Calling ALL forum members for your veiw

[ramblarider]

You're the one who supports them. You tell me.

You must think they'd do something.

[Cielos]

What do you think UKIP would do?

How they choose to react is up to them, as long as they are no longer in the UK, causing division and attempting to change our culture to suit them

We need to change the law so it is possible to deport someone back to their or their parents country of origin - if they are proving to be a negative addition to the UK

At the end of March 2013 the prison population was 83,842.

At 30 June 2013 there were 10,786 foreign nationals in prisons in England and Wales from 160 different countries.

At 30 June 2012, the latest published data, over one-quarter of the prison population whose ethnicity was recorded were from a minority ethnic group.

Among British nationals 21% of the population were from a minority ethnic group. 62% of foreign national prisoners were from a minority ethnic group.

[ramblarider]

Colour of skin has nothing to do with it, nor does being a 2nd generation immigrant.  If your family have deliberately segregated themselves from mainstream culture, the kids don't know any different - why do you think many of our young homegrown would-be terrorists believe what they do?

So your "solution" is what, exactly? Round then all up and deport them to a country they were not born in and have never lived in?

How would do this? How do you think they might react?

[Cielos]

Colour of skin has nothing to do with it, nor does being a 2nd generation immigrant.  If your family have deliberately segregated themselves from mainstream culture, the kids don't know any different - why do you think many of our young homegrown would-be terrorists believe what they do?

It is culture not colour that is the thing and many Eastern Europeans have a very different (I'm being polite) culture to ours

[zilnor]

Well said Cielos !   :clap:
I lived in Wapping, east London for ten years and have experience of living close by areas where ethnic minorities live in large numbers !!

I regularly travel from Burton on Trent to Eastbourne by train, including the London underground. RR, I can assure you that many Brits chat to other travellers. I have had a few interesting conversations over the last couple of years with both English speakers and foreigners. By foreigners, I mean people who do not have English as their first language. If that makes me xenophobic or a racist, so be it !! Sometimes my little dog goes with me, and you would be surprised how many people, of all languages and colours start a conversation beginning with how cute my dog is.
And of course, the majority of passengers make or receive at least one phone call on their mobiles, always in fairly loud voices. 

[ramblarider]

That may be so... but what has it got to do with the EU?

Successive UK governments going right back to the early 50's allowed mass immigration from India/Pakistan/West Indies and elsewhere.  That had nothing to do with the EU either. So why attempt to tie it in with an "anti-EU" vote or agenda? Many of these people are now into 2nd and even 3rd generations, born in Britain. UK passport holders. What are UKIP proposing exactly? Surely not "repatriating" people born in the UK to other countries?

Ooops! Almost forgot the Lenny Henry remark:

""He should emigrate to a black country. He does not have to live with whites"

Whether you like it or not, it really is far too late to do anything about this - the demographics are already established. Just as with some of the comments you hear in the US... well, all those black people who they complain about - who bought them there? The slaves themselves had no say in the matter.

So I think the UK (and US) just needs to get used to the fact that they are there, and not going anywhere.

[Cielos]

Not sure when some people on here last took a trip on public transport

The British are not quite the reserved lot they were a couple of decades ago...you have people walking around now with their bums hanging out of their trousers, displaying their muffin tops and talking at the top of their voices on their mobiles.

To say you feel uncomfortable due to feeling like a minority in your own country isn't racist, it's honest.

In my personal experience, there are now swathes of London that on a sunny day would easily pass for India or Pakistan - even the street signs aren't in English.

Women going into these areas in clothes that show even their arms  will get aggressive and threatening behaviour from the male population - they don't want anyone in there, giving their women ideas of independence and want to keep their ghettos completely separate from the UK.

I'm sure other people have experience of other places like Bradford/Birmingham etc.

You could say the same for many  of the Brit estates in Spain - the difference is that the Spanish are doing quite well out of us financially and don't hand out benefits in quite the same way as our UK government.

I also don't see many Brits in Spain insisting that they have their own set of laws or places of worship.

Trying to improve animal welfare in Spain could be seen as interfering with culture by some I suppose, but if immigrants to any country try to improve the existing way of life in positive ways then that should be welcomed.

I don't consider forced marriages or female circumcision to be improvements.
I also don't think we need diseases like TB - something we'd eradicated until recently.

[Karen4]

My passport is due for renewal soon and I'm happy to say I shall be applying for an Irish one this time round, not a UK one. I reckon I have more chance of being freed if I ever find myself in a hostage situation.... ;)
On another note, it's not racist to simply point out the differences in people's cultures, unless the intention is to imply they are inferior to you.
On another note, I was always taught there is only one race - human. There are, however, many cultures and beliefs within this one race. Better? Worse? Or just different?

[ramblarider]

You have not given any  (as you so like to call it) factual evidence, of Farage's story not being genuine.

