Elections

[palminspain]

Fortunately we can still find Roger's wonderful old publications.

For example, this publication reporting that Angel García (PP Candidate and former mayor) was paying his membership subscription to the PSOE with a town hall bank account.

Roger: "For the English readers who cannot follow this, in summary it has been discovered that the former Mayor has been paying his membership subscription to the PSOE by Direct Debit from the Town Hall account.
He states that it is an error in the bank.
The question is how the Town Hall account reference was entered into the PSOE account for them to take the subscriptions by Direct Debit, and why the former mayor did not notice all this time that there were no deductions made from his personal account for his quarterly political subscriptions."

You cannot view this attachment.

Roger, you like hide and manipulate the information. Only was a pool....


More info about this case: https://www.20minutos.es/noticia/2294613/0/psoe-da-baja-al-exalcalde-portavoz-arboleas-por-no-pagar-cuotas-investigadas-por-ayuntamiento/

[Johnny73]

I have had a pop at Roger over the years and when he was assistant mayor but we thought he did tremendous work on behalf of the expats over the years. He was not always correct like most of us but I remember a time when if a pot hole needed mending he was asked on the forum to deal with it.
Mike did lots of good work over the years but he also promised us things personally 10 years ago which he never dealt with.
All be over on Monday and us folk within spitting distance of the TH will move in and welcome the old or the new.
No big deal. Life's too short.

[doreen1]

I do hope that these posts are not deleted by you Roger as you've done in the past. It will be good to refer back to them in the future.

[Roger]

Mike has repeatedly told people to forget the builders.
The clients will have to pay.
That's what he has told many people.

Fortunately he isn't on the PP list.

[Roger]

Well Mike you really are a nasty person.
No I don't have a vendetta against the world.
Unlike you from the age of 30 I have spent all my spare time helping people.

You have said to people that you don't like the British.
I have seen first hand your attitude when we were in the same office in the town hall.

Let's hope that on Sunday we get some decency in the town.

.

[Mike Page]

Its not an outrageous comment Johnny and nothing to with intelligence, we live in a village with an aging population working with a foreign language that they do not understand and trying to make heads or tales of urban law etc which most have never had to do back in the Uk as it is done by solicitors, these people do not need Roger confusing things more and using them for his own little vendetta against the world.

        Regards Mike

[Tetley]

Quote Mike , ###. it would be best to send people that have a clue about what they are talking about, not people that can not remember a three item shopping list, it is no wonder your information is so false and confused, ##£

What an outrageous comment.!!!
Not everyone may be as intelligent as you  think you are but no need  for that sort of comment .
Time you were all gone .
Shows how you treat the public.

Johnny lets all be outrageous  ,just bang the Sex Pistols on for an hour and have a pogo round the front room ,im pogoing in the shed now its wonderful 

(for anybody on the incapacity, best give the pogoing a miss or pull the blinds down so your not seen    x )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLCv-7MthFk   

 

[Johnny73]

Quote Mike , ###. it would be best to send people that have a clue about what they are talking about, not people that can not remember a three item shopping list, it is no wonder your information is so false and confused, ##£

What an outrageous comment.!!!
Not everyone may be as intelligent as you  think you are but no need  for that sort of comment .
Time you were all gone .
Shows how you treat the public.

[Tetley]

dont know what were all going to do next week,could be at a bit of a loose end after all this election spin and bubble .....

specially if its still raining ....   xx

[Roger]

Palminspain

I don't know or care who sold the land to Cristobal Berbel.
I assume all within the extended Garcia family.

I only care about solving the problem.

Surely your suggestion that the clients should take the builders to court is a joke.

To spend the rest of their lives in Spanish Civil courts at huge expense, knowing that the money is long gone, spent or hidden.

Your suggestion shows a total lack of understanding or compassion.


See everyone who wants a change on Friday at 8 pm in the Museo

[Roger]

Mike
I have never sent anyone the town to get information


As for the time it's taken to sort out this mess.
The officials in almeria said the delay is due to the town hall.
In my opinion this is either incompetence or lack of interest in making it a priority.

You said it's complicated.
In my opinion that's the same as saying it's beyond your ability.

[Mike Page]

Roger, when you send people to ask questions in the town hall on your behalf because you don't have the courage to do it, it would be best to send people that have a clue about what they are talking about, not people that can not remember a three item shopping list, it is no wonder your information is so false and confused, if people really want to know who is telling the truth they only have to read through the previous posts,
  i.e. I said that the projects were taking a long time as they were complex, I did not say that it was due to town hall incompetence, those are your words, the words of an anarchist feeding his fame from the misery of the people.
  Its there for people to read if they can be bothered and then they will know where the lies come from.

