Interesting view of UKIP

[webejamin]

Getting back to the topic, sort of. It's still going on in Tower Hamlets and is this a sign of things to come?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/local-elections/10861289/Support-Tower-Hamlets-mayor-or-risk-riots-says-advisor.html


http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/lutfur-rahman-adviser-accept-tower-hamlets-election-results-or-violence-will-spill-onto-streets-9450680.html

[gus-lopez]

Ramblarider, you side-stepped my point about cars:

If you are looking to save lives, let's look at another big killer in the USA.
There are an average of 33 gun homicides per day across the USA.
There are 90 people killed in road accidents in the USA.
Maybe we should ban use of motor vehicles.

My whole point is that we do not ban motor cars, because they are not a risk in themselves, what causes the risk is untrained handling, criminal driving, and negligence and sometimes faulty equipment.
As for the USA, the right to bear arms is written into the constitution, it's not about to go away.
Why shouldn't the law abiding people be allowed to have arms in their own homes to protect themselves against the criminals who want to break in, steal, rape or murder?

Err no, that 33 figure is correct but only relates to gun homicides &,like  politician speak , it is plucked from the statistics to supposedly make the argument convincing.  In 2010 guns took the lives of 31,076 Americans in homicides, suicides and unintentional shootings. Some 85 per day.

http://smartgunlaws.org/gun-deaths-and-injuries-statistics/

So not much different to the cars.
If we could increase the rate to that in the UK on both cars & guns we would have some hope of clearing some of the scum out. 175/day.  :clap:You can only dream. >:D

I've got to agree with you on the right  of people to be allowed to have arms in their own homes to protect themselves against the criminals.

[Roger]

The Second Amendment of the United States Constitution reads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

There has been many claims that this does not mean the right of an individual to bear arms, but was intended to protect the right to form armed militia to defend the populace against dictatorial monarchs, the very type of regime that many of the US colonists were fleeing in Europe at the time.

Ironically in the days of the Wild West very few US citizens carried guns.
It is a relatively new thing.

In the US, as elsewhere, it is illegal to drive a car while under the influence of alcohol or drugs.
But your can be insane or unstable and have a semi automatic weapon.

Still its their country, so they can run it as they want.

[webejamin]

Don't worry Hogsy me boy, fink we can hold em off between us ;D beats fishin ;D

[zilnor]

Hogs     :tiphat: :clap: :clap: :lol:

[ramblarider]

Not quite.... I worked in South Africa for a time back in the early 90's, including Kwa-Zulu Natal, and unfortunately, guns were everywhere... we always carried one as car-jackings were happening all the time. Take a wrong turn and you could end up dead. Fortunately, never had to use it.

[webejamin]

 ;D Good to see you've been on the old google RR, be buyin yerself a shooter next, wiv magnum ammo :o Better keep yer head down Hogs :o gonna be lead flyin :o :tiphat: ;D

[ramblarider]

RR

Why do I want a hand gun ? (if I did) Oh I would really like to compete in Hand Gun Sporting Competitions.  A legitimate reason but no I have to travel to France or any other EU country to take part in my chosen sport ! So why are UK Citizens being treated differently to any other EU Citizen ?

Hogs  :tiphat:

Presumably you do not need a semi-auto for that, do you? Or multiple mags? Or hundreds of rounds of hollow-point ammunition?

Don't you just use a precision long-barreled weapon? Typically a .22 rimfire?

I do agree with you on this one in that the UK has gone too far. It would seem perfectly sensible to permit those type of weapons to carefully vetted individuals, and preferably securely kept at licensed premises.

That is quite different from permitting individuals to keep a Glock handy, however.. with a few spare mags and a stockpile of ammo in the house.....