I did not say it was not "genuine" - simply that he drew the wrong conclusions from the experience and twisted it to suit his own ends.

I used to take the circle line regularly and it was rare to hear anyone at all speak. They sat (or stood) there like dummies. I did not conclude from that they they were unable to do so....

[bobthelook]

Well Ramblarider - how disappointed am I to read your post above - apparently designed to explain the 'mystery' of Farage's comments - you had previously asked us all :

- - - - Nothing at all about that story strikes you as odd?
- - -  So - anyone care to take a wild guess at why this little scenario is not quite what it appears to be?

As no-one had bothered to answer your mysterious little conundrum - you just had to try to explain it!   But actually you have simply rambled on about the supposed  cultural  behaviours of various random nationalities! You have not given any  (as you so like to call it) factual evidence, of Farage's story not being genuine. In fact you will not be able to do so, as you weren't there! And you are not likely to do so with such anecdotal evidence so I suggest that you give up! It is getting rather boring now is it not?  :yawn: :yawn: :whistle:

[ramblarider]

Mr Farage said: "I got the train the other night, it was rush hour, from Charing Cross, it was the stopper going out. We stopped at London Bridge, New Cross, Hither Green.

"It wasn't until after we got past Grove Park that I could actually hear English being audibly spoken in the carriage. Does that make me feel slightly awkward? Yes.

It's very simple. Of all nationalities, the English, along with the Germans and Japanese are the least likely to speak or engage in any social interaction whatsoever on public transport. There have been entire behavioural studies done on this, looking at the peer pressures and the 'preventative' tactics they use to avoid anyone else infringing on their personal space. Lack of eye contact, concentration on reading a book, looking at a 'phone or tablet, headphones on, all designed to avoid any conversation or contact being initiated. The only conversation (if there is any) takes place between individuals who already know each other, and then, usually quietly - almost never between strangers. Rush hour trains fill at random and most of the passengers will be strangers to each other. Consequently, there will be very little conversation between English people, if any. Other nationalities have different behaviours and boundaries, and are much more likely to speak loudly or to strangers.  If you have ever used the tube in London, you will have seen this yourself. People enter, then immediately begin 'boundary' behaviours and shut themselves off from everyone else. It is totally different on the New York subway....

Conversation would only be expected when most 'strangers' had left, and 'regulars' who might know each other because they use the same stations or live in nearby streets remain. Then, there might be some cursory conversation.

It cannot be interpreted to mean that the train was full of foreigners, merely that most nationalities are not as reclusive or insistent on personal privacy and seclusion as are the English. Foreigners (especially foreign visitors not conditioned to the 'English ways' of stony silence) are just more likely to be heard...

It is, of course, completely xenophobic in the true sense of the word to be "uncomfortable" just because you hear foreign languages spoken. 

In the same speech as this episode was mentioned, he referred to parts of the UK becoming "unrecognisable". That is hardly likely to relate to EU citizens, of course, since it is rather hard to tell if someone is Polish, Dutch, French, German or even Spanish or Italian just by sight. Mr Farage is also (presumably) not too bothered by white Europeans anyway, given the fact he is married to a German! It obviously refers to more racially diverse groups, where the differences are immediately obvious and where they may make their presence felt in other ways (Mosques, for example or the way they dress). It is a thinly veiled, but highly racist comment.

[doreen1]

Doreeen - I was asking Jodee whay he said good riddance if Scotland did vote for independence.  Never did get a reply.

I was also pointing out to him that Scotland did not "join" the United Kindom, and was not under duress.  English attempts to subject Scotland in the 13th and 14th centuries had failed, miserably.  The Scots did not "roll over" as Jodee suggested.  Scotland created the United kingdom when Scottish King James the First agreed to accede to the thrones of Ireland, England and Scotland  The United Kingdom was formed by the Union of the Crowns of Ireland, England and Scotland in March 1603.

Political union came later in 1707 with the Parliament of England ratifying the Treaty of Unionof1706.  Not TOO hard to get the history correct, really.

I hold no particular brief for Scottish independence, but I am not about to let someone  bend the facts of history to suit his own agenda.

Hi NormanM,   :handshake
Thanks for that. I did understand what you were asking, but as you say yet no reply. I don't mind someone informing me with facts , but get them right for goodness sake.

[Cielos]

Better ask old Farage and the bloke accusing him RR, only they can help, unless of course you were on that bus or train ??? or, you are Nigel Farage and know different ???
What baffles me RR, is what you are trying to prove by desperately trying to score points during the discussion? here they are, lots of people all agreeing that leaving the EU would be at least, not a good move. I've seen no racist remarks, just people telling it how it is. Some may like to get out of the EU, but they may have good reason and put their points over well.
Is it just that you need to dominate some topics with such vehemence that you lose sight of the theme, or you can't see the wood for the trees?
Please try to keep your response brief, my attention is on the wane, Oh and please try to keep insults out of it, it's not big and it's not clever. :tiphat:

PS If I was there, I would give you a great big hug, maybe even a little kiss :luv: then we would be great friends :handshake

webejamin the peacemaker      

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[sailor]

Very well put Webe.
Succinct and gently administered, but will heed be taken I ask myself.

