Cantoria urbanisation costs

[atnuj]

Safffi asked      "would you be willing to act as an Adviser?"
 
Atnuj regretably has to reply     "I'm busy trying to sell solar panels – but like anyone else with an interest, for sure I will chip in when I can"


Saffi said       "I see that the possibility of 30 euros per m2 was mentioned in the Costa Almeria News today by Maura Hillen"

Atnuj read the same article, and read that the company charged with the estimate of costs for Cantoria had estimated €11 – but the AUAN Presidente, having seen that estimate, was warning that it did not include costs for off urbanisation sewage treatment plant, whilst also making the point that it is also not reasonable to pay for such infrastructure when it was included in the original house price.


Unclebob reported       "That there is already a plan in place (for some 3 years now), where the whole Almanzora Valley benefits from a sewage system"

Atnuj thinks that that is not greatly publicised, compared to the Levante sewage plant.....


TomTom mentioned        "time ticks on"     who can disagree    (your the byeline is briliant Dear Sir or Madam)

"The earth provides enough to satisfy every man's needs, but not every man's greed" 


Juansheet said "I wont  even consider spending another cent to sort out problems that I didnt create"

Atnuj thinks that either Communities, Town Halls, or the Junta will simply remove your choice in that, which is of course a decision to be made by everyone - to be clear - participate, or 'go along with what others decide for you'

[JuanSheet]

Well said tomtom    My stance has always and always will be that the Spanish  town halls are the culpable ones throughout this ongoing fiasco,however I am disappointed to see a weakness in the british people around here who think they are obliged to buy their way out of problems made by the town hall.
I cant believe the stupidity of these people,  they must have made their money a lot easier than I did,because I wont  even consider spending another cent to sort out problems that I didnt create.
I strongly  believe that some contributors to this forum have a vested interest in forming associations etc to get the cheapest price for their urbanisation infrastructure,perhaps they are the developers themselves.
Please dont be mugged  again  say no no  no.
Get the sewerage works built and well all pay for it on the rates.  

Juan s

[tomtom]

I suppose it depends on who you listen too,but to say Zurgena has no probs is ludicrous beyond belief.Setting up committies is all very well and should be encouraged,but the longer developers ,town halls etc are left to argue the toss,time ticks on and eventually when some folk come to their senses and realise denuncias should be issued against the afore mentioned,it will be too late.There is no money in the pot(anyones pot) to put in infrastructures,the junta will not grant an amnesty,the spanish authorities don't give a fig,they still get plenty from the EU fund pot.It will take years to sort and segregate land,before the buildings can then be put into any sort of order.As to mortgages,check what the bank has put down for the property,if it is for a vivienda and you have paperwork for a nave or similar,they can't touch you if you fall behind on the repayments. :whistle:Remember that for every spanish person who says they are on your side there are thousands you aren't.Spain is and has always been a very racist country.UP THE REVOLUTION

[unclebob]

In order to soothe things down, might I suggest that followers of this thread check across to Jim Simpsons blog, where he extols the virtue of Zurgena and its progressive and advantageous position with respect to other municipalities.
For example:
All the infrastructure is already in place, and no-one in Zurgena will need to pay any infrastructure costs.
That there is already a plan in place (for some 3 years now), where the whole Almanzora Valley benefits from a sewage system (no costs were mentioned).
That 'allegedly' all properties in Zurgena are on urban land.
Well thank heavens that at least one municipality has got it right, and that the benefits of having a progressive and inquiring English councillor in the Town Hall is showing results.
Albox (and others ) please note.

[Saffi]

I see that the possibility of 30 euros per m2 was mentioned in the Costa Almeria News today by Maura Hillen

[Saffi]

Thank you Atnuj, presumably though no business premises and a lower build ratio means a higher fee for others?  I hope your figures are correct!!

You clearly have a lot of experience and useful expertise in this regard - if anyone were to form a community of owners would you be willing to act as an Adviser? I am sure your experience of this process both professional and personal would be invaluable even if by some miracle a solution were found whereby the Town Hall actually paid all the costs.........  I believe also that forming a community group does not exempt individual developers from paying if they were still in existence?