   Nice drop of rain, Regards Mike 

[palminspain]

The important issue to concentrate on is JUSTICE for the 300 British families who were sold illegal homes by the builders.

For me everything else is just election  !!!!!!!

It has been 15 to 20 years. Too long.

Innovation 14 was approved in June 2017.

In 6 years how many of these houses have been legalized by the Town Hall?
NONE.

The only ones near getting legalised are Los Requenas.
In April 2022 they all went to the Town Hall to pay their money.
Over a year ago and still waiting.
How can that be described as competence by the Town Hall?
_________________________________________________________________

Then there is the question of what they will have to pay in taxes which the builders should have paid.

In this whole SIX YEARS we have heard NOTHING from the Mayor.
People have tried and failed to get a meeting with him.
The only information people have been given has been from Mike, the Deputy Mayor.
Was Mike lying when he told people they would have to pay around 10,000 euros?
I don't think so.

Now finally, after 6 years and just days before the election, we hear from the Mayor.
He says he will keep the charges to a minimum.
What does that mean?
Can anyone seriously believe him?
Why have we waited 6 years for this?
_____________________________________________________________________

So what FACTS do we know about these charges?

These are FACTS.

In Los Torres the draft Parcelisation Project requires the payment of 30,000 euros, which is around 2000 euros per house.

In Los Requenas the clients have paid 3300 euros per house.
For them they were able to deduct this from the money they owed the builder.
No other clients are in that position.
So who will pay?
The clients?

And then there is the further charge which the Town Hall does not want to talk about, but which is published in the PERI documents.
3% of the standardized building cost.
Minimum 5000 euros per house.

So it looks like Mike was correct.

This is not justice by any definition.

We need a new administration, a new Mayor who will be honest and open with the people, and who will put the interests of the people above all else.

This election really is the last chance for justice for our neighbours.

Roger, something is clear: you do not answer if the question dont bring political benefit for you. But you can manipulate the information against others. Say the truth.

Was all these lies and manipulation neccesary to come to this point? The core of the problem are the frauder builders. You know well this in Rafael Alberti St. They can block the process.

- freddie says: "Inv 13 saw many people getting their paperwork why wasn't the same done for the 291 other villas"

Where is the problem? Always you can make an AFO and get all the neccesary as Roger says. Or is not possible...?
Obviously, the AFO dont resolve your problem with the builders.

The reality is very complex. 291 buyers was defrauded by builders. The main problem in these cases is the builder as Roger says in his last posts.

If you have a problem with the builder, you have to resolve with him. But the problem with the builders are complex, for example, the case of Rafael Alberti St. I hope that all these builders have their respective report in the police.

About the costs, the builders/promoters must pay these costs. You can report him by defraud. Or not?

All the different political options have said the cost for the owners. Everybody can take their own conclusions. Although there are owners who have not paid anything (Requenas as you say). Others depends of the defrauder builder. Then, it is clear which ever party wins, the owners problems with the builder must resolved.

The spanish burocracy is slow too times... The Requenas and Campillo was presented in Huercal-Overa Register Office in november of 2022 (according to the mayor's facebook), but there is no news... Puff!

The big mistake is choose the person who created this problems. And here, somebody are defending and supporting him and PP. Person that sold the plots where illegal houses was built, and He didnt anything to avoid all these problems from inside of the town hall. It is important that the owners of Rafael Alberti St knows the origin of their problems. Now, he is come back and It would be a big mistake for the town.

For this reason, I repeat you the question:

- Who was the owner of the land where the illegal houses was built in Rafael Alberti St in los Torres?

- What year was the illegal houses built in Rafael Alberti St?

[Tetley]

This can be sorted.
Every other town has sorted it.
So it is possible.
That is why the Junta changed the AFO regulations.
Elect a new administration on Sunday and by the August Fiesta all this will be behind us.
And the new administration can enter discussions with the Junta for the future direction of Arboleas and the future planning regulations.

They can also start to implement their manifesto ...
A pensioners centre
A social centre
An indoor sports hall
Improvements to the health and social care provision
Training for the young people of the town to give them a future.
All these issues have been ignored by the current Mayor.

People may have doubts about promises.
That is understandable.
But we can all be certain of one thing.
If the current Mayor stays in power nothing will change.

Give Jose a chance

Roger who ever wins this Sunday ,the only thing that will be behind us in August is May,June and July 2023......    