[webejamin]

Mind you byrney, when I started my last job, the first thing I was shown was the expenses system and how to use and abuse it :o but of course I never did

[byrney]

That's vitally important Webe.  It makes sure that they know the rules and therefore prevents them from fiddling their expenses. :whistle:

[webejamin]

Of course :whistle:
I had a friend who was and still is an MP, he told me that the very first thing a new MP is shown, is how to get into the expenses system. :tiphat: 

[zilnor]

And we better claim a few expenses ! , :lol:
,

[webejamin]

zilnor, were doing so well and we've only been doing it an hour or so. I think it's time we give ourselves a little slice of the pie :whistle: I think that's how it works innit? :whistle:
Just kiddin ;)

[Cielos]

Far more relevant to look at gun-related deaths.

Quite right that guns do not kill people = but you can kill a whole lot more people faster and easier with a semi-auto than you can with a kitchen knife, despite the fact that both can be lethal in the wrong hands.

If you are looking to save lives, let's look at another big killer in the USA.
There are an average of 33 gun homicides per day across the USA.
There are 90 people killed in road accidents in the USA.
Maybe we should ban use of motor vehicles.

Banning guns in the UK didn't save any lives. It is the criminal use of firearms which is a problem, not the law abiding people. All the post Dunblane knee jerk reaction did was to remove firearms from law abiding citizens.
It left firearms in the hands of the police, government, armed forces and, yes, you've guessed - criminals.

:clap: :clap:

The horse has already bolted and it is now easy to buy a gun in the UK.  The only people that have restricted access now are law abiding citizens.

To say that restricting access to guns makes for a safer place just doesn't wash now - the people with the guns at the moment tend to be criminals and terrorists or nutcases.

Look at Dunblane or any other "mass" killing - if just one person on the premises had had a gun and known how to use it - think how many innocent lives could have been saved.

[zilnor]

Good idea Webe !  I rarely quote statistics as they can be manipulated by whoever is trying to get their point across !
I would redistribute some of the billionaires wealth (who needs a billion to live a life of luxury) on the condition that the people who received it had to buy a new house, a new Brit made vehicle, new Brit made furniture etc etc thereby kick starting the economy. Loads of jobs would be created and Unemployment would fall dramatically
They would all be paying taxes , then interest rates can rise to help savers and the OAPs (like me )
Minimum wage would increase by at least 30 per cent.
Dream on !   Ha Ha !  :lol:   :crazy: 
F

[webejamin]

I think we should start a new political party zilnor, then we can campaign to relieve the 100 or more billionaires in the UK of their wealth :o Then give them all back 1 billion each ;D it's only fair :whistle: then share out the other 200billion between us all. except of course anyone earning over £100k ;D
Waddya fink ;D :tiphat:

PS no statistics please  

[zilnor]

I also meant to say that if we saved money by not being in the EU then it would possible to raise the minimum wage by a reasonable amount.

[zilnor]

Distribution of wealth is the big problem all over the world Webe! Never has been fair, and never will be. I am the first to say that the minimum wage should be raised, but which political party will be brave enough to raise it above the basic 6.31 an hour (apologies if I have mis-quoted)   
This I one of the reasons why so many people who will only ever earn a modest wage, prefer to live off the state especially if they have children.

Radical changes are needed.

[Tetley]

Well Tetley no problems there then get Ed in he will sort out all the problems out but at a cost ;)

just false boom no3.... 2016 to 2019 ,im looking forward to the 2018 housing crash ,so i can buy me pensioner bunglow in cornwall........... ;D

[webejamin]

The photo in the Standard showing only three white people, is an indication of the extent of the immigration problem in some areas of the UK. And some of those non-white people will have been born here, making them legitimate British citizens. I feel qualified to make a comment on this issue, as I lived in the London Borough of Tower Hamlets for over ten years.  I now await the accusations of being a racist !!
The recent EU elections have demonstrated a general anti-EU position.  Yes, we know that only a third of the electorate could be bothered to get off their a---s and vote, but IMO that could show that they are not bothered anyway. Pathetic !!  :head

Nobody can say that there's any racism about the event zilnor, or my post, or your comment, the whole point about it, is the "culture" of voting in Tower Hamlets is strangely different to the rest of the UK, it certainly wasn't like that when I was a kid, I can't imagine why ??? 