[atnuj]

Saffi,

1. I realise I did not answer one of your questions from yesterday - it was a mixed density urbanisation where we paid €5 per M2 5 years back - plot sizes varied from 500/600 M2 average - up to 2500 and down to 100 for apartments (10% of the total only though). I checked the paperwork a few moments ago, and actually the charge was based on 60% land area and 40% based on build area - sorry I mislead you earlier - I had it in my head it was 100% land based. But that €5 was teh arithmetic from an 800M2 plot with a 160 build and costing €4000. I would repeat that it was a complete 'destroy and replace' project - always more expensive than a 'virgin street' project as there were workarounds for occupied properties. I repeat I can buy €11 but not more.

2. The spilt of 60% and 40% referred to above was a COMMUNITY decision taken at various COMMUNITY meetings (rather stormy with a lot of hollering I remember well!) during the preceeding years. This actually and finally followed the same split which had been used for aportioning charges for ongoing maintenance since teh cCOMMUNITY was formed in 1978, when the original development was built.

General comments,

3. IMHO - nothing will go anywhere in the real world without forming communities - prospective urbanisation by prospective urbanisation.

4. As a grizzled, old, cynical project engineer, I'm missing 3 quotes from 3 contractors to get picky about - prospective urbanisation by prospective urbanisation.

[jabba the cat]

As i have said with all their pull and finance you would have thought they would be able to sort it out but when their in the trough as well...well why should they bother.
Rotten to the core......... as a local Spaniard told me one day not much crime in Spain as it brings shame on their families well it seems not when monies involved socialist's enough said.

[Dionysus]

Getting a mortgage on a property here, is certainly no guarantee of legallity. We changed our mortgage a year ago, so we've had two inspections of the property and the paperwork related to it.
The bank and the building society both thought it was good enough to lend on, but then, they are driven by the profit motive and are probably quite happy to overlook or even deny any problems of legallity!

[digifidd]

hey, everyone told me when you buy here get a mortgage banks dont lend on illegal properties.............. tell me that one again.
Why dont the banks with all their collateral start by taking the builders/solicitors to task for selling illegal properties and advising clients to
take mortages out knowing the paperwork was not legal that could or would help the situation.

Jabba, hate to tell you but I reckon they were in on it too!!  We were told the same and we asked them if everything was legal/fine etc and they said yes.  Goodness, their surveyor came out to look at the property so they knew where it was built.  Certainly, our bank says that illegal properties are still being sold - they just don't seem to see a problem with it as long as they are getting their fees and mortgage payments.  The hell to financial security or prudence it seems!

I must say though, that now I think all mortgage requests need to be backed up by an LFO, however how many of those have been issued illegally and then rescinded?!

[blueboy]

Well I'm back, had to go fishing and shooting today so I'm a bit tired, however.
Your right steve it is only mega cheap property selling, people are taking a chance on the legal side of things.
I've had loads of stuff from banks and agents knocking out repo's and at the right price I would take a chance as well.
Regarding the general market I would not go there and most people won't either.
You can quote all the agents you like but you won't be telling the truth.
Just like the Spanish ambassador on the box the other night, he came across like an out of work car salesman, the man needs help, but of course he is part of the system.

Two years ago, I tried to buy another villa in Arboleas but my new Solicitor from out of town said !don do eet! I told him !but it's in Arboleas and they have no problems there! he replied ! you don leesen blueboy, I tol ju, don do eet! so I took his advice and here I am.  :tiphat:

[andie]

Saffi
anything will sell if its wright money,if thairs a mojacar 2 bed apt that was 210 e 3 years ago,on the bank repro books at 85ke then yes thair going to fly out the door at a 1.20 pound

i also now a few folks in the no,and apperently the only stuff that is selling is CHEAP , wich is no good to a house trapped over commited seller.

and i recon its going to get cheaper still.

Intresting to read your overveiw tho

S   :wave

[Saffi]

Steve, sorry but you have no idea, loads of spanish are snapping up bargains with cash along the coast!  It is not Estate Agent spin as I know many Agents and all say the same thing and the properties disappear from their books, the Notaries have queues for appointments - property IS selling especially as it is cheaper now than last year!  There will always be people who wait for a crisis and then buy, the only property that is not selling is off plan, with good reason....but re-sales are flying off IF realistically priced - I am talking about the coastal area here I must add but also many of the best priced Arboleas properties have also sold, other europeans are in the euro so it is not as crucial for them.

I am not even going to comment on wider issues other than to say the housing legality issue is but a drop in the ocean to the issues facing Spain and over-building and numerous other issues are far more important and far reaching ones.

[jabba the cat]

hey, everyone told me when you buy here get a mortgage banks dont lend on illegal properties.............. tell me that one again.
Why dont the banks with all their collateral start by taking the builders/solicitors to task for selling illegal properties and advising clients to
take mortages out knowing the paperwork was not legal that could or would help the situation.

[andie]

No Steve - you are missing the legal facts, infra-structure costs have been imposed on property owners for decades in Spain.  The british are far from the only buyers.  An established legal procedure will not be changed for one proportionately small group of property owners and there is more confidence in the current property market than last year!  

lets hope the banking system and the EU have your confidence Saffi because i certainly havent .

thay will have to draw a line,legalize every thing ,the laws one thing,putting bread on the countrys table is another ,even the sp ambasidor got sent to watchdog to flog a few houses and limit the damage.

and increasing property confidence !   :crazy:  :crazy:  :rofl:

come on mods lets have a vote   S  :tiphat:

[unclebob]

Saffi
You contribute greatly to this forum, and your input is focussed and worthwhile, but this:..............

there is more confidence in the current property market than last year! 

Is just estate agent spin. Who the hell can afford property, when the whole of Europe is in clamp-down.

[Saffi]

No Steve - you are missing the legal facts, infra-structure costs have been imposed on property owners for decades in Spain.  The british are far from the only buyers.  An established legal procedure will not be changed for one proportionately small group of property owners and there is more confidence in the current property market than last year! 

[andie]

Saffi yer still missing the point

if thay empose infrastructer cost on the home owner ,it will finish buying confidence for years . SP  by all acounts owes the EU  1 trill euros,with little or no chance of paying it back combine this with creeking overstocked over exposed banks,results could be disaster, IF its the housing issues arnt sorted soon .

maybe the mods will stick a pole up  ie would you pay  over 5k for infrastructer to legalize your home  yes or no

S   :tiphat:

[Saffi]

Uncle Bob - I think 30 euros per m2 is probably excessive for most of the properties around Arboleas, but realistically I reckon between 15 and 20 euros per m2.  However it is a how long is a piece of string scenario.

By suggesting a committee of owners I am not at all saying give up fighting but unless you want to start a war the only way to change any system is from within.  Therefore follow the spanish way, legally constitute as Committees of Owners so that you HAVE to be considered and consulted and then the Town Hall will know you are not a push over who does not understand Spain, you have to make them take you seriously and you can only do this by ensuring you have everything you can possibly have to empower yourselves as much as possible.

Moral justice and natural justice do not come in to this, I do not know any legal system in the world that actually has natural justice at its core let alone morality, its all a game  - I am simply offering realistic advice based on experience in Spain and spanish law - if you want to be empowered then empower yourselves the spanish way by forming communities of owners to tackle these issues, at least then you will be in a position to get the best possible deal you can.  

Sorry but it is pie in the sky to believe there will be any other option than to pay out something, regardless of outrage, what is right etc etc........what matters is how much you have to pay out, whether you can negotiate special terms and so on, plus be in charge of the work so at least then you know you will not be ripped off again. There is no way these properties can be made legal without urban infra structure as proscribed by law, no way, the only possible exceptions would be older properties re-built and registered for 2 years or more before 2003

As for septic tanks I have looked at this again and again and the best I can come up with is that communal ones could possibly be accepted but not individual ones and to be honest an individual one to new requirements comes out at close to 3000 euros alone........I priced one up with a supplier and the Junta regulations a few weeks ago.

[digifidd]

I'm with you Hogs on this one - why should we pay again for someone elses illegal actions.

That is not to say that I think the idea about a development association is a bad one, but in my case, my neighbours came down heavily on our Spanish neighbours' side as they did not want to rock the boat and run the risk of getting cut off from their illegal electricity supply like we did, so they aren't very communicative with us nor us with them!!

I don't even know whether it has dawned on them yet that they have been spoon fed a load of rubbish by the developer, despite our laying out of the evidence before we left and so we haven't spoken to them since 2006, despite our spasmodic trips back to our villa to check all is ok.

We know that the developer is still about as his main business wasn't building houses but something else, plus our 'development' is in the middle of his working olive/almond farm, but he would have no intention of funding infrastructure that's for sure.

The idea will only work if you are amongst like-minded people who aren't afraid to face the reality of the situation and who are prepared to work together.

This sadly, I could not guarantee amongst our cluster of houses.

[jabba the cat]

unclebob agree catch 22 but my opinion is its just bodge up from start to finish and the ones who started it get away Scott free and no responsibilities.
On our urbanization this is the situation.
Villas issued with legal paper work, roads and lights in no sewage now illegal but near me Villas have been sold by estate agents in the village and on the coast
Villas  no legal paper work, no roads no lights no sewage some but not all connected to water and electricity.
Villas escritura for land, escritura for property some Villas connected to water and electricity some not at all with roads and lights but no  sewage and still cannot get C.F.O.most of  these villas are on the same tarmac road till the tarmac runs out       :head :head  MR MAYOR   why is it that 20/30 properties side by side and opposite each
other some  built earlier are legal and some older ones are not and now the
Urban plans passed but no paperwork to be given out for 12 months then after that what then another change of paperwork.
Simple solution your not going to knock all theses villas down so why in Gods name dont you just make them legal and lets get on with our lifes and you can then try and run the council like you are supposed to do for the good of every one here.

[Titch]

With many of the plots of 2500 m2 in and around Albox, the houses have been built in the centre of the plot.  There is no way to sell part of the plot to offset the cost of urbanisation short of knocking the house down, filling in the swimming pool and starting again.

What a mess!

Titch

[andie]

yep fair comment Hogs,folkes have already being mugged once   :tiphat:  S

[HogRider]

In my mind the infrastructure costs came into being when the land owner / developer first broke ground with a JCB, before concrete was poured or a block laid, the debt surely must be with the originator of the debt not the subsequent owner.

Its a bit like buying a car from a bank robber and getting nicked for the blag !

Isn't it odd though you can get nicked in your car, found guilty in your absence, by awarded a fine plus interest, have your Bank accounts raided by the Guardia on an embargo and the money taken. Yet a Town Hall can't get the money that we've all paid as part of a sales contract for infrastruture from thieving Builders and Developers  ! Wonder why that is then, probably all part of the Spanish Family Plan to get rich quick !

Hogs

[andie]

one of the main points been missed here is that the "system stood by" and allowed all this clap & and took taxes from it, hence thay are morally culprable

if folks are FORCED to get thair hand down,no body in thair wright mind will invest here,thus collapsing property prices even more.

its not abought mud slinging its about looking outside of the box ,and folks running around qoating laws & legalitys in a legally challanged state plainly arnt.

as one shot says people aint got any money to invest even if thay wanted to .

basikly at some point the state will have to draw a line under this sorry episode,issue paperwork regardless of legality and get the country back to work.


S   :tiphat:

[blueboy]

unclebob
It never got that far after smelling a rat, only a deposit and a rundown of total costs I would have to pay if I had proceded,from my solicitor, plus some other costs but all was recovered after a fight.
Had my solicitor been any good, none of it would have hapened, we live and learn.
Blueboy. :tiphat:

[blueboy]

atnuj
Yes thats a very good point I never looked at it that way before.
The only difference I supose is that nobody stole my tyre and it only cost about £140 to replace.
On the other hand the place I was going to buy would have cost over £200,000.
Only a small difference I know, but not being all that bright I thought I might contribute to the thread.
By the way. if I had a tyre burst and thought it was a manufacturing fault, I would buy a new tyre, then sue the manufacturer and get on with my life.
Blueboy :tiphat:   

[unclebob]

Interesting point blueboy, however.
If your builder DID apply and pay for a licence, and it WAS issued, then it was issued illegally, which is why we have several houses down for demolition.

Infrastructure costs are ALWAYS down to the land-owner.

I can't own my house (and land) until it is legalised.
I can't get it legalised until the infrastructure is in place.
I can't put the infrastructure in because I don't own the property.
Isn't this called catch 22.

[unclebob]

Heres a point.
I Live in La Aljambra. Just half a mile up the road from here is a marble processing factory, built about 2008/9. They have quite a few workers there, and obviously toilet facilities.

This MUST be legal (DOH!), as it was built after the building ban came in to force. SO! Where is their sewage system, where did their lights come from, what water supply do THEY have?

One rule for them..................................

[atnuj]

Blueboy, what do you do if a tyre on your car blows out - sue the tyre manufacturer and wait for the legal system to sort it out - leaving the car off the road- or buy a new tyre and get on with life?

