Housing Issue Update

[patriot]

carsons1947, my profile should have my email address. I can be contacted via that.

[carsons1947]

OK. I will be more precise if you wish. 

For years the V Pres has been regularly dropping in for a chat with Gordon and discussing relevant subject matter, including the help desk, etc etc.  He then reports back to the committee if there is anything of interest.

Sorry, but to me that is informal liaison.  Which is precisely the sort of chat over a cup of coffee once in a while that we have suggested.  The common goal in this case would be to try to keep from treading on each others toes all the time!!!!!

What would you prefer I call it if liaising isn't accurate enough?  Visit for a chat with?

I still think it strange that they can informally liaise/ visit for a chat with Gordon on a regular basis and yet refuse to do the same with us on the grounds that they can't because Gordon used to be part of the help desk.

[Titch]

Carsons

I really think you should be much more careful of your facts.   

To liaise implies to co-operate, consult and discuss to come to a common solution. FACT: The AUAN has listened to and discussed matters with GC (along with many other people/groups) but never has there been any relationship between the AUAN and GC that could be described as 'liaising'. 

Perhaps you have got the groups mixed up?

Anyway, this thread is 'Housing Issue Update'......not 'who supports GC', and 'who doesn't'.....surely?

Titch

[andie]

to be fair this is a side issue,were talking 1000,s of  effected homes, sticking  a small Brit  builders into the court system wile the" big bank backed "folks role abought in thair new mercs & BM,s will acheive nothing on the legality front wich at the end of the day,is what we are all here discusing .

most folks woudent give a knack if thay lived next door to Lord Lucan as long as thay all had the correct paperwork & mains services  for thair homes .

S  :tiphat:

[carsons1947]

Refreshing posting Knowall. I know quite a few of Gordon's clients like him and appreciate him standing by them. However, there are those that don't as well. That's how it is with developers. In my book he is innocent until proven guilty. The same applies to mayors, architects, lawyers and all the others.

Digi. Many people I speak to do understand the cultural changes being responsible for a lot of what happened.  There are crooks out there without any doubt, look at what happened to you, but many developers IMO were just unqualified people trying to build a business and making a mess of it.  

Hogs. Fact not sniping.  The AUAN has been regularly liaising with Gordon for years. Now it cannot talk to us because Gordon used to be connected?

[Titch]

I'm sure there's far worse than Gordon Condrey. Those that 'cannot be named' spring to mind.

Titch

[andie]

"The problem is that the Spanish politicians do not get it. They really do believe that we are all rich, and they have said repeatedly that it is nothing to do with them"

so in your opinion Roger ,whats the next course of action, bearing in mind your above statment ?

S  :tiphat:

[Roger]

The amnesty route may be the only solution in some towns where it seems impossible to legalise houses within the current law.
Realistically this is nothing to do with the EU, and will take a very long time through the Spanish system, if ever.

I am only concerned with Arboleas.
I am sure that the problem of Rustic land will be resolved within the next 6 months, with the approval of the present range of amendments to the Urban Plan.
HOWEVER that is not the whole problem. In fact it is where the problems will start for many.
Because of the delay people are facing real problems in getting the documentation. It is going to cost them money they do not have, when they have an all-inclusive contract with the builder.
They also have problems in getting supply contracts because of a lack of documentation.
At the Help Desk we are working on this problem.

The problem is that the Spanish politicians do not get it. They really do believe that we are all rich, and they have said repeatedly that it is nothing to do with them, it is a problem between the owners and their builders.

I will soon be posting a report of the latest set of meetings in Arboleas which will demonstrate this.

[andie]

Maybe the powers that be should look at an amnesty and draw a line under what is done, except of course where property is built on an unsafe plot. Perhaps they may even save face by going to the EU with a proposal of an amnesty and negotiate funding to help build the infrastructure that is required..... Just a thought!!! :tiphat:

CORRECT

plus , most brits payed for infastructer here anyway wile working through our taxes in the uk ,through the Brit goverment contrebuting to EU funds.
(apparently we have another 8 bill to put into Greece now  808  808 )
an Amnisty is the only way forward,sooner rather than later if poss. (please )

S  :tiphat:

[Geminis]

Maybe the powers that be should look at an amnesty and draw a line under what is done, except of course where property is built on an unsafe plot. Perhaps they may even save face by going to the EU with a proposal of an amnesty and negotiate funding to help build the infrastructure that is required..... Just a thought!!! :tiphat:

[andie]

personally
i think a lot of the building co,s got court in the middle of all this econamic suiside,most built very good houses,and i dont dought that if the govement got its act together and rolled paperwork, houses would be being built & sold to -day with the added bonus of a boyant re sale market and employment

as it stands now everybody is on a loose loose,and as for sending small builders to court its just smoke & mirrows to deflect & delay the solution wich thay despratly need to find SOON

S    :tiphat:

[andie]

i suppose for those who must   :wave 1 idea would be iF 2000 brits join the psoe,party and another 2000 join the pp,that should more or less cover all sides localy.
then thay can just make polyici up  and  input both head offices  at provincal level    ;)  :wave  S

[digifidd]

Digi
Certainly there is distrust of developers. However, I find that most individuals are well able to distinguish between developers and crooks.