[Johnny73]

Quote Palminspain ## Cristobal (Current Mayor): "The Cost of the ARI are all different but in no way will they be the amounts that have been spread about ..... If we win the elections, they will be resolved at the lowest possible cost within the LAW."##
What figure is that ????

Think there is a bit of kite flying here.
Why should a homeowner who bought in good faith a property passed by the Town Hall and paid all requested taxes  now have to pay taxes on behalf of the builder who have friends in high places !!
One builder driving around in his posh Porsche but won't pay a cent holding court in Mora Oil daily. No shame.
Up to folks to decide or just carry on as before.

[Roger]

This can be sorted.
Every other town has sorted it.
So it is possible.
That is why the Junta changed the AFO regulations.
Elect a new administration on Sunday and by the August Fiesta all this will be behind us.
And the new administration can enter discussions with the Junta for the future direction of Arboleas and the future planning regulations.

They can also start to implement their manifesto ...
A pensioners centre
A social centre
An indoor sports hall
Improvements to the health and social care provision
Training for the young people of the town to give them a future.
All these issues have been ignored by the current Mayor.

People may have doubts about promises.
That is understandable.
But we can all be certain of one thing.
If the current Mayor stays in power nothing will change.

Give Jose a chance

[Tetley]

as i understand it ...innovation 14 was pulled in 2019 and is subject to amendments ....

but best ask your lawyers because i may have misunderstood it.....



and as for the powers that be

 ,the AFO That Maura ,Gerardo & AUAN organised is the best in my view in the short term people can do ,

as a lawyer said to me ,they Politicians will not green light blanket legalization because it will give a green light for every land owner in spain to stick a building on the land  .

people need to look at the AFO  ,turn off the non qualified local specialist and contact there accredited specialist and get the job rolling 

because i know of at least three villas of friends that have been re prode by the bank for land payment de faults

also

who ever is elected this Sunday they will face the same Administrative compliance rules

and there are defiantly ....NO  magic wands or planning compliance fairies down the Rambler


as stated before ,most of the issues facing home occupiers are Administrative legal ones and not local political ones .

sadly some people will never see home papers because of the complexity of the situation ie tax office embargos,land disputes,land not paid for ,and land loan bank de faults.

[freddie]

As someone who has been directly involved in these ino 14 villas, why do you keep raking up this all up, why can't the powers that be sort something out for the people involved, many people have died or moved on in the last 18+ years never having got their legal paperwork. God I could scream reading all this when all that matters is that people finally own their own property. Inv 13 saw many people getting their paperwork why wasn't the same done for the 291 other villas I don't want to hear excuses after excuses, what is past is past, builders who built these villas are still living in big houses and driving flash cars why are they getting away with not paying what they should, many people paid for everything at the beginning and yet are being told they have to pay again WHY .
I love our village but like many now wish we had never come here.

[Roger]

The important issue to concentrate on is JUSTICE for the 300 British families who were sold illegal homes by the builders.

For me everything else is just election  !!!!!!!

It has been 15 to 20 years. Too long.

Innovation 14 was approved in June 2017.

In 6 years how many of these houses have been legalized by the Town Hall?
NONE.

The only ones near getting legalised are Los Requenas.
In April 2022 they all went to the Town Hall to pay their money.
Over a year ago and still waiting.
How can that be described as competence by the Town Hall?
_________________________________________________________________

Then there is the question of what they will have to pay in taxes which the builders should have paid.

In this whole SIX YEARS we have heard NOTHING from the Mayor.
People have tried and failed to get a meeting with him.
The only information people have been given has been from Mike, the Deputy Mayor.
Was Mike lying when he told people they would have to pay around 10,000 euros?
I don't think so.

Now finally, after 6 years and just days before the election, we hear from the Mayor.
He says he will keep the charges to a minimum.
What does that mean?
Can anyone seriously believe him?
Why have we waited 6 years for this?
_____________________________________________________________________

So what FACTS do we know about these charges?

These are FACTS.

In Los Torres the draft Parcelisation Project requires the payment of 30,000 euros, which is around 2000 euros per house.

In Los Requenas the clients have paid 3300 euros per house.
For them they were able to deduct this from the money they owed the builder.
No other clients are in that position.
So who will pay?
The clients?

And then there is the further charge which the Town Hall does not want to talk about, but which is published in the PERI documents.
3% of the standardized building cost.
Minimum 5000 euros per house.

So it looks like Mike was correct.

This is not justice by any definition.

We need a new administration, a new Mayor who will be honest and open with the people, and who will put the interests of the people above all else.

This election really is the last chance for justice for our neighbours.

