Arboleas Now website

[andie]

"gets much flack from some AUAN supporters".

Here we go again! AUAN bashing.

Dont worry Rod,people wont be intrested in AUAN bashing ,most have the job sussed out now ,ie on the acurate information front.

S   :wave

[Danno]

Lenox

I think Andie's point is the basic need for the councillors to be able to speak fluent Spanish (amongst other things).  We are not all as gifted as you.  It is tough trying to keep track of things if you have no idea what the others are saying.

Norman

I suspect the ethnic minority councillors in the UK can speak good English?  (Perhaps better than the indigenous population?)

And the 'bunch of thick colonists', I think you were referring to, included the 'landed gentry' of the North American colonies.

So perhaps not quite the same scenario that is being discussed here?

Danno

[andie]

"we are no longer Little Britons "

Lenox  :wave
you need to get out more,Arboleas is full of them on the poltical front !  :crazy:   :tiphat:  S

[Rod]

"gets much flack from some AUAN supporters".

Here we go again! AUAN bashing.

[lenox]

Andie - it'll be a European.
You can stop being parochial now, we are no longer Little Britons.

[Titch]

Dionysus

I would imagine that there are many people in Zurgena in a similar situation to you. If you don't want to join the AUAN or the AULAN, could you not approach others for an informal chat and see whether, between you, you could fund some professional advice? 

Basically, if the land is rustic, the house is illegal. There is a deafening silence about any PGOU for Zurgena.

I know that it is a worrying situation, but please don't let it spoil your day to day life. Stress can be devestating to health.

Titch

[andie]

 "I wonder why you feel that Brits are too stupid to be able to do that here "

1 )we are not in the uk.

2) you only have to read the forums to gather that most candidates have already proven thair naivety.

3 ) get me a qualifed EU cit in languages,law,planning and i MAY change my mind,however thay will still need to overcome the machine & cultral diffrences in the day to day running of things.

i have clearly out lined my 1 to 10 point veiw  ,however it may mean that a few folks have to start getting of thair shiney backsides,and  start looking at the bigger picture,rather than worrying abought everybody else ,for a change.

it wont be an English man or woman that "saves / runs Arboleas "   S   :tiphat:  (even if it ends up been a full council )

[NormanM]

There is a lot of smoke around - not to mention a good few mirrors!

Steve/Andie - does the phrase "No taxation without representation" ring a bell?

Have you noticed what a bunch of thick colonists have managed to do?

I have seen situations in the UK where members of ethnic minorities have successfully entered local politics much to the benefit of their constituents and to the authority as well.  I wonder why you feel that Brits are too stupid to be able to do that here?

[carsons1947]

Dionysus
The only way to be 100% certain in yourself that you have got the information you need to understand your own particular problem is to use a lawyer.  If that is a problem, then a good starting point for a DIY job is to read the LOUA itself.

There are many views of Brit councillors, as you will have read on this thread.  Yours is alone on the council and therefore limited in what he is able to do. He is the only way into the town hall as far as I know. Although he, as well as us, gets much flack from some AUAN supporters, he does what he can. It can be exceedingly difficult to get information out of chaotic town halls and papers are often missing due to the police. It is not long since papers were filed in shoe boxes in these little villages and things cannot be traced or never existed!

There are others in Zurgena trying to get to the bottom of their own individual cases and unable to use a lawyer. Perhaps you could form an informal little group to study the basics together and share books etc.
Studying the LOUA will give you a good grasp of the basics, if a lawyer is a problem.  Not light reading though!

PM me if I can help you get started.

[Danno]

Carsons

I have made no comment of guilt or otherwise of the Arboleas Mayor, I only commented that it seems he has misled Roger.

I don't know what you think my little group is?  I have never commented that I think the Help Desk people are naive or stupid, either, although I do think Roger has been taken for a ride by the PSOE. 

Dionysus

I have been busy finding out what is going on out here on the housing issues for over 4 years, I know enough to know that Saffi is generally spot on, and has been 'learning' a good deal longer than I.  If you ask a question on a forum you will get offered 'help' from all sorts of people.  Saffi, me, Andie/Steve, Roger, Carsons, and uncle Tom Cobbley and all. 

The advice/information on the forum is freely given (generally).  It is your choice whether to accept it.

I think you should do as Andie/Steve suggests and seek professional advice.