Regards  :tiphat:

[webejamin]

Better ask old Farage and the bloke accusing him RR, only they can help, unless of course you were on that bus or train ??? or, you are Nigel Farage and know different ???
What baffles me RR, is what you are trying to prove by desperately trying to score points during the discussion? here they are, lots of people all agreeing that leaving the EU would be at least, not a good move. I've seen no racist remarks, just people telling it how it is. Some may like to get out of the EU, but they may have good reason and put their points over well.
Is it just that you need to dominate some topics with such vehemence that you lose sight of the theme, or you can't see the wood for the trees?
Please try to keep your response brief, my attention is on the wane, Oh and please try to keep insults out of it, it's not big and it's not clever. :tiphat:

PS If I was there, I would give you a great big hug, maybe even a little kiss :luv: then we would be great friends :handshake

webejamin the peacemaker      

[ramblarider]

RR you have (as Dave22 has pointed out) missed the important point which is that for much of his journey English was not being spoken! Not like you to miss that RR! As you are normally a stickler for pedantry!   
[/quote]

No, I did not miss that.

Quite the opposite. I noted it carefully.

So - anyone care to take a wild guess at why this little scenario is not quite what it appears to be?

[bobthelook]

When Farage was accused the other night of saying that he "felt uncomfortable on a bus or train in London because it was full of foreigners" he said "yes I do" now there's no getting out of that is there.

Nothing at all about that story strikes you as odd? It was a train, by the way. Not a bus.

RR you have (as Dave22 has pointed out) missed the important point which is that for much of his journey English was not being spoken! Not like you to miss that RR! As you are normally a stickler for pedantry!   

[NormanM]

Doreeen - I was asking Jodee whay he said good riddance if Scotland did vote for independence.  Never did get a reply.

I was also pointing out to him that Scotland did not "join" the United Kindom, and was not under duress.  English attempts to subject Scotland in the 13th and 14th centuries had failed, miserably.  The Scots did not "roll over" as Jodee suggested.  Scotland created the United kingdom when Scottish King James the First agreed to accede to the thrones of Ireland, England and Scotland  The United Kingdom was formed by the Union of the Crowns of Ireland, England and Scotland in March 1603.

Political union came later in 1707 with the Parliament of England ratifying the Treaty of Unionof1706.  Not TOO hard to get the history correct, really.

I hold no particular brief for Scottish independence, but I am not about to let someone  bend the facts of history to suit his own agenda.

[Cielos]

The last time I travelled on the Tube, I felt unsafe and uncomfortable.  There were several Eastern Europeans walking up and down the carriage, aggressively asking for money (yes they looked like Roma) wandering around with babies who were Capol'd up to their eyeballs.


Then I changed to the Picadilly line, going through West London - full of people in full camo (niqab) and variations on the same theme.  Didn't hear one word of English.

Would I have felt uncomfortable if I'd been on a trip to UAE or similar?  Probably not.

In my own country, yes I did.  It felt alien and I was in the minority.

If feeling like that makes me the R word, then I think there's a lot of us in the UK

[Dave22]

Mr Farage said: "I got the train the other night, it was rush hour, from Charing Cross, it was the stopper going out. We stopped at London Bridge, New Cross, Hither Green.

"It wasn't until after we got past Grove Park that I could actually hear English being audibly spoken in the carriage. Does that make me feel slightly awkward? Yes.

[ramblarider]

Does that translate to "I haven't got a clue. I cannot see anything remotely suspicious about Mr. Farage's story. It all rings true to me?"

[webejamin]

I must apologise RR, I hadn't been aware of your condition until I was informed this morning, hope you get sorted  :tiphat:

[ramblarider]

Pretend you are Inspector Morse (or Kavanagh Q.C., if you prefer) for a while and this is a witness statement. It will come to you.

[webejamin]

When Farage was accused the other night of saying that he "felt uncomfortable on a bus or train in London because it was full of foreigners" he said "yes I do" now there's no getting out of that is there.

Nothing at all about that story strikes you as odd? It was a train, by the way. Not a bus.

Another mystery ??? what bit of that "story" was odd? did you see the programme? enlightenment please RR. could have been something I missed ???

[ajc]

when i lived in Spain a majority of the british living around us would give reasons why they left the uk , and yet on this forum alot of probably those
same people are now defending the same political parties that created what they complained about, so do i assume some people dont really know what they want ? , the weather is excluded from this observation,

[doreen1]

Nice one Jodee!  But really, is that the kind of party you want in charge of your country?