[palminspain]

Roger, a question follow without response:

- Who was the owner of the land where the illegal houses was built in Rafael Alberti St in los Torres?

- What year was the illegal houses built?

I think that This is an important information for the owners of illegal houses in Rafael Alberti.


All roads lead to Rome....

[palminspain]

QUOTE FROM THE MAYOR Yesterday on his facebook page ...

"AFOs are only useful for special cases for houses that are isolated in the mountains and in an exceptional way due to difficulty in finding papers."

This is total rubbish and legally not correct.

I would point out that the Town Hall has been issuing AFOs for several years for houses which do not fit this exceptional case.

Further on his facebook page he is telling people who have been advised to get an AFO that he will help them take legal actions against people giving this advice.

That will be interesting because the people giving this advice are the lawyers of the clients.
And the reason even Mike has said it is a good idea is because the Town Hall has shown itself to be incompetent in completing the planning process.

That is not from me.
It is from the officials in Almeria.
________________________________________________________________________

The problem is not getting an AFO.
It is the threat from the Mayor that they will suffer huge taxes. Mike has told people between 10,000 euros and 20,000 euros.
In Los Torres the clients have been told by Mike that the project requires them to find 30,000 euros between them.
This figure does not include the 5000 euros legalisation tax for each house.
I have not made this up.
It is published in the PERI document in the Town Hall.
___________________________________________________________________________

I have helped around 30 people get their escrituras with an AFO.
It is simple and gives peace of mind, or would if the current Mayor is voted out.
_________________________________________________________________________

The question about the road with AFOs but no escrituras.

The Road is Calle Rafael Alberti in Los Torres.
Most of the clients have afos issued by the Town Hall.
They are in a condominio which they signed in 2008.
To segregate their plots out of the condominio with the afo requires the builder (who is also a part owner of the condominio) to sign at the notary along with each of the clients.
The documents are on the desk of the notary.

But the builder was put into administration due to failure to submit his tax returns.
As a result the notary will not sign the escrituras until the builder sorts this out, which is estimated to be by August.
____________________________________________________________________________

Another problem in Los Torres.
The Town Hall says it has a parcelisation project, so you do not need afos.
But the parcelisation project cannot be registered because there is an embargo by the tax office on the share of the condominio owned by the builder.
This can never be lifted unless the Hacienda decides not renew it because the builder has been trying for 4 years.
So the afo route is the only one possible, not the Mayors's route, because the afo gets rid of the embargo on the share of the finca which will go to the clients, and leaves in in the rest of the finca which is in the name of the builder.
_____________________________________________________________________________

As for Angel Garcia.
He took over in 2009 when Paco died.
And he inherited massive problems.
Some he solved, such as the fact that the people in Los Higuerales had no water.
He started work on the urban plan, but the architect he gave the work to made a mess of it.
Very few people it turned out knew what was required for an urban plan.
He started the process to register houses for IBI, but hit a massive lack of interest from the tax office, as we also did when we took over in 2011.
His fundamental problem, which I told him at the time, was that he had inherited a useless team with no ability, and a Council legal Secretary who was equally useless.
He and I did complete the process of registering every street with a name and every house with a number.
This allowed us to register the houses for IBI in 2011.

All this is forgotten, but I was there at the time.

The problem was that he made a stupid decision, for which he has paid the legal price.
He built a swimming pool on land which was protected at the back of his house.
The current Mayor reported him and he was found guilty.
____________________________________________________________________________

Politics, as life in general, is not perfect.
There is a saying.
The only people who have never made a mistake are people who have done nothing.

I have served with the current Mayor for over 6 years, and I have spent many discussions with Jose and Antonio.
I have no doubt that Arboleas needs a change, and I am sure that Jose will provide this, with transparency and honesty.
Unless this happens on Sunday one thing we can be sure of .. nothing will change.
We will still be having this debate for years to come.

I can see that most people have made up their minds already.
Nothing more can be said to change minds at this stage.
I can see that the Mayor is desperate and will try anything in the next few days, because I can see the tide moving against him.
I may be wrong.
By 9pm on Sunday we will know

I only make questions to have the things more clear. Obviously, I dont think that I can change the vote of people now. But I consider that the information in this forum is being manipulated by political interest.


1. Example of manipulation:

Roger tell us this: "Yesterday the mayor posted that AFOs are illegal for Arboleas."

Current Mayor said: "AFOs are only useful for special cases for houses that are isolated in the mountains and in an exceptional way due to difficulty in finding papers."

I think is not the same words. Everybody can take their own conclusions.