Danno 

[andie]

Dionysus   :tiphat:

on here and else where we have a lot of people who can talk the talk abought anything & everything ,with little knowladge of either

in my experience here,after 10 years and witnesing 100, 000,s of meters of almand & Olive & orange groves flatternd in the name of profit,i would think very few people are 100 % legal,thair are thousands think thay are,but the proof eventually will be upto the goverment to decide.

my advice,would be to spend an hour with a M davies,lawyers mojacar and ask him to explain your rights & obligations in spanish law,and also join a support group like the auan or the aualn.

to be quite honest our dabbaling poltical brits  and thair freinds will be  a locally liability ,spouting thair contiuned second hand silly ness and deffinatly need to be taken with more than a pinch of salt ,as do others with vested intrests .

basikly it sounds like localy in the valle,your just one of thousands with a housing issue  alltho not all like yourself has had the balls to face it.

Genuinley

Steve   :tiphat:

[carsons1947]

Danno
You are once again misrepresenting what was said.  I respect the position of Mayor and treat them accordingly, whatever I think of them as people.  It so happens I like Angel as do a lot of people.  

I also believe that he is innocent until proven guilty.  That is his human right.  As far as I know there have been no charges brought against him.  Arboleas is a tiny village and full of gossip and troubles between families. Gossip may or may not indicate guilt.  We do not know what happened. It is right to leave it to the police.

The people on the help desk are neither naive nor stupid, much though your little group would like to portray us that way.  We do things differently because we are working from the inside.

Things are progressing here for the safety of houses, although slowly.  Increasing the safety of the houses is my main priority. I am sorry that Albox is not doing so well, but Arboleas has developed differently and progress is easier here.  Nothing is ever safe in Spain, but the nearer we can get to it the better, step by step.

[Dionysus]

What I'm getting frustrated with, is the inability of some people to give a direct answer, to a direct question.
I get frustrated with people who tell you that what they are saying are facts, yet, when asked to give evidence to support their so called knowledge, then fail to offer nothing more than vague references, to what they may have been involved in and whom they have taken advice from.

I will not take advice from someone, or anyone for that matter, who is not prepared to openly reveal their sources of information!

[Danno]

Strange old World, isn't it?  Carsons thought that this thread was 'drawing to a close' - wishful thinking a bit like Canute, it seems.  I think respect goes with a position until the person holding said position shows him/herself unworthy of that respect.  I don't respect a Mayor because he is a 'nice young man', I respect him for his actions.  I think Roger has hinted that the nice young man, Angel, has misled Roger (or worse).  Certainly the 'nice' Mayor of Albox has done nothing to endear himself to the Albox Brit community.  We don't want 'nice', we want some action to sort out this bl***y mess.

Dionysus.  There is little point you getting frustrated with Saffi, what you are being told are facts.  All members of an urbanisation, no matter how reluctantly, have to join the urbanisation association.  There isn't a choice in the matter.  Now when these associations will have to be formed in this rather lawless part of Spain is anyone's guess, bit it will come.

The jury is still out on the ceding of land.....Arboleas may be a 'pilot' area on this, we'll see.  The Town Halls may turn a blind eye to it, they may not. If you have no land to cede....they may take money instead.   Looking at the parlous state of Town Hall finances, make a guess?

I am no expert on Zurgena and its town plan etc.  The silence is deafening, I have not heard there is any sort of plan from the Town Hall being mooted as being close to approval, so the decision to form an association may not be urgent, but Saffi is right to urge you to consider it. (You don't have to take the advice).

Danno

[unclebob]

I'm not sure, but I think you will find that Dionysus, comes from a land where there is a british councillor.............The future? one hopes not.

[Saffi]

Dionysus - this is all I know about your proeprties

^{I live on a small development of thirteen properties, of which, one has already been taken back by a bank, another one appears to have been abandoned (actual status uknown). Four are owned by pensioners (one being ourselves), four more by people living back in the UK, one by a couple soon to return to the UK and the last two by two couples, who just about manage to make a living!}

I am just telling you the rules for urbanising, if you do not pay then the town hall will appropriate a chunk of your land, garden or whatever as compensation for you not paying and then use it as they wish to do so bearing in mind it will then be urban and of course of value.

All I am trying to do is give advice and inform, not force anyone to do anything, and you do need to understand what you are dealing with to make informed choices so that you have the best chance of being able to influence matters or make the best decisions you can for your own circumstances.  I don´t really understand why you are turning it into a personal argument with me especially as I am not saying any of these things lightly just telling you how it is, if you want to be made urban and therefore legal you need the infra structure. .  

[Dionysus]

Lose land! What land, for pitys sake?
And if the town hall took the land, what in the hell do you think they are going to do with it?
They can't build on it!
If you put all the land together, which is a physical impossibility, there still wouldn't be enough to be of any use!

I've given my views and as far as I'm concerned, that's the end of that particular matter!

