Cantoria urbanisation costs

[Saffi]

Atnuj - if I understand correctly your area has a much higher density of housing plus there were business contributions, so the costs could thus be lower per property owner?  The area who were quoted 30 euros had only a few houses but a lot of road and distance to cover  to nearest mains services connection plus a rambla to reinforce, but that is not a finalised price yet anyway it is still ongoing.  I am high-lighting this as it is important for those affected to understand that costs will be done by urbanisation.......there is normally a guide of between X and Y but nothing is concrete, the price is the amount it is calculated will be needed to cover the costs divided by the number of properties/m2 land owned.  Town Halls are supposed to contribute to these costs but I understand there is no legal obligation on them to do so and since they are all effectively bankrupt they will argue it is the home owner who will benefit from the increase in property value (lets not open that debate) by becoming a fully urban property.  

Steve - your insinuations about people who post on this forum are really very offensive.  The law in Spain is crystal clear about this issue - it is the property owner who is legally obliged to pay if there is no other means of getting the infra structure done (ie it was not done at the correct time, rules change for an area and thus urban infra structure is now needed on land that was previously rustic, even if those houses have been there 20 years or more, if the powers that be re-designate the land and the infra structure thus becomes a requirement etc then put very simply all property owners have to pay).  This is not something aimed at northern europeans, it is simply the way things are done.  

I am not going to get dragged into a Roger style ongoing saga with you Steve, re-stating the same information and repeating facts, I simply refer to my previous posts on forming an official committee.  I would not advise following your suggestions and waiting to the last minute, as it can take a year to constitute yourselves properly and the Authorities are only obliged to take you seriously and afford you rights when you are legally constituted, otherwise you can simply be over-ruled. Atnuj is very clear in that their group existed a long while before the works actually took place and by virtue of your existence you may well find you have an impact anyway as the Town Hall will then know you mean business spanish style and have done your homework.    

On the subject of sewage your post is very interesting Atnuj, we know that EU law allows people to use a communal not individual septic tank but are you saying that houses on larger plots could therefore insist on this and the Authorities could not force the mains sewage option as my understanding from surveyors and others is that Spain opted for the mains sewage as the only acceptable choice for them........?

[andie]

folks  :wave
you need to luck at the bigger picture !!  :o

we have folks running around who whant electing (smoke & mirrowing and no this isnt a pop ! )

yew got devolpers with costs to pay,and millions in final payments outstanding due to non compltion (who want you to pay  ;)  ;) nudge nudge   :wave )

yew got a goverment who havent got a pipe to wee in,never mind start digging the roads up and building poo factorys.( fact )

yew got a paperwork system that dosent stack up ,ie casto. (fact )

this is going to take years to sort ,i was told on monday by a legal pro,  thay havent bothered regestering the houses for ibi as it will cost more to impliment the registration than the ibi collected !!!

its going to be a very long hall,even with Brit councilors ie Years  ! its all a load of smoke & mirrows,when the sewrage treatment plants are built and everybody has a mains pipe outside,thair" wall or urbanisation" then thats the time for a couple of 1000,effected residents to pop down the town hall to gether   :o  and start negotating costs,until then folks is just fortune telling at the fair !

the bigger worry is whats the fate of the houses on un ubanisable land  ??


S   :tiphat:

[atnuj]

Standard practice is to calculate these cost by per m2 of land you have, the greater the land you have the more it will be worth once fully urban.........and I am sorry to say that 11 euros per m2 of land is one of the cheapest I have heard about, other places have had quotes of 30 eerus plus per m2......

The ONLY control you have over these costs is to form an official Owners Association by urbanisation as you have the right in law to obtain your own quotes for works to be done and of course there is power in numbers.

A week or so ago, I posted some experiences of a total revamp 5 years ago on a coastal urbanisation in Puerto Rey - the figures were €4000 for an 800 M2 plot. That's €5 per M2. Now, there were some extenuating circumstances that make €11 believable today (but not €30).
Those circumstances were a couple of hotels (Mexico and Reina) that carried 30% of the cost. And 16% paid by the Vera Ayuntamiento. Plus inflation clearly.

But nowhere in this thread do I see the Ayuntamiento contribution stated - neither the business contributions.....

If I were a resident of Arboleas, Cantoria, or anywhere, or I were standing for election there, I'd be asking of the current administration:-

1. What is the Ayuntamiento throwing into the pot.
2. Why is a central sewage system needed (for 2 or 3 Grand per house you can put your own in - less if you 'group up').
3. Proof that residents are not paying for communal services for new commercial centers.

And - I'd be strongly supportive of Saffi's point made in the quote above - to repeat it

"The ONLY control you have over these costs is to form an official Owners Association by urbanisation as you have the right in law to obtain your own quotes for works to be done and of course there is power in numbers"

[JuanSheet]

Hola    I agree with steve on this one
weve  bought a house  which as far as we were aware included everything.
then 5 years later  we had to have a certificate of antiquity project for our new house,worth jack s..t
then  we paid for segregation,
Then the tax people said we under declared the price for the land we bought.and trebled the price of the land value,bearing in mind we bought a complete package ,i e  land and house,not seperately purchased.
Now we have people fussing over how much we may have to find to legalise  our properties---.
Theres no more money to be found.
If the builders got it wrong,  knowingly or otherwise, its their problem.
If the town halls  knew and allowed it then its them to blame
If theyve no money left then lock em up.
 ps roger    dont keep the slow drip feed of information  going  please put up or shut up