------------------------------------------------------------------------


2. Example of political discussion with manipulation

Roger says: "And the reason even Mike has said it is a good idea is because the Town Hall has shown itself to be incompetent in completing the planning process.

That is not from me.
It is from the officials in Almeria."

Can you show to everybody the official document from Almería where the technicians says this? Or It is a political opinion for the elections? Maybe Antonio from PP can help us.

About this, We have different versions:

- Mike said: "I asked if there was any way of speeding up the process of the PERIs as they were complicated and time consuming projects, to which they replied that they had passed the projects quickly and there were no means of simplifying them as they were as the law requires, it is true they have passed them all quickly and with few required amendments .....  an AFO is a useful tool as although it does not legalize, it gives you tittle to land and property and this can stop embargoes that are not yours, the down side is that it is an extra expense .... it is clear which ever party wins inov 14 and the PERIs still have to be done."

- Pepa says (Mike translation): "Don Roger Done knows that the ARIS must be developed because this is established by the general urban planning plan approved in Arboleas, they are the rules of Arboleas, that is why it is different in other towns because they lack standards, But here they exist and are mandatory for the three parties that are presented, regardless of who wins the elections"

- Antonio (PP Candidate) says another version but opposite: "from the Junta de Andalucia they informed us that the stagnation is a result of the way  the current Town Hall and its administration is handling the matter, a problem which continues with a short-term solution not yet in sight."

- Cristobal (Current Mayor): "Those Neighbours who within an ARI have made an AFO on the advice of a person or Group of people may have induced useless spending because within the ARI what is LEGAL is the Approved Standard Innovation 14".

What is the correct version? Obviously is a political game and the manipulation is allowed. The problem is that there isn't an official document. But one thing is true: there are ARIs in the Huercal-Overa's register office waiting for the final approbation.

Everybody can take their own conclusions.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------


3. Other example of manipulation:

About the AFO, Roger say (at last): "The problem is not getting an AFO .... I have helped around 30 people get their escrituras with an AFO."

Then, why do you repeating in this forum that the town hall dont give AFO all the time?

I dont know if people have to pay these quantities. Obviously, the builders must pay the costs associated to them in the process. I hope somebody can help with this, but a question: everybody with ARI have to pay these quantities or there are special cases due to a problems with their builders?

- Cristobal (Current Mayor): "The Cost of the ARI are all different but in no way will they be the amounts that have been spread about ..... If we win the elections, they will be resolved at the lowest possible cost within the LAW."

- Roger says: "The problem is not getting an AFO. It is the threat from the Mayor that they will suffer huge taxes. "

- Mark Daniels show a document where the cost of ARI for the owners was 0€.

Everybody can take their own conclusions.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

4. Other example of manipulation:

About the AFOs without Escritura in Los Torres:

- Roger says: "The documents are on the desk of the notary. But the builder was put into administration due to failure to submit his tax returns. As a result the notary will not sign the escrituras until the builder sorts this out, which is estimated to be by August."

All this time, the problem was that!? The problem is the builder, then, Why do you blame the town hall about delays all the time?

Everybody can take their own conclusions.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------


5. Other example:

About the other problem in Los Torres similar to the last:

Roger says: "This can never be lifted unless the Hacienda decides not renew it because the builder has been trying for 4 years.
So the afo route is the only one possible, not the Mayors's route, because the afo gets rid of the embargo on the share of the finca which will go to the clients, and leaves in in the rest of the finca which is in the name of the builder."

This case is another problem with the builder. I think that the owners can request an AFO if they want as in the other case. Where is the problem with the town hall Roger? They are free to choose the option. They will be well informed by their solicitors.

Everybody can take their own conclusions.


-----------------------------------------------------


6. The last example:

I dont understand why somebody like you can defend Angel García (PP Candidate). You know well the history. It's strange...

- Roger says: "He built a swimming pool on land which was protected at the back of his house. The current Mayor reported him and he was found guilty."

The current mayor (Cristobal) never reported him. You lie. Angel García (PP Candidate) was reported by another person.

About his period as mayor, Angel was invested oficially as mayor in 2009 and he knew well the situation. Before 2009, He was "mayor in functions" many times due to Paco's illness. All the town of Arboleas know it.

He was three year in the town hall as a mayor to improve the situation, but he only worse it. You know well this, you collaborated with the "help desk" first and then when you started in the town hall.

He didnt only build a pool, he manipulate all from the town hall to get a plot property of the town hall in an auction.  This occurs in 2004. This plot was green area, not urban. Everybody can read the history in this link:

https://www.elmundo.es/andalucia/2015/07/11/55a0178146163f032f8b45b2.html

Everybody can take their own conclusions.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------


And my last question: Who was the owner of the land where the illegal houses was built in Rafael Alberti St in los Torres?

Thanks.

[DLMcN]

You are mixing things up.
I know from experience that the Mayor is often not clear.

The bit you quoted doesn't refer to the taxes the clients will have to pay.
It's about a threat he's voiced before claiming that money in the escrow accounts should not have been used to pay for afos but should be paid to the town hall in taxes.

But it's the clients money.
It's up to them.
Not the Mayor.
They made the decision so why is the Mayor offering them legal advice to challenge how they decided to spend it.
He is dregging the barrel.
Simple.

They got an afo because they had no choice.

Thanks for clarifying ...
[Your two posts earlier today did give a misleading impression>]


Quote from: Roger on Today at 11:28:53 AM
... Yesterday [the Mayor] posted that AFOs are illegal for Arboleas.
A total nonsense.
...

Quote from: Roger on Today at 16:34:28 PM
QUOTE FROM THE MAYOR Yesterday on his facebook page ...

.... >

... on [Cristóbal's] facebook page, he is telling people who have been advised to get an AFO that he will help them take legal actions against people giving this advice.
... >

[Roger]

To further clarify
The money in the accounts is to obtain escrituras.
They the clients decided that they were not prepared to wait indefinitely for the ari so they decided to use an afo.
Much quicker.
In the case of Los Torres it's the only route.

The clients knew what they were doing.
The Mayor is desperately posting rubbish particularly about what an afo is for.
His I formation is 12 years out of date.
The afo law changed in 2009.
Does he really not know?

[Roger]

You are mixing things up.
I know from experience that the Mayor is often not clear.

The bit you quoted doesn't refer to the taxes the clients will have to pay.
It's about a threat he's voiced before claiming that money in the escrow accounts should not have been used to pay for afos but should be paid to the town hall in taxes.

But it's the clients money.
It's up to them.
Not the Mayor.
They made the decision so why is the Mayor offering them legal advice to challenge how they decided to spend it.
He is dregging the barrel.
Simple.

They got an afo because they had no choice.

[DLMcN]

Yesterday [the Mayor] posted that AFOs are illegal for Arboleas.
A total nonsense.
...

QUOTE FROM THE MAYOR Yesterday on his facebook page ...

.... >

... on [Cristóbal's] facebook page, he is telling people who have been advised to get an AFO that he will help them take legal actions against people giving this advice.
... >

Is that^ really a fair and correct translation? ... I am assuming that Roger is referring to this piece in the Mayor's FaceBook:
"Si el dinero no esta en la cuenta, sin cumplir el fin para lo que se hizo. Se podia poner en manos de nuestros asesores juricos para ver responsabilidades de quien a dispuesto del dinero sin entregar los PAPELES".

I confess that I am struggling to understand it properly. Danny did actually attempt to provide a translation, perhaps using Google - which is not always fully reliable.

It could certainly be regarded as an 'unforgiveable sin' for me to try and criticise the Mayor's Spanish. However, I am wondering if the fullstop between the two sections, could just be a 'slip of the pen'... i.e., possibly this might have been clearer:

"Si el dinero no está en la cuenta, sin cumplir el fin para lo que se hizo, se podía poner en manos de nuestros asesores juricos para ver responsabilidades de quien ha dispuesto del dinero sin entregar los PAPELES" -
- where "el fin para lo que se hizo" refers to money paid in for the ARI, and not for an AFO...
... in which case Cristóbal is not threatening to sue people who advise clients to obtain an AFO.

Regards, David Mc

[Johnny73]

Out of curiosity Palminspain who do you think should pay the tax that the Mayor says should be paid by the property owners or the builders who are of course responsible.
Simple question hopefully.
The rest Roger has answered precisely.

[Roger]

QUOTE FROM THE MAYOR Yesterday on his facebook page ...

"AFOs are only useful for special cases for houses that are isolated in the mountains and in an exceptional way due to difficulty in finding papers."

This is total rubbish and legally not correct.

I would point out that the Town Hall has been issuing AFOs for several years for houses which do not fit this exceptional case.

Further on his facebook page he is telling people who have been advised to get an AFO that he will help them take legal actions against people giving this advice.

That will be interesting because the people giving this advice are the lawyers of the clients.
And the reason even Mike has said it is a good idea is because the Town Hall has shown itself to be incompetent in completing the planning process.