[webejamin]

Just about says it all zilnor. I think the trouble with the UK and EU, is that the "less" well off are still getting "even less" well off, while the fat cats are getting "more" well off. If the fat cats are feeling good, then the country is doing well. The distribution of wealth is what's wrong with the UK and I don't see it changing soon.
We can sit and watch the news on the telly and it goes from discussing how many billionaires live in the UK and the cost of buying a house going through the roof, to a report that the minimum wage will rise by 19 pence an hour. Then it goes on to telling us how much it costs us to be in the EU > Is it any wonder that people are feeling a little pi#@ed off :tiphat:  

[NormanM]

Well Hogs, it is because the UK has the right to make it's own laws - that is what the law is different. And that is what the anti-EU brigade want.  Having cake and eating it come to mind.

Oh, and RR, why don't you stop using logical arguments and verifiable facts.  Lots of people here cannot handle that!

[zilnor]

Tetley,   Jabba did mention prices !

I have been back in England for a full year. I hear much discontent with the EU, mainly to do with people  feeing they are being dictated to by the fat cats at Brussels, and they resent the huge amounts of money many of them  receive.  Most folks accept that we are stuck with the EU but insist that far more favourable terms must be negotiated, and it should revert to a trading union, not the political state it has become. I agree.  :wave

[webejamin]

Nobody can just own a gun in the UK (NI different) There are strict rules about fire arms certificates, where and how it's kept, type of ammunition, type of gun. All that happened after Dunblane, was the politicians thought they would appease the people by banning certain types of gun ownership. This was so that if someone "lost it" in the future, they might not do, so many, so quickly. Nobody can just "carry a gun" nobody can just "buy a gun" they never could. Using the likes of the US or anywhere else to compare events is pointless and silly, nobody is looking for the UK to be a place where "anyone" can own or use a gun, that's a daft suggestion, owning a gun is not "easy" in the UK, never was, but getting hold of an illegal gun is. :tiphat:    

[jabba the cat]

Well Tetley no problems there then get Ed in he will sort out all the problems out but at a cost ;)

[Tetley]

Jabba Hull must be diffrent,all i ever hear is council tax,food prices and the biggest one gas prices,it used to be asylum seekers but a lot have moved on.

:tiphat:

[jabba the cat]

Well I'm off back to the UK for week and I bet you any money they wont be talking about how good the EU is it will be about the same things whenever i go back to see friends and family. It starts with sport,prices then goes to immigration,Racism,lefties,state benefits and Politicians and no amount of bullshit supplied by the supporters of the one state Union the EU the BBC and the media will ever change peoples opinion on those subjects as much as they would like to censor it. :tiphat:

[zilnor]

The photo in the Standard showing only three white people, is an indication of the extent of the immigration problem in some areas of the UK. And some of those non-white people will have been born here, making them legitimate British citizens. I feel qualified to make a comment on this issue, as I lived in the London Borough of Tower Hamlets for over ten years.  I now await the accusations of being a racist !!
The recent EU elections have demonstrated a general anti-EU position.  Yes, we know that only a third of the electorate could be bothered to get off their a---s and vote, but IMO that could show that they are not bothered anyway. Pathetic !!  :head

[sallyb]

Webejeman I think you will find that signing up to the Human Rights act is a condition of the EU.  RR he is ONE we managed to deport what about the 100's of others who claimed it was against their human rights to be deported and we could do nothing. That's it I will not respond to you anymore.

[ramblarider]

On point 1 Ramblarider, Neither can you, when you use it to support the ban and ownership of firearms in the UK,

And on point 2,

You say worldwide figures support your position regarding easier access to firearms ending up being used to kill people, again not quite true as the don't get many incidents of this type in Switzerland for example where every male up to the age of 30 or 34 if previously conscripted as an officer, is required to maintain, train and possess Milspec fully automatic rifles and hand pistols as part of their commitment to the Swiss Militia. All of which are UNLICENSED until the individual retires from the militia where they, if kept, are required to be licensed as a personal firearm.  