I wish it were that easy.  We were shafted by a small time developer who was to be our close neighbour.  The whole family were very welcoming, helpful and considerate at the beginning until they had all of our money from the sale, so we were devastated when they turned out to be no better than the big operators in the area, had sold us an illegal property and effectively leaned on our lawyer to write a contract in their favour.  
They considered us friends apparently - what a way to treat a friend is all that I can say!

Unfortunately no one wears a sign saying "crook", some conmen are just better at hiding their true colours than others.  That makes them good at what they do.  This is a general observation and in no way connected to anyone mentioned in previous posts.

[Rod]

Ditto to Hogs.
Only the Spanish can sort out the mess. It may be necessary to have some UK influence to put over our point of view but only from the inside.

[andie]

Good Morning Snr Hogs  :tiphat:

i think you make valid points,my main point is that really this is a self inflicted (on ALL EUcitz,s  here) situation,"managed" locally & provincally by the poli tics types.

my veiw from day 1 is that,to sort this mess out,it will come down to "folks as one",and not folks on a "must get locally elected at all costs crew.

i also further STRONGLY  belive that a local regime change will be a disaster because it will give provincal goverment to do at will its will.

as i understand it thair are hundreds of homes locally that are in a very "delicate legall situation"wich could be further complicated by a non psoe party" finding its way around" after the elections,with a not very happy disen franchised provincal goverment.

i think we all need to be curfull what some of the local brits "wish for "

where the help desk got it wrong is by mixing the politics ,and "been seen" to be some sort of  provincal goverment
PR spin department,geared up against the legally organised folks on the streets ,whome after all have acheived far greater sucess in bringing some very big players in,ie uk ministers & euro mp,s

S  :tiphat:

[HogRider]

And the one thing that many are choosing to forget or ignore is the simply FACT that AUAN is a private association representing the interests of its paid up members and any information or progress it makes whilst representing those interests is the business of its Committee and Members !

If it chooses to share any information and progress then that is their business !  

Likewise whilst the Help Desk is primarily there to assist Arboleas Residents with the trials and tribulations of the area and liaising with the Town Hall to get things done it cannot demand meetings with private associations and mayors of other Town Councils and especially not 'Get into Bed' with individuals or Companies that may be the subject to investigation by the judiciary or the Police !  It sends entirely the wrong message out to the silent or non activist majority and can only distance the Help Desk further from the very people it was conceived to help !

I will only make this observation, when the new Mayor took Office he was being vaulted by some as a Knight in Shining Armour who was going to sort all the problems of the area.  Well quite frankly in my view he has not measured up to his promises but then he is a politician and all politicians tell you what you want to hear !

And if the 'usual suspects' continue to bash AUAN or anybody else who doesn't agree with their point of view then the Help desk and Roger will continue to be the subject of discussion topics elsewhere and until this 'tit for tat' point scoring stops nothing can be achieved.

Have you really questioned why there appears to be residents apathy prevailing in the Valley ?  May I suggest that you look at yourselves and you will probably answer your question !

Hogs Good Morning  :tiphat:  

[carsons1947]

Hi Lobo
Sorry about that but I did send you one. I don't know quite what I can do in the circumstances.  Is there some other way I can reach you?  I really do not understand what is and isn't possible with these machines.

[patriot]

carsons1947. It looks like the PM system isn't working correctly. You said you would PM me, if you did, I didn't get it.

[carsons1947]

Geminis.  Sorry I used the word retired, it is just the way I think of it.

I think that Roger has made it quite clear that Gordon is not part of the help desk anymore. He is still in business, although I believe he stopped being a developer quite a few years ago when the problems started to arise.

Digi
Certainly there is distrust of developers. However, I find that most individuals are well able to distinguish between developers and crooks.

Lobo.
Sorry, nothing arrived.

[pyewack]

what is it with Brits.....why cant we all work together for the common cause!!??