That is not from me.
It is from the officials in Almeria.
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The problem is not getting an AFO.
It is the threat from the Mayor that they will suffer huge taxes. Mike has told people between 10,000 euros and 20,000 euros.
In Los Torres the clients have been told by Mike that the project requires them to find 30,000 euros between them.
This figure does not include the 5000 euros legalisation tax for each house.
I have not made this up.
It is published in the PERI document in the Town Hall.
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I have helped around 30 people get their escrituras with an AFO.
It is simple and gives peace of mind, or would if the current Mayor is voted out.
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The question about the road with AFOs but no escrituras.

The Road is Calle Rafael Alberti in Los Torres.
Most of the clients have afos issued by the Town Hall.
They are in a condominio which they signed in 2008.
To segregate their plots out of the condominio with the afo requires the builder (who is also a part owner of the condominio) to sign at the notary along with each of the clients.
The documents are on the desk of the notary.

But the builder was put into administration due to failure to submit his tax returns.
As a result the notary will not sign the escrituras until the builder sorts this out, which is estimated to be by August.
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Another problem in Los Torres.
The Town Hall says it has a parcelisation project, so you do not need afos.
But the parcelisation project cannot be registered because there is an embargo by the tax office on the share of the condominio owned by the builder.
This can never be lifted unless the Hacienda decides not renew it because the builder has been trying for 4 years.
So the afo route is the only one possible, not the Mayors's route, because the afo gets rid of the embargo on the share of the finca which will go to the clients, and leaves in in the rest of the finca which is in the name of the builder.
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As for Angel Garcia.
He took over in 2009 when Paco died.
And he inherited massive problems.
Some he solved, such as the fact that the people in Los Higuerales had no water.
He started work on the urban plan, but the architect he gave the work to made a mess of it.
Very few people it turned out knew what was required for an urban plan.
He started the process to register houses for IBI, but hit a massive lack of interest from the tax office, as we also did when we took over in 2011.
His fundamental problem, which I told him at the time, was that he had inherited a useless team with no ability, and a Council legal Secretary who was equally useless.
He and I did complete the process of registering every street with a name and every house with a number.
This allowed us to register the houses for IBI in 2011.

All this is forgotten, but I was there at the time.

The problem was that he made a stupid decision, for which he has paid the legal price.
He built a swimming pool on land which was protected at the back of his house.
The current Mayor reported him and he was found guilty.
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Politics, as life in general, is not perfect.
There is a saying.
The only people who have never made a mistake are people who have done nothing.

I have served with the current Mayor for over 6 years, and I have spent many discussions with Jose and Antonio.
I have no doubt that Arboleas needs a change, and I am sure that Jose will provide this, with transparency and honesty.
Unless this happens on Sunday one thing we can be sure of .. nothing will change.
We will still be having this debate for years to come.

I can see that most people have made up their minds already.
Nothing more can be said to change minds at this stage.
I can see that the Mayor is desperate and will try anything in the next few days, because I can see the tide moving against him.
I may be wrong.
By 9pm on Sunday we will know

[palminspain]

Think that's politics at it worst . Time to stop the nasty back and forth and let the public vote.
Most folk know what's gone on for many years in the TH and will vote accordingly.
They all know who is related to who.
Palminspain doesent mention how or why people couldent get an AFO from the Mayor or how they see the TH getting properties legalised before owners have died as has already happened or just cut their losses and left.
Que Sera Sera.
And no mention of whether home owners will have to pay the tax to legalise or the builders

johnny73, anybody can request a AFO in the town hall. As I know, there is no problem. Many people did their AFO and sell the house. Where is the problem to request the AFO in the town hall? People can ask this issue directly and discover it. The problem is the manipulated information.

Pepa and Mike was very clear in these issue, especially Mike with his visit to Almería.

But Roger don't answer to Mike question: "Also Roger could explain why there is a street who all have AFO certificates but no-one has an escritura and explain what process is being made to get these escrituras, you are constantly calling for clarity so lets have some from you."

Roger, if the AFO is a quick solution to all the problems, why this happens?

Fortunatelly, everybody can vote and it is important have all the information possible to have clear our vote. We have to contrast the information. Not everything you can read in a forum is true.

and johnny73, if the people know who is related to who, and the things that they made in the past, Angel García (PP Candidate) shouldnt come back to the town hall. Roger know this better than all us.

[pinky]

  roger have sent you a   P.M.

[Johnny73]

Think that's politics at it worst . Time to stop the nasty back and forth and let the public vote.
Most folk know what's gone on for many years in the TH and will vote accordingly.
They all know who is related to who.
Palminspain doesent mention how or why people couldent get an AFO from the Mayor or how they see the TH getting properties legalised before owners have died as has already happened or just cut their losses and left.
Que Sera Sera.
And no mention of whether home owners will have to pay the tax to legalise or the builders

[palminspain]

The big issue is the different policy for the future.