[Saffi]

Dionysius - well then your neighbours need to realise that the town hall will simply force them to pay or lose land as compensation for works done if they will not pay their share, it is simple, there is no alternative, to be urbanised you HAVE, under spanish and EU law, to have the infra structure and I bet my hat you will be the ones to pay.  Very frustrating for you I know, you only need a majroity though - 70% of you may well be enough, would that work? 

By the way I am not proposing it just saying this is one concrete option you can start now that gives you genuine powers that cannot be ignored whereas liasing with organisations such as AUAN etc are all optional, however the Town Hall cannot, in law, ignore a resident´s committee

[andie]

Apparently you only need 250 votes to get a seat on Arboleas Council. Any volunteers?

word on the street s is  , thairs at least 6 possible 8  ex pats  already   :tiphat:  S 

[The Reiver]

Apparently you only need 250 votes to get a seat on Arboleas Council. Any volunteers?

[unclebob]

Carsons

Blah Blah..... respect is repect in any country. Earn it!

[carsons1947]

Bob
There you go again.   You know nothing about my fundamental attitude to politicians since we have never talked about it.  You are probably very wrong.

Perhaps you would prefer a different word to respect. When I use it, I am not talking about kow-towing. Perhaps observing protocol fits your interpretation better?

Observing protocol is a necessity when working in, or dealing with, a town hall.  You break it at your peril.  If you do, you and your cause, will simply go to the bottom of the pile, or you will be excluded.

We have had hundreds of people through our consultation meetings with the Mayor. All bar one has treated him politely/ respectfully/according to protocol. That does not mean that they have let him off lightly or that they have failed to let him know their opinion. 

It is perfectly possible to hold a politican to his duty without breaking protocol/being aggressive/rudeetc etc.   

[Dionysus]

Saffi, as far as I'm concerned, I'm not going to waste my time and energy, embarking on what would be nothing more than a fools errand!

I know the people who are my neighbours (those that are left) well enough, to realise that any scheme to form an association, would be doomed from the very outset.

As an example of what I, or anyone else would be facing, in trying to do what has been suggested, please note the following:

Access to the development is via an unsurfaced track, which at one time, was tarmac until one of the builders dug it up!
Over time, this track became increasingly difficult to drive over and a point was reached, whereby some cars could not pass over the track without the passenger having to get out.

It was suggested that all the residents still living on the development, pay a preportion of the cost each, just to have the track leveled and surfaced with something to stop rapid deterioration.
So, the cost would not have been more than a couple of hundred euros each at worst.
Of those residents asked, one refused point blank and another gave every indication they would not be willing to pay!
Can you imagine what the response would be, if you suggested they contribute thousands of euros each, to put in the missing infrastructure!

Now perhaps you will understand, why such a scheme as has been promoted on this forum, would just simply not work!

[Saffi]

Urbanising costs will of course vary as each urbanisation will have its own needs, its own distance from existing services etc etc....it is the procedure that matters so that you are empowered IF you need it (my bet is you will)

Question 1 - my bet is inevitably it will fall to the property owners as the entrenched attitude is that the properties will all increase in value once they are made legally urban.  There is no one else to pay, personally I think any fines on mayors and builders should go to the property owners towards these costs.

Question 2 - is clearly still in debate Steve, why do you keep on so?  If anyone could answer this there would be no need for all the meetings and procedures would there? 

Another post on here refers to Watchdog, spanish TV has a program that visit people´s homes where things have gone wrong etc, why not try and get on spanish TV, you would need some spanish illegal home owners of course.

Just bemoaning the situation on here and raging instead of doing something constructive using the powers you all do already have, so that you are ready and organised in case / when you need to be would be a much better use of energy. If you doubt that fellow property owners will want to join a committee of owners to protect their own interests then educate them about how much of the power they DO have they are giving away.  Yes you are helpless to a certain extent but you are not totally helpless. Seeking justice in Spain is as useless as seeking justice anywhere, the Priors have not had justice after all and they never will, they are forced to compromise on their lifestyle still and nothing will bring their house back or compensate for all the stress etc.

[andie]

Roger
posing questions,dosent up set me,equally i dont expect them to up set others,especialy those like your self with years of "poltical on the  UK  northan streets expereince "

you are the one who nailed your flag to the psoe,you are a party member,social secatery / activist this by your owne admision is fact .


as for my questions

1 ) infrastructer cost to the Arboleas home owner yes or no please ? (assuming its not already fully in place and complet )

2 )  what will happen to un urbanisable houses ,in Arboleas ?


thanks

S   :tiphat:

[Lynne]

 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Titch]

Bob says it all. Respect goes to the person who is doing a good job and not the position. Get real.