[patriot]

carsons1947. I have sent you a PM, could you confirm you have received it.
Many thanks

[digifidd]

As a general comment, there is a justifiable distrust of developers in the Almanzora Valley, whether British or Spanish, big or small.  Many of them have helped to cause a lot of the problems that people with illegal houses now find themselves in.

These kind of betrayals, both emotional and financial, are not easy to forget or forgive whilst justice and basic services are denied to many who have unwittingly fallen into their traps.

Any close involvement of a developer with a town hall (in any way) is going to cause scepticism and a worry that the old back slapping, money in the brown envelope days have not gone but have merely gone into hibernation.

Those who are genuinely trying to help will be condemned by association I'm afraid, despite the best of intentions. 

[Geminis]

Gordon had retired. 

Does this mean that Gordon no longer does the help desk anymore? Or just retired from business!

[carsons1947]

Titch
It is just one in a long series of anti help desk postings, as John and Julie politely call it 'badgering'.   I'm sorry if you can't see it for what it is.

No one asked the AUAN to work closely with the help desk. I believe the odd liaison meeting over a cup of coffee was the idea. 

If the AUAN can talk to the IU, the PSOE and the PP, then it can speak to a help desk. If it could meet us once it could have done so again from time to time.

I passed on a message to the AUAN that Gordon had retired.  Nothing changed.

I believe firmly in leaving the police to sort out the past whilst we do the best we can with what we have, especially in a small village where we have to live and work together.

[andie]

the problem is for all our well meaning folks (and possible  not so well meaning but obsorbed in local self intrest folks poltical and otherwise  )
is the help desk has "been seen" to  self imposed itself either intentaly or un intentaly into local / provincal politics.

this inturn in some cases,has been seen to undermine the efforts of the "legal anti demoltion street walk / meet folks" the result now being that our Brit poltical well meaning folks have lost creadability and whats worst naively allowed thair selfs to be embroyled in  "local fudel goverment" and all its shortcomings.

anybody here,whom thinks problems can be solved with  naive Brit politcal,s of any party is in cooko land,if you feel the need to vote my advise is to try to keep the local party matched to the provincal one,good or bad until everybody has mains services & correct papwork,and be prepared for a long wait ,and hopefully not having to spend to mutch money.

S  

[Titch]

Carsons

I see nothing insulting in Explorer's post on the other forum, perhaps a little criticism of Roger. I fear you are too sensitive on his behalf.

I admire Roger's wish to continue to work for the benefit of the people of Arboleas and hope that the information Roger gives out is the truth and not some version that the Mayor wishes to disseminate.  It seems, that at the moment, there are more difficulties coming to light and more frustrations. It is a pity that the plans were not fully explored within the consultation period-which was by some co-incidence in the summer holidays!!!! The Mayor, from Roger's recent remarks, seems not to have been as honest as he should have been and he is not as understanding of people's concerns as was first thought.

You know full well that the AUAN is apolitical and therefore Roger's connections with a developer precluded close co-operation. Explorer just said that the domain name  is still registered as the developer's company which is contrary to Roger's post. Although I see that Roger has now come back and explained that this is something he needs to check. He also has explained his involvement with Gordon Condrey who unfortunately is under investigation for illegal building, along with many other developers, I might add.

I also feel that if the Arboleasnow web-site contains some inaccuracies, they ought to be removed.  (But I'm not bothered about going back over old posts though-it's no good harping back over old grievances perceived or otherwise)BORING

The groups may not be able to work together BUT both are doing stirling work in their own ways and deserve our support in the coming months/years so that we can all benefit from their efforts. Alone we can do nothing.

What is needed is a lot of noise. Can you imagine all the Arboleas ex-pats queuing outside the town hall to check that they are on the voting register all on the same day, or on a rota basis.????  Nothing concentrates the mind as much as having to find large sums of money to pay for something that has already been paid for.  Fags and Booze may be cheap but paperwork certainly isn't and Spain thrives on paperwork.

Titch

Damp day in England but the bluebells are beautiful.  

[John n Julie]

Well Done Roger,
                          Yet again a truthful and well balanced response!Now will people stop badgering Roger who is trying his up most to get results for families affected by this " the Spanish curse " stop the accusations and only deliver facts! and forget the Chinese whispers, which only detract attention from the ongoing problems.
Believe me when I say if it were not for the likes of Roger and the other unpaid helpers at the help desk there would be an awful lot of expat chickens with no heads running around not knowing which direction to turn to.
I have not needed the assistance of the help desk but its nice to know its there when you want or need it, thanks to Roger and the team.
Regards
John :tiphat: :tiphat:

[Roger]

... contd.