The current Mayor has said he will continue with the current chaos regarding illegal houses.
And he will tax the house owners.

Yesterday he posted that AFOs are illegal for Arboleas.
A total nonsense.
But that's his opinion.

We have seen the PP policy.
It's about justice and concern for the British.

Easy choice.

Obviously, I am anonymous spanish citizien from Arboleas worried by some lies and the "cherry picking" write here.

As always, you only answer what interests you. You didnt response to Mike and you dont also response me.

Mike asked you: "Also Roger could explain why there is a street who all have AFO certificates but no-one has an escritura and explain what process is being made to get these escrituras, you are constantly calling for clarity so lets have some from you."

We are waiting your response Roger.

I asked you: "Why do you talk about the current mayor if the houses of GRAYSAN was built without him in the town hall?
There was other people in the town hall when it happenned. Angel García (PP Candidate) was one of them."

We are waiting your response Roger.

And about the current mayor that you mentioned in your last messages:

Can you show us the post where the mayor says: "AFOs are illegal for Arboleas"?

I think that all the information is good to choose democratilly, but the information must be clear and not based in the political interest.

Everybody can take their own conclusions. Thanks.

PD: I wrote: Angel Granados (GRAYSAN) and Angel García (PP Candidate) are cousins (his father and his mother are brothers).
You explain strongly the relation between the current mayor and Angel (GRAYSAN), but You hide the relation between Angel (GRAYSAN) and Angel García (PP Candidate) when the illegal houses was built. 

[Roger]

The big issue is the different policy for the future.

The current Mayor has said he will continue with the current chaos regarding illegal houses.
And he will tax the house owners.

Yesterday he posted that AFOs are illegal for Arboleas.
A total nonsense.
But that's his opinion.

We have seen the PP policy.
It's about justice and concern for the British.

Easy choice.

[Roger]

 I don't know the point you are making about the Mayor and Angel Garcia being cousins.
They are certainly not close politically.

On the other hand the Mayor and Angel Granados are very close.
As soon as he got into power in 2011 the Mayor started giving town hall work to Graysan, and that has continued for the past 12 years.
With total lack of transparency.

[Roger]

You are obviously Spanish from your grammar.

Posting anonymously on behalf of the Mayor.

Why don't you identify yourself.
Everyone knows me.
Who are you?

[palminspain]

The illegal Grayson houses in Los Requenas were built from around 2005.
That is when they signed the contract with the clients.

Angel Garcia became Mayor in 2009 when the houses were completed.
Prior to that he was a junior councillor with no urban planning responsibility.

As far as I know he isn't related to Angel Granados nor to the current Mayor Cristobal Garcia Granados.

You must know that Garcia is a very common local name.

From your post it reads that you are Spanish so will know this very well.

What is beyond doubt is that Graysan built illegal houses.
The number 5 on the pp list did not.
And that the current Mayor is closely related to the owner of Graysan.
It's the current Mayor who got his cousin started to build houses.
Do you really think it likely that the current Mayor didn't know the land was rustic when his cousin started building?

Maybe you dont know this. It's strange in somebody well informed like you.

Angel Granados (GRAYSAN) y Angel García (PP Candidate) are cousins (his father and his mother are brothers).

Maybe Angel García (PP Candidate) didnt have urban planing responsability directly in that time, but He has resposability as member of the council during all that time.

In 2005 as you say, Angel Granados (GRAYSAN) start and finish illegal houses. He continue building more, and more houses, while Angel García (PP Candidate and cousin) do nothing as member of the council during all that years.

Angel García (PP Candidate) lived in first person all the illegal houses process as member of the town hall and he did nothing. He could dennounce the situation or rennounce as councillor, but he didnt do it.

In a local radio interview, Angel García (PP Candidate) says: "I brings 8 years of political experience to the PP team". (the rest of PP members dont have political experience). It sounds good, but, excuse me, I have some doubts about his experience...

I dont know if Angel García (PP Candidate) was a simple junior councillor with less or more activity in 2005 and later, but in 2009, He was invested by his partners as mayor. He had a great political career progress!!

It's interesting this matter. Jose Juan has good eye to choose his team.

And other important question:

Why do you talk about the current mayor if the houses was built without him in the town hall?
There was other people in the town hall when it happenned. Angel García (PP Candidate) was one of them.

Thanks for your response. It is important clearify the situation.