[andie]

personally i dont think anybody will push 1000,s into houses now worth jack ****  with or without paperwork , its a goverment cock up not the punter.

if i didnt know better i would think certain partys on here ,had an intrest in a cival engineering co or perhaps related to a builder with infrastructer issues   :o  the way thay keep banging on abought the home owner paying out .

as for the Arboleas poo pipes,thay will have to build a poo factory first to run the pipes to,unless thair going to fill the ramblers with even more clap,and the EU  wont like that one either.

just an observation   :tiphat:  S

[Saffi]

No, tarmac roads are part of the urban requirement, however I believe you can argue for solar powered street lights as there are grants available from EU for those apparently and it would take a lot longer to sort out so you MAY be able to get works done in stages.  Street lights per se are not optional, but you can negotiate for low glare lights as well.......  My understanding is that sewage is the most expensive part and that has to come first, there can be a year or two between that and then the tarmac road..........

[unclebob]

Saffi
In the unlikely event our development could agree on anything (asked where the sun would rise and we would get 50-odd arguments), and assuming it was formally registered, could we then agree (for example) that we did not want street lighting, and/or tarmac'd roads (as opposed to cheapergravelled surfaces)?
Thanks

[Saffi]

Totally agree, provided majority of residents are in agreement I think there is also flexibility on how you can share out the costs with fall back position of law saying per m2 of land, but per m2 of build would be a lot more fair, however the spanish will argue more land = more land to build on as once urban the minimum plot size is a lot less so those with more land should pay more towards their "investment" and it is generally this which prevails as most people cannot reach sufficient numbers in agreement.

[Saffi]

Standard practice is to calculate these cost by per m2 of land you have, the greater the land you have the more it will be worth once fully urban.........and I am sorry to say that 11 euros per m2 of land is one of the cheapest I have heard about, other places have had quotes of 30 eerus plus per m2......

The ONLY control you have over these costs is to form an official Owners Association by urbanisation as you have the right in law to obtain your own quotes for works to be done and of course there is power in numbers.

[unclebob]

Roger
You say that costs in various municipalities will vary, and that should come as no surprise. As far as I know for road tax, Basura, Albox is one of the more expensive areas (even less hope for us then). As far as I understand, Cantoria is at about the same position on the legalisation process as Arboleas (I think), so surely Arboleas has SOME idea of what the cost / meter squared is? You are at the hub of things, what is being said?

[Danno]

The potential costs are frightening, particularly if it is per square metre of land. A large proportion of illegal houses in Albox are built on 2500 sq m. I believe this was part of the fiddle at the time.  On 2500 sqm one could have a smallholding (for animals) and therefore a finca. Of course this is and was, not strictly true. I believe you had to make a living from the smallholding.

Surely the cost of the road should depend on the frontage of the plot rather than the plot size etc.

I think that serious consideration should be given to forming 'community of owners' and getting our own quotes.

I have no faith in the Mayors of the valley extracting money from infrastructure from the builders, even if the builders are still trading.

If we are not careful, we could be well and truely deep in debt to fund legalisation.

Danno

[digifidd]

I have started a new thread on your statement Roger that:

'The present councillors do not care about our problems because "we are all rich" '

I did not want to hijack this one.

[Roger]

The situation and therefore the costs in each area will vary.
However it is a serious cause of concern. we have had people who have had to pay for tarmac roads in order to get their Certificates of First Occupation.
Of course many people will believe that if they have these certificates they will be immune from urbanisation costs.
That is not true.
In Arboleas most of the houses are on Non Consolidated Urban Land.
Further work has to be done to consolidate this land. Who will pay the cost?
The biggest problem will be the connection to the sewage network. The Mayor has clearly stated that this cost is for the individual house owner. And of course there could be further costs for street lighting, pavements etc.

That is why we need representation in the Town Hall next May.
The present Councillors do not care about our problems because ¨we are all rich ¨
So if you are not registered to Vote and if you do not vote next May, don't complain when the bills start arriving.
And YES we will be offering an alternative, as we are often asked.

[unclebob]

http://www.almanzora-au.org/latest_auan_press_release_only.htm
(edited to include link to press release)

The press release (above) from the AUAN (PLEASE... no us and them comments), makes for depressing reading, and whilst many of those heavily involved, could almost see this coming, for many it will come as a huge shock, which is likely to apply similarly to other municipalities in the region. No one should think that Cantoria is a special case.
It emphasises the need for people to register on the padron and declare their interest to vote, as this is the only way to make politicians undrstand that it is unacceptable (well certainly for those of us who would find this an impossible cost to meet).
Equally, Safi's suggestion of Residents Associations forming now should be heeded, as again the politicians would see this as the public uniting and organising themselves, and in the event of builders 'disappearing' would allow them to regulate the costs of their infrastucture.

I have spoken before about sewerage costs, and the need to make politicians think hard about septic tanks, as a universally accepted practice, and one which would keep costs down. If Seville insist on it, then pressure should be brought on the EU to pressurise Spain to adopt this acceptable system.

I am sure there will be a lot to talk about on this subject of infrastructure costs. Roger has hinted at it, and the Press Release has given hard figures. It is up to the ex-pat community to make sure they are kept to a minimum.