[blueboy]

What I find strange here, is that you are talking about way's of paying for the infrastructure of the area and indeed argueing different aspects of how to go about it.
On the other hand, some are moaning (rightly) about the inability to sell their property and the reasons why they can't sell.
As an outsider looking in, with a view to buying there, (well, was) after looking at all my old paperwork from an aborted attempt at buying, I see that in most cases you have already paid for all the infrastructure, just as I would have if I had not pulled out.
This money also included taxes and fees paid to different authorities,(I had asked for a complete run down on costs).
It seems that many of you are quite willing to roll over and feed the dragon again, because until these utilities are in place and paid for your properties won't be legalised.
I supose it's all a matter of trust, because the same people will be taking your money and applying the law that turned you over in the past.
Please put me right if I have any of this wrong because I am just an ordinary person willing to learn :tiphat:
 

[atnuj]

On the 3 important issues:-

1. Clearly the legalisation issue is paramount. But as I understand it a reason for not legalising is non conformance regards completion of the urbanisation infrastructure. So, to answer Steve's latest point, it's muddied by this €11 to €30 cost that the 'mythical somebody' will have to pay..... You certainly can blame the town hall for not insisting and ensuring the developers did that, but if the developer is not still around.... and the town hall has no money.... the only way forward is to 'group up' and do something instead of sling mud.

2. A modern individual biological sewage unit discharges the treated water into an underground 'soakaway' or uses it for irrigation - so if there is no discharge from the property, and the water being discharged within the property is purified, why should there be any need for the householder to pay for any 'main drains' system. It'd be lovely for any town to have one, so all the older properties and businesses (and the Town Hall) could tap into it.... What I don't understand is why the pipes etc.  aren't in the €11 figure. I can see why it wouldn't cover the cost of a central sewage treatment works, but surely that is what the rates are for isn't it?

3. Setting up a 'Community' is the norm in Spain - even the speculative blocks of flats on the coast have 1 for each urbanisation - ask anyone you know who has a place near the coast - sorry - if you want urban land it is mandatory to have a 'Community' which levies from residents and pays for internal maintenance work - it's why the 'rates' are so low - it's not done by the Town.

[andie]

Steve - your insinuations about people who post on this forum are really very offensive.  The law in Spain is crystal clear about this issue

Saffi :tiphat:
i dont wish to come over a little Dim, :o but if the SP gov had stuck to the law  in the first place  99 % of this clap wouldent have happened.  808
its a goverment cock up, the  goverment  should pay !! unless thay want to finish contruction based investment here for 25 years  :o
but that one probably wont be in a D Searl book   :wave  

the bigger worry is for the folks with houses sat on un urbanisable land with value less homes and  no services.

S   :tiphat:

[unclebob]

Saffi
We have talked before on this subject of septic tanks. I have looked at the EU regulations regarding septic tanks, and it clearly states that individual houses CAN have septic tanks. I know that this is just an EU regulation, and when did Spain (or other countries conform), BUT!

If a group of houses insisted on having septic tanks, it would be a brave council that would take legal action when it is an EU regulation. Whilst we could not afford the legal costs, most councils couldn't either.

[unclebob]

I agree with Saffi, that wherever we can, residents associations should be formed, and formally registered, however, I see this as a way to fight our corner, rather than as a first option to find a cheaper way to install the missing infrastructure.
How on earth anyone thinks that having paid 180K euros in 2003 to buy a house, only to find 7 years later, people are talking about paying half as much again to legalise it is beyond me.
Adding on legal fees, documentation, taxes and sewage costs, the figures we are talking about are truly frightening. For various sized plots these are:
600      between 16,000 and 28,000
1000      between 21,000 and 40,000
1500      between 26,500 and 55,000
2000      between 32,000 and 60,000
2500      between 37,500 and 80,000
And the upper figure is probably shy of the mark at that (if one considers 30 euros per M2 as anywhere near real.... and knowlegable people DO!)

I have been accused of scaremongering in the past, so if anyone is about to go down that route, can I ask Saffi if she could give an opinion?

Long long before we show any signs of getting our own infrastructure, we should be confronting the Town Halls (some will disagree with the confrontation idea I know), and telling them, that they must find an alternative, or at least a compromise.
This is just not acceptable, and we should be telling them so now, so that they know they are in for a fight.