Titch

[unclebob]

Quote from Carsons
n Spain the Mayor is the first citizen and expects to be treated  as such.  Political manners matter a great deal and we should, IMO, fit in with this if we want cooperation.

Is this the same respect we should adopt where the Spanish openly ridicule Zapatero, and make comparisons between him and Mr Bean?   Get real!

In fact, are we talking about the same person, indeed, are we on the same planet. This Mayor we are told we should ‘respect because of his position’ has allegedly used his position for something that the police would like to talk to him about. In the UK it would be ‘helping with enquiries’ (or am I mixing him up with all the other 'respectful' Mayors in Spain, if so I apologise). Is this the same Mayor and Town Hall that Roger is ‘p****d off about (his words not mine). Is this the same Mayor who appears to have told the help desk all was well, when it patently was not.
Politicians are servants of the people, elected by the people, and respect comes for them not by default but by deeds done.
IMO (as you often put it) he deserves scrutiny and lots of it, and if he is doing a good job, THEN gets respect, and that is the same the world over, or do you propose that Spain is a ‘different story’ just as Arboleas WAS a ‘different story’

This has nothing to do with attacks, or bigots (thank you for that) or Help Desks (again, well done Roger), or AUAN, it is a fundamental question about our attitude to politicians.
IMO, I disagree strongly with yours

[Roger]

Steve,
You are very upset that I have not answered some of your questions.
If you could repeat the questions you think I have not answered I will give my reply. either an answer, if I have one, or an explanation of why I do not have an answer.

On a second point, you continually refer to me as being a PSOE activist.
It is true I am a member. It is also true that the mayor put me on the local executive. I accepted the position because it gave me more ability to try to get answers to the qustions people are asking.
However, the mayor, as Secretary, has never called a meeting of PSOE members or the executive. (he is the only person authorised to do so).
My membership will probably continue while it opens doors to information, or until they throw me out.

[andie]

i wouldent think thair will be many local house buyers wishing to "re invest ",people may take a few hundred euros on the chin, "to complet "but i would think thair will be a lot of " local displeasure " at  being asked 1000,s

S   :tiphat:

[Dionysus]

Clearly you have misunderstood the point I was making in regard of the figure you have quoted.

That figure is out of date by at least by four years and accordingly, there has to be an adjustment for inflation.
So, that may well be the figure you were quoted and subsequently paid but, comparing like for like, it would not be the figure you would pay at today prices!
To continue to use that figure as a comparison, is both inaccurate and misleading.

But then, it's all academic, as given the situation that exists on our development, any scheme even remotely similar, would fail dismally to garner enough support, to make it a viable option!

[andie]

yes hopefully next time round i may even get my questions answered    :tiphat:  S

[carsons1947]

Thankfully, this thread now appears to be drawing to a close.  Before it does so I would like to just say a couple of things.

At the help desk we often hear people say that they would like to go on the forum and thank us for our efforts but that they are frightened to do so because they are afraid that the small group refered to earlier will turn on them.  It has been a real pleasure to see that some of them now are beginning to feel more free to do so.  Thank you for that.

As comments abuot my attitude to the Mayors have been made, I would like to clarify my position. n Spain the Mayor is the first citizen and expects to be treated  as such.  Political manners matter a great deal and we should, IMO, fit in with this if we want cooperation. Even if your personal opinion of him is low he should still be treated with respect, and if you can't manage that, at least treat the position he occupies with respect. 

In Arboleas we have a Mayor that I like. He is a nice young man. who also works very hard for a modest salary.  All that means is what it says. He's a nice chap and a hard worker! A lot of people like Angel.  Incidentally, I also like Albox's  Pepe as well. 

I have repeatedly said that I do not know who has done what in the past, I prefer to leave that to the police, and, unless proved otherwise, a person is not guilty. 
I have not made any recommendation as to who should/not be the next Mayor.
I have said that it is too early to make up my mind who I will vote for.

The above statements mean what they say and nothing more, so there is no point in reading into them things that are not there

[atnuj]

Anyone fancy a pint ?

Dear Sir or Madam, disciple  of  onan, yours is the only post on this thread that made me laugh - Strongbow though....

[atnuj]

In no way should the figure of four thousand euros, be used as any sort of example, as the sort of costs that can be expected, as has been done, by some on this forum!

May I respectfully point out that the €4 thousand is an indisputable auditable fact

Clearly those who will pay for other projects will be asking for at least 3 detailed competitive quotations, based on a detailed scope of works, which those who will pay will write or agree in advance....