When the Forum and Help Desk members had collected the anti demolition petition it was necessary to present it.
Gordon has a good long standing relationship with Pepe, Albox Mayor, and he arranged a joint meeting to discuss the petition, and then a meeting with Pepe and Luis Caparros to present the petition.
He is photographed at that meeting.
The Help Desk members attended both as members of the team which collected the petition signatures, and as an opportunity to ask Luis Caparros questions about the problems in Arboleas.

Recently Gordon and myself were interviewd by the Costa Almeria News. They wanted to speak to both of us so we attended at the same time.
In reality almost all the interview was with me.

Finally, apart from my ocassional visits to his office to collate information relating to the Data Base, which he still has, he has no relationship with the Help Desk.

[Roger]

In response to the question about my involvement with Gordon Condrey.
My first contact was December 2008 when I went to the Town Hall to register my house. Gordon's company had the contract to do the work. I made visits back about once a week to find out what was happening and to talk to people about their problems, which at that time I did not realise existed.
In March 2009 Gordon's work in the Town Hall finished, but I realised that peoples' problems had not gone away.
I therefore suggested that we continue the office as a Help Desk. Gordon arranged this with the new Mayor, Angel, who at the time I hardly knew.
Gordon continued to assist at the Help Desk until we had built up a team. He is no longer a member of the Help Desk team.
In June 2009 I realised that we needed a Web Site to give out information. Because I had no knowledge of this I asked Gordon if he knew someone he would help. He offered to set it up. At the time it was registered with his company, with the intention of changing it when the Help Desk was more established.
I thought it had been re-registered in my name, because I gave all the information to do so, but have now to check if that has in fact been done.

Initially Gordon assisted with the content but now all the information is supplied by me, and circulated to all the other members of the Help Desk.

Gordon is still completing the collation of the Data Base for the Town Hall. This is information the Help Desk needs to assist us in compiling the information for street names and house numbers, which we are doing in order that everyone can have a correct official address.
I therefore need from time to time to collate our information with his.


contd...

[carsons1947]

Yes Digi
I see that Roger has made a good reply, as he usually does. 

The trouble is, when a post is removed, no one has the chance to make up their mind do they? 

[digifidd]

Sorry Carsons, but one poster like Explorer does not make a forum.  Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion as long as it doesn't get personal.

Roger has answered on the other forum sensibly and with dignity and his postings on the other forum certainly come over to me that way.  I may not agree with all he says, but again that is an individual's prerogative.

Most people undoubtedly have the intelligence to read posts appropriately and should be afforded credit for doing so.  They are capable of making their own minds up.

With regards to the original thread in question that seems to have caused the contoversy, I didn't have an opportunity to read it and so cannot comment, however it may help to clear the air if the matter was dealt privately between the admin there and Roger so the matter can be laid to rest once and for all.

Only a suggestion.

[Mickey]

Needless to say Roger is one of the most honest people I have met over here. He should not have to tolerate these repeated insults.


Perhaps Roger could clarify his past and present working relationship with Gordon Condrey.  ???

[carsons1947]

Sorry Atnuj
Not a good idea to post on that forum still.  Roger made a civilized reply to the AUAN and immediately got ambushed by Explorer.  Nothing changes does it?  There seems no point in replying since even corrections are censored.

Needless to say Roger is one of the most honest people I have met over here. He should not have to tolerate these repeated insults.

[atnuj]

There is some good information available publicly from AUAN at

Almanzora Valley Forum > Abusos Urbanisticos Almanzora No! (AUAN) Official Board > AUAN Official Board (Moderator: AUAN_Official) > Information: Interview with Maura Hillen AUAN President 5th May 2010

Almanzora Valley Forum > Housing and Gardening > AUAN Question Board (Moderator: GM) > Requirements for a certificate of first occupation

Almanzora Valley Forum > Housing and Gardening > AUAN Question Board (Moderator: GM) > AUAN - Why is there reluctance to meet with the Arbloleas Help Desk?

[Roger]

People seem to be confused about two linked issues.

The first is to Urbanise all the rustic land which is built on.
In Arboleas this is not a problem, but it is taking far too long in my opinion.
In Albox it is a big problem.

The second is for the owners to get the correct and legal documentation.
This should not be a serious problem, except that the Town Hall officials do not seem to understand why the British are bothered about this. And they take the attitude that it is a problem between the British and the builder.
This is the issue which is causing us at the Help Desk a lot of concern. :head

As for the missing millions. This is all part of a National Police investigation. They have a very thick file about intimidation, bribery, corruption. Most people in Arboleas know about the many British who have made witness statements, and about the police raid last November.
I am happy that the police are doing a very thorough job.