urban abuse and the embarassing tirade by Marta Andreasen against Zapateros when he took over the European Presidency. Much of this can be found on the Auan web-site. I do hope that your question was genuine and not posted to stir things up.

All lawyers are expensive and so are expert planners without which the facts cannot be known. Few people could afford the fees by themselves that is why the Association was formed, to find out the truth whilst sharing costs.  At the outset, no-one ever thought that the battle could be so complicated, difficult and so prolonged. Let battle continue on all fronts, by everyone in a loud voice.

If you want to know how the AUAN came about, ask Uncle Bob. Few people realise the terrible things (and not only words) he had to endure whilst standing up for his principles. The questions Roger gets on the forum are pretty tame by comparison. On the whole I think Roger does a pretty good job answering questions on his own behalf. He doesn't need anyone else batting for him.

I would still like to know whether the full written planning information for the JULY 2009 Junta approved plan has been translated and the implications fully understood.

The help desk is working on a small front, namely in Arboleas. I do not belittle their efforts past, present and future.  What hapens in Arboleas may have an impact on what happens to the other towns in the area. The AUAN and the help desk are both doing a good job in my opinion. Neither organisation need the sniping that they have been given in the past on this forum.

Titch

[andie]

after reading some of the input from our "prospective new autum poltical team" and thair freinds,and  thair lack of  or the ability  to answer relevent  honest  desent questions posed ,its starting to look like same **** diffrent day for me here on the poltical front.
i was brought up in heavy enginnering ie 1000,man boiler maker,s and AUEW  mass meetings were folks had thair say,and voted,
our  prospective political,s refusing to answer  honrable desent questions,and hoping to maintain credability is certainly a new one on me on the poltical stratagdy front.

just an observation,and no offence intended.

S   :tiphat:

[Danno]

What posts are you reading where there is all this anti Help Desk stuff you are complaining about, Rogelio?  It is a figment of your imagination!

I doubt there is anyone reading this forum who is anti Help Desk. I am not anti Help Desk.  I am anti PSOE because they have proved themselves incompetent.  I have explained why I believe some AUAN members no longer post on this forum.

However, Roger is a 'political animal', with a self professed influence on the local PSOE Mayors, so questioning him about his knowledge of what is going on is surely acceptable, and should not be construed as anti Help Desk?

Try and see it this way, Fergie is criticised and questioned about her trying to sell access to Prince Andrew, that doesn't mean all her good works for charity is being criticised as well??

Reading the numbers who are on line is meaningless in this context, some are selling cars (this is the forum I would advertise to sell a car), some are asking the way to Murcia Airport, some are complaining about the lack of utilities.  2,000 viewings are made up of the same people coming back again to see what's going on.  As seems to be the nature of many Brits out here, few are interested in politics, and few are willing to put their heads above the parapet and do much.

We'll see how many will respond to the Help Desk AND AUAN urgings to get registered to vote. Whether they vote, and how, will be for them and their consciences.  

Danno

[tomtom]

What have the AUAN actually achieved since they began? UP THE REVOLUTION

[iuvlambos]

Rogelio, I guess we must agree to disagree. 

The anti AUAN vitriol on this forum has been unbelieveable which is why, I believe, AUAN members can no longer be bothered with it. Claiming this is the most popular forum in the region sounds rather tough to prove, I suspect....has there been a vote? I must have missed it. The Sun newspaper is the most popular newspaper in the UK, based on sales figures, is that a reflection of its 'quality'?  These political threads are only visited by a relatively small number of people, and an even smaller number bother to post.

Danno

You mean the similar anti help desk vitriol handed out by AUAN members? Both are as bad as eachother.  As to the forum being the most read just look at the numbers on line at any one time and make a comparisson. Says it all.  Why need a vote when the figures are there for all to see anyway.  Perhaps I should have made it clear earlier but I am a supporter of the AUAN just simply cannot understand why they refuse to post on this forum.  I would hardly call over 2000 viewings a small number would you? True the same people are posting as they always do. Pro help desk and AUAN members with the odd person like saffi popping the odd sensible post.  Is it no wonder others do not post?  If they post in support of the help desk AUAN members come running them down. If anyone dare say anything against the AUAN the same people draw back the cannons and starting firing in earnest.

[unclebob]

No-one, and I probably include Andie in this, believes that Roger is anything other than an honest man trying to move things along.
Despite the 'bigot' and 'overly aggressive'  tags attached to me by Carsons, (which I found totally disgusting) I genuinely applaud the work that Roger does in the help desk.
As I posted before, I distrust ALL politicians, and unfortunately, Roger is the only Ex-Pat available to throw our questions at, and in fairness, he has stood up to them remarkably well, however, my  doubts about his political awareness result from the fact that his naive belief that the Mayor, the councillors and 'others' were telling him the truth, when all around, people were saying, look out, beware, check your information. (There is of course JS in Zurgena, but I will not go down that route).
Why on earth would anyone believe a local Mayor in Spain, only an aspiring politician. If Roger decides he wants to go down the political route so that he can move things on (though heaven only knows why, given the grief that comes ones way), then good luck to him. If however he has other agendas, or has adopted other agendas to further his cause, then that is a real and dangerous issue for the people of Arboleas, and it is them who will decide.
From me, a pat on the back for Roger, but please don't think that just because I admire someone's pluck and tenaciousness, I am about to let them have a free reign on spouting their political dogma, it is after all, just political spin.
Keep up the good Help Desk work, but tell us how you think you can do things better.

[Danno]

Rogelio, I guess we must agree to disagree.  

The anti AUAN vitriol on this forum has been unbelieveable which is why, I believe, AUAN members can no longer be bothered with it. Claiming this is the most popular forum in the region sounds rather tough to prove, I suspect....has there been a vote? I must have missed it. The Sun newspaper is the most popular newspaper in the UK, based on sales figures, is that a reflection of its 'quality'?  These political threads are only visited by a relatively small number of people, and an even smaller number bother to post.

Roger chooses to make statements on this forum from time to time.  Is it unreasonable to question these statements? Roger has political aspirations, he can therefore expect to have his statements questioned, his intentions put under scrutiny.

I have made plain my distrust of anything to do with the PSOE party.  I do not believe they have any serious intention of resolving the mess we are in.  I also believe they have forgotten, if they ever knew, that they are public servants, hence the high handed attitudes of the Mayors. Carsons is always chuntering on about respecting them, they have done NOTHING to deserve any respect.  They need some time in the political wilderness to get rid of the old guard and bring in younger, less hindbound talent.  As a PSOE activist, Roger is someone I have been able to challenge on the PSOE's disgraceful record.

Regretably, I suspect Roger was too trusting of the Arboleas Town Hall.  He has trusted a Mayor who did not deserve his trust.  He has the chance to 'get the bad news' out of the way early, if he is to form some other grouping to challenge the PSOE at the next election (if that is what he is doing - must we wait 'til the autumn to know?).  The questions he is being asked won't just go away.  As the election approaches, more and more will want to know the truth.

Danno

[iuvlambos]

They have stopped posting on this forum as far as I can see. Why? It is the most popular forum in the region yet they decide not to use it and spread their word. I find it very strange and I am sure many others do too.

The Almanzora Valley Forum is the only forum where they officially make posts.

That is my point. Why choose a forum that hardly anyone reads?  It simply does not make any sense, unless of course they are behind the forum then fair enough.

[andie]

rogelio
its pretty common Knowledge that Roger,is very polticaly active locally and has 30 years poltical experience,its also a fact,that he is the social secatry of the psoe / and an activist  for the psoe,and ruling Arboleas town hall.

are you saying that non poltical  members of the public  like me shouldent ask questions of a "non Bull ****  to the point  nature". ?

if you are what will be the point in local councilors of any nationality in the first place ?

im supprized how sensative some of our poltical helpfulls are,with the masses of experience thay purport to have .

S   :tiphat:

[Lynne]

They have stopped posting on this forum as far as I can see. Why? It is the most popular forum in the region yet they decide not to use it and spread their word. I find it very strange and I am sure many others do too.

The Almanzora Valley Forum is the only forum where they officially make posts.

[iuvlambos]

Hullo!  This is a forum!  It is where people chat about things, voice opinions, ask questions, sometimes even get answers. If you don't want to join in the discussion, you don't have to. Why is it, on THIS forum, when people ask genuine questions, the usual suspects start screaming abuse at the questionners?

Danno

It is where people also answer questions as Roger has done. Yet people like you and other protectors of the AUAN who no one is allowed to comment on unless it is positive, continue to barrack Roger and the help desk. It seems it is fine for people to harrass Roger but do not dare mention the AUAN as not doing such and such and all hell breaks loose. Andie/ steve demands people to have degrees before they can comment and insists that people join the AUAN, what qualifications do any of them have?  What is the difference between them and the help desk? Other than they pay an expensive lawyer. The difference is that the help tells people what is going on.  If the AUAN had actually acheived something it would have been shouted from the rootops instead of keeping it all to themselves and its members. Or are they just fearful that they would receive the same sort of abuse that Roger and the help desk has had. They have stopped posting on this forum as far as I can see. Why? It is the most popular forum in the region yet they decide not to use it and spread their word. I find it very strange and I am sure many others do too.

[Titch]

Roger, I think that your summation of the Arboleas council is probably very accurate and is probably similar in lots of villages.

You can't really expect the Mayor to fully understand planning law, but you would expect him to take advice from someone who is properly qualified.  (His 'family' part-time architect doesn't count, particularly as he under investigation.)  It's about time the village takes the lazy deputies to task as it's the town's money being wasted.  Do the Spanish ever comment on the disgraceful state of affairs in the Town Hall?

I hope that however you decide, you can make a difference.

Titch