Good riddance you say.  Why?

Have a look at what Ramblarider is telling you, for goodness sake!

a) I didn't say anything about parties in charge of any particular countries - I responded to your "passport and we are out of here" idea.
b) The Scottish people have never wanted to be part of a union - it was forced on them by wars many years ago and now it mainly translates into sport rivalry. Shame the Irish didn't roll over the same way eh?

John Lennon - Keep Ireland for the Irish and all that, listen again to Sometime in New York City and replace the country names with your own.
i.e If you've got the luck of the Irish you'd wish you were English instead

Scotland has never had it so good, not since it joined the UK.  :handshake

Ok , I have read this post ten times, my husband has read it and neither of us can understand what you are trying to say, sorry.

Can you explain please.

[ramblarider]

When Farage was accused the other night of saying that he "felt uncomfortable on a bus or train in London because it was full of foreigners" he said "yes I do" now there's no getting out of that is there.

Nothing at all about that story strikes you as odd? It was a train, by the way. Not a bus.

[webejamin]

The only time I use public transport is on the odd time I go into London. it's only a few minutes by train and beats driving up there. My family only use buses and trains and they are always seeing muggings and steaming, some have been robbed themselves, always by ethnics. Is it any wonder that people are wary!!!

[zilnor]

Here in Burton on Trent, I regularly use the local bus service. I have no complaints whatsoever. My route runs buses every fifteen minutes Monday to Saturday and once an hour on Sundays. And being a senior citizen, it costs me nothing !! But if I had to travel in the rush hour perhaps I would have a different opinion ?  I have to use public transport due to having my licence revoked by DVLA, following eye injuries resulting from a  road traffic accident in Spain.

[gus-lopez]

webe , you must be using a bus pass as no one in there right mind would want to use , or afford to get on, public transport ! :lol:
I've only ever been on one bus & one train since passing my driving test.

[bobthelook]

Ooo  - - -be careful webj you'll have all the self-righteous brigade accusing you of racism!  You know the folk -  who want to hang draw and quarter Jeremy Clarkson for saying - - oh but he didn't even say it did he - well let's not let the facts get in the way of a good story!  :whistle:

[webejamin]

I think BTL that nobody can answer anything with a straight answer. Farage is aiming direct and only one way, whereas his political opponents are stuck in the old way of ducking and diving. most of what they say can be twisted in the future to suit. Whenever they are pulled about something they promised or said, they can squeeze out of it, it's the old spin.
When Farage was accused the other night of saying that he "felt uncomfortable on a bus or train in London because it was full of foreigners" he said "yes I do" now there's no getting out of that is there. Now, I'm not a UKIP supporter, but I feel the same as he does on a bus or train, why is that? I've never felt uncomfortable on public transport anywhere else in the world ??? 

[bobthelook]

It seems a pity to me that other party's politicians, not least the main Party leaders do not seem to have the charisma, personality or ability to put forward their pro EU points with clarity and enthusiasm. They either seem to avoid the issues or appear to be very poor in their knowledge / debating skills. Most of them are intelligent and well educated so why are they not focussing on the EU plus points - Lets have some proper debating on TV  where the masses can listen to constructive reasons to support a 'stay in the EU vote'.  The main reason that UKIP appears to have such support is simply because Farage is such an effective speaker and debater.  Whether it is Question Time or Farage's TV annihilation of Clegg,  he just doesn't appear to have any substantial competition! There will be many able politicians who could easily oppose him with sensible argument but why don't they come out of the woodwork!? Cameron and Milliband are shooting them selves in the foot each week they ignore these issues and allow Farage's credibility to increase  (without him UKIP would probably disappear into the backwaters of politics). 

[NormanM]

Actually, Jodee, Scotland never joined the UK.  The UK did not exist.  Secondly, they were not forced by wars, they chose to form a United Kingdom with England, the first King of the "UK" being King James the Sixth of Scotland and First of England, political union coming much later. Get your facts right please.

[jodee]

Nice one Jodee!  But really, is that the kind of party you want in charge of your country?

Good riddance you say.  Why?

Have a look at what Ramblarider is telling you, for goodness sake!

a) I didn't say anything about parties in charge of any particular countries - I responded to your "passport and we are out of here" idea.
b) The Scottish people have never wanted to be part of a union - it was forced on them by wars many years ago and now it mainly translates into sport rivalry. Shame the Irish didn't roll over the same way eh?

John Lennon - Keep Ireland for the Irish and all that, listen again to Sometime in New York City and replace the country names with your own.
i.e If you've got the luck of the Irish you'd wish you were English instead

Scotland has never had it so good, not since it joined the UK.  :handshake