BREXIT INFORMATION

[Greggers]

So getting back to my question, to ascertain if someone has overstayed the 90 days in every 180 day rule, are there going to be regular checks made on the information stored on passport chips other than when they may be presented at ports or airports when either entering or leaving a country..........which could be a long period of time in some cases. Just curious as to how this rule could be monitored/enforced strictly, unless regular scanning was done of passports (every 90 days) by authorities other than those at ports/borders or airports.

[Toyboy]

I travelled back and forth 4 times last year Santander Portsmouth. The customs and passport control  both sides have stepped up the security and document scrutiny in particular Santander cops. They search all trucks vans motor homes even my pickup and cars, 3 years ago nada not even passports just at check in, they check it twice now everyone. It’ll be interesting when I come out next month and after the transition period.

[elfangel2424]

It's easy to see why people would do it. Nothing ever happens to them. Never stopped at passport control. No fines and free NHS treatment,whenever you pop back to the UK.

[byrney]

"why would anyone want that stress of living here as an illegal immigrant" - because they are idiots, and love being criminals?

[Tetley]

from the NP Site


Article 55. Sanctions

The infractions typified in the previous articles will be sanctioned in the following terms:

Slight infractions with a fine of up to 500 euros.

Serious infractions with a fine of 501 to 10,000 euros. In the case contemplated in article 53.2.a) of this Law, in addition to the sanction indicated, the employer will also be obliged to defray the costs derived from the trip.

Very serious infractions with a fine from 10,001 to 100,000 euros, except the one provided for in article 54.2.b), which will be fine with a fine of 5,000 to 10,000 euros for each traveler transported or with a minimum of 750,000 euros flat, with Independence of the number of passengers transported. The one provided for in article 54.2.a) in relation to article 66.1 will be with a fine of 10,001 up to 100,000 euros for each trip made without having communicated the data of the people transported or having communicated them incorrectly, regardless of whether the Governing Authority may adopt the immobilization, seizure and confiscation of the means of transport, or the provisional suspension or withdrawal of the operating authorization.

The imposition of sanctions for administrative infractions established in this Organic Law shall correspond to the Government Sub-Delegate or the Government Delegate in the uniprovincial Autonomous Communities. When an Autonomous Community has been assigned powers in matters of initial work authorization of foreigners, the imposition of the sanctions established in this Law in the cases of infringement referred to in the following paragraph shall correspond to the Autonomous Community and shall be exercised by the Authority that the same determine, within the scope of its powers.

In cases classified as a minor violation of article 52.c), d) and e), serious of article 53.1.b), and 53.2.a), and very serious of article 54.1.d) and f), the sanctioning procedure shall be initiated by act of the Labor and Social Security Inspection, in accordance with the provisions of the sanctioning procedure for violations of the social order, corresponding to the imposition of sanctions on the authorities referred to in the previous paragraph.

[Roger]

Toyboy

First I have heard of the 30 euro charge.

The Town hall is trying to stop people coming off the padron.

All you have to do is ask for a Baja of your Padron.
I know someone who they refused to remove him.
He had to get his lawyer to phone the Town hall Secretary before they would remove him.

[Roger]

I am sure that some people will try to find ways of getting around the law.
They may succeed.
But in a world where everything is on Government computers, when they are checking everyone’s cross border movements for terrorist and health checks, where a police check point can access the main computer to check on you, why would anyone want that stress of living here as an illegal immigrant.

Many years ago, when the banks still kept your records in shoe boxes, and nothing was on computer, a friend who was living here illegally had the misfortune to die.
This presented his friends and family with a massive problem.
What to do with the body of someone who did not exist.
They had to make false statements to the authorities, and got a friendly Notary to not ask too many questions,

Lots of things can happen which you have not planned for.
Play by the rules and be able to relax and enjoy life.

[Toyboy]

Roger, I tried to get my name off the padron, there was a form to fill in asking why and when I was leaving the country and other things + 30â,¬. I didn’t bother.

[Roger]

The 90 days is not for Spain, it is for the whole of the EU, so popping into France would not change anything.
Also if driving you have to count the 90 days into your travel time, allowing possibilty of break downs, illness on route etc.

[Lynden]

Right Toyboy it is 90 days in any 180, so you can’t just nip to Gib for the day. Last time I was in Gib they definitely checked my passport. With areas that have high Brit ex pats resident or not, it’s highly likely that the Policia Local will be tasked with checking the Padron registration rather more closely than before. For the sake of a few thousand euros a year you are much better off getting sorted right now. If you’ve been paying non residents tax you can soon change last years to residents and get your papers, that way no back tax......if you’ve been paying nothing then brace yourselves.

[Tetley]

I always thought it was 90 days in 180 days. So if you were here for 90 you’d have to go out for 90 before you can return. Just popping up to France, Portugal or Gib to get your passport scanned won’t do as it would get scanned coming back in a hour or day later. Perhaps I’m wrong eh !?!

that's my understanding as well  ie  its 90 max in and 90 day min out and the passport trick wont help because portugal france ect are within the eu ,and as for Gib......that could be a toe tapper once they all start debating trade deals .

[Toyboy]

I always thought it was 90 days in 180 days. So if you were here for 90 you’d have to go out for 90 before you can return. Just popping up to France, Portugal or Gib to get your passport scanned won’t do as it would get scanned coming back in a hour or day later. Perhaps I’m wrong eh !?!

[Tetley]

If the only way for authorities to know if someone has exceeded the 90 day rule is to check their passport when they leave the country, what happens if they don't leave to go anywhere else and so their passport is never scanned etc . Without checking the chip on a regular 3 month interval how will authorities know who has exceeded the 90 days ?

well i came in yesterday,the flight was picked up by the buses and we got off the bus into the non schengen/non eu area,to be met by approx  6 airport helper,s whom organised the punters to present there passport to two np officers and 2 gc officers the full flight was checked.

also in spain,the onus will be on the punter to prove he/she hasn't committed an infraction ,the administration does not need to prove anything only suspect then issue a sanction  then the punter  has 30 days to dis prove the infraction before a judge/judges /administrative panel .

(i read somewhere the overstay sanction fees are 500  or 600 e from memory  a day but it should state them some were on the ministry interior  site along with the appeals procedures )

there should be some outline here somewhere on the NP Site https://www.policia.es/documentacion/no_comunitarios/estancia.html

perhaps Rog will have a look for as wile i carry on wiring this motor up in shed and mebee put a report together to assist the holiday home folks .

[byrney]

Sallyb.  How would that help?  They hardly ever even check your passports when you go to Gib, let alone make a note of the fact that you've been there.

Why on earth do people want to live illegally?  I'd be terrified of that knock on the door.  For God's sake, do things legally.

[Greggers]

If the only way for authorities to know if someone has exceeded the 90 day rule is to check their passport when they leave the country, what happens if they don't leave to go anywhere else and so their passport is never scanned etc . Without checking the chip on a regular 3 month interval how will authorities know who has exceeded the 90 days ?

[sallyb]

What if you pop down to Gibraltar for a few days surely this breaks into your 90days?

[Roger]

Toyboy
I once bought a car without a Padron.
I obtained a letter from the Mayor which seemed to satisfy Trafico.
But this was 25 years ago in Valencia.

Oddly 3 years ago when I bought my current car from Renault in Vera the office had a pile of contracts from UK residents.
He asked me for my Padron.
I showed him my Residencia instead which is more official and he had never seen one!

In answer to your question, you can get a Padron certificate to register the car, then cancel the Padron Registration (or do not renew it when due in 2 years).
Simple.

[Tetley]

So what exactly will happen to the swallows. Anything or nothing.

here is  the withdrawal Agreement .
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/new-withdrawal-agreement-and-political-declaration

[Roger]

When they enter the EU they will be registered to remain for no more than 90 days.
When they leave the EU after 90 days???

[elfangel2424]

So what exactly will happen to the swallows. Anything or nothing.

[Toyboy]

So I’m a non resident who want to buy a car to use while I’m holidaying at my house. I can’t buy a car without producing a padron very to the car dealer.

Ps this is what predicted text on a iPhone does, gobbledegook

[Roger]

Those of us who are following the rules are protected as a result of the insistence of the EU and European Parliament that existing EU and UK residence must not lose their existing rights as a result of Brexit.
So if you are registered as a permanent resident, have registered with the Spanish Tax Authority (even if you are below the tax threshold which many will be) and have a Spanish driving licence, then all we will lose is free movement within Europe.
Our residence here in Spain is secured.

There are many who have not followed the rules.
Some people live here permanently but have not registered and retain their residence in the UK.
Some still drive with a UK driving licence because they do not think they will pass the regular Spanish medical.
There will face problems and no doubt some will decide to return to the UK.

It is obvious that many people have not woken up to Brexit.

I know that many UK pensioners tour Europe in their camper vans for most of the year.
Last week I read of a couple who were just embarking on that adventure for the next few years.
Obviously they have not heard of Brexit.

A group representing touring UK musicians met with the Culture Minister in London.
They make an income by combining their work in the UK with extended tours of the music festivals and concert halls in Europe.
The Culture Minster stated that he would be seeking special treatment for these cases from the EU.
Best of luck with that. He has obviously not read EU law.

Closer to home, many are still buying with the intention of living here for 6 months of the year, or to one day retire here permanently.
Of course in the future Spain will still welcome UK citizens to settle in Spain.
But the financial and health insurance rules will be tighter.
Remember that the guarantee for index linking of pensions and continuation of existing bi-lateral health cover only applies to EXISTING residents.

My guess is that when everything sinks in the demand for property here will decline.
Impossible to know by how much.

[Roger]

The Padron is a national register and the Tax Department has access to it.

By signing on to the Padron you are claiming that Spain is your Habitual Residence.
You are therefore required to register with the Spanish Tax Authority. Spanish tax is based on your world wide income.

Legal advice, which has been published on the internet by Spanish Tax Consultants, is not to be on the Padron unless Spain is your Habitual Residence.

[Angleseyite]

I believe they are using the Padron as a method to determine tax residency, and are chasing up Spanish tax for 2015 currently. With the other years to follow.

[Lynden]

Floss, I have no sympathy whatsoever with people who ave been flying under the radar for years.  I just hope when they catch up with them, they will reclaim all their back taxes.

I don’t want to see anyone suffer for their errors....however deliberate or not....but if you enjoy the benefits of your country of residence you must abide by their rules and pay your dues.

[Floss]

My Accountant made a few mistakes and we were resident  and boy did we go through the mill for it so for all the people out their who for many years have hidden away and have smiled at us mugs for being legal and paying our taxes.From a clint Eastwood movie the sentence ( Hell is comming to dinner ) can only describe the Agencia Tributaria who will send you their invitation in the Yellow letter in your post box.

floss

[byrney]

Floss, I have no sympathy whatsoever with people who ave been flying under the radar for years.  I just hope when they catch up with them, they will reclaim all their back taxes.

[Floss]

With residencer comes paying your Taxes in Spain and your allowances are a lot less,What about people buying will that collapse, will renting in /for the long term market also collapse.
Will those who now have to reveal themselves who are not residence have to go back to the UK or the 4 year rule apply to taxes unpaid along with all the problems that will follow.

Floss.

[Tetley]

interesting read for the interested.

https://www.freemovement.org.uk/court-of-justice-case-confirms-lower-legal-protections-for-brits-visiting-the-eu-after-brexit/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=court-of-justice-case-confirms-lower-legal-protections-for-brits-visiting-the-eu-after-brexit

morning Dears x

[zilnor]

Well said KJH and Byrney.

[byrney]

Afraid KJH you won't get that through to Tets, as he absolutely enjoys (and thrives) off the constant wind-up of vulnerable people.  Bully, through and through.  About time Phil took some action against a few members.

[KJH3]

It's signed, written off in the UK and the EU. That's it,  no matter how you voted and what your preferences were, the UK is out next Friday.
END OF STORY PLEASE! This keyboard bullying has made some people ill with worry. Can we now please move on and live the rest of our lives without this constant obsession . Whatever documentation is required those of staying will deal with it as it becomes known what is required. For goodness sake there is more to life.

[Cartron]

Imagine, picking on poor defensless  Tetley like that. Shame on you.

[Lynden]

And Tets, your point is what exactly?

He’s been banging on for long enough with his anti U.K. doom laden diatribes.....I’m sure everyone knows what his point is.....there isn’t one besides having a wind up 😀

[Tetley]

And Tets, your point is what exactly?

the new common sense that  has been foreseen and how the recipients of the said new common sense are evaluating it  first hand.