To conclude no amount of political knee jerk reaction by legislators can ever solve the issue as the one thing they can never legislate for are the actions of a mentally unstable individual whether that individual is in possession of an illegal or legal firearm.  

Hogs

Switzerland has a fairly unique system. They also have strict controls in place as regards storage, licensing, psychological state and other measures which certainly help. Despite this, they still have a far, far higher rate of gun killings than does the UK (3.84 per 100,000 vs 0.25 per 100,000), so I do not really see them as much of an advert for gun ownership.....

Unstable individuals will exist everywhere. If, however, you make it easy for them to acquire (say) semi-automatic handguns or assault rifles, then it is nonsensical to believe that there will not be more such people using them!

The latest mass killer in California was a "law abiding citizen" with legally held weapons...

You have to ask "why do you feel you need a handgun?"  What for, exactly?

Given that the UK has one of the worlds lowest gun-related death statistics in the entire world, what is the purpose of making them more widely available? What would it achieve?

[byrney]

Spot on RR.

Can you imagine what it would be like if everyone posting to this Forum was allowed to own a gun? :whistle:

[ramblarider]

Banning guns in the UK didn't save any lives. It is the criminal use of firearms which is a problem, not the law abiding people. All the post Dunblane knee jerk reaction did was to remove firearms from law abiding citizens.
It left firearms in the hands of the police, government, armed forces and, yes, you've guessed - criminals.

Have you got any, direct, personal experience of living in a country where guns are everywhere and just about anyone can buy one? It is all very well talking about "law abiding" citizens, but you know what? Those "law abiding" citizens sometimes lose it... get into an argument over using a lawnmower a bit too early on a Sunday, for example.... go into the house, get the gun... and shoot the neighbour dead. Then shoot themselves. Or, you have one of the "good guys"  (retired cop) who gets annoyed at someone texting. Loses it. Shoots the person dead... then you get the mass mayhem. Someone gets fired and decides to do some firing themselves. This is known as "going postal" as there have been numerous instances at post offices.In April, an ex-employee with mental health problems killed 4 people and wounded 16 others at a military base... he was "law abiding" too. Until then. So too was the kid who took his mother's guns to Sandy Hook school. So - drop the "law abiding" nonsense as it does not stack up at all. When you have someone sufficiently stressed, angry or suffering from mental health problems there is no such thing anymore.

How can you possibly say "banning guns in the UK save any lives"? You cannot know whether it did or didn't!

What figures from all over the world show again and again is that the easier access to firearms is, the more likely they are to end up being used to kill people. This is so self-evident it should hardly need pointing out.

[ramblarider]

We are all harping on about UKIP but there was a mass anti EU vote across Europe...... the biggest point for me is the Human Rights Act which stops the UK from deporting convicted terrorists to name but one.

Nothing whatever to do with the EU...no connection at all.... and it does not stop you deporting terrorists, either..... Abu Hamza is now facing around 3,000 years in a US Supermax.

So, if this was a big "anti EU" point, then voting against the EU based on it was totally wrong.

[ramblarider]

It's not guns that kill people, it is people who kill people. I used to go shooting with my father when I was younger, and I didn't kill anyone at all, nor did he.

First, no-one "smeared" UKIP. It is their policy to legalise handgun possession. Fact. No "smear".

Second, yes, statistics are counted differently in carious places - your chart includes cases where a "firearm" was "reported" to have been used. This includes imitation and air-guns....

Far more relevant to look at gun-related deaths.

Quite right that guns do not kill people = but you can kill a whole lot more people faster and easier with a semi-auto than you can with a kitchen knife, despite the fact that both can be lethal in the wrong hands.

[webejamin]

sallyb, I don't think the hooman rites act is the EUs baby :tiphat: