Cantoria urbanisation costs

[Roger]

We have discussed all these issues. as you know Steve I am discussing these problems with someone who has a great deal of political and technical experience.
I have put all these issues to him in writing, and we have had several very long discussions about them.
Obviously time scale depends on resources, but we have talked about this solution.
As for the legal issues.
We are not Albox. We can see no easy legal solution to the problems in Albox.
There are easy legal solutions in Arboleas to the very small number of problems which will be left over after the current urban plans are approved.
They do not require any agreement of anyone outside Arboleas.
It has taken hours of discussion, but I am convinced, as I am sure you are Steve, that I am talking to people who understand. Most importantly, people who are not looking for solutions to cover up past illegality on their part.

[andie]

yes Andy thank you for your overview of my qustions   :tiphat:

basikily i have posed the questions ,as i feel prety sure the new team will have done thair howework on the subject,and  will have already  discused the questions that the man or women in the street will be asking  come election time so basikly im asking for thair  present overveiw on my two questions posed.

S   :tiphat:

[AndyH]

should your new team get elected,over what time scale are we looking at to legalise EVERY house in Arboleas with full  legal & complet paperwork & mains services ?

and how will the new team go abought dealing with houses sat on rural non urbalisable land to protect the home owner from possible  feture court procedings instageted by provincal goverment  ?

Those are extremely difficult questions for anyone to answer, Steve. The time scale (even if a viable plan was evolved) could be subject to legal appeals and counter-appeals - how long is a piece of string? It actually would be out of a local politician's hands, and would involve what you might term the "political-legal interface"... in other words, who knows?

The second question hits the same buffers. The judges would be involved, at several levels... it goes beyond political intent into what is legally possible. It could go beyond Spanish domestic law too, as there are human rights and treaty issues involved.

I think any "fix" has to be approved at the very top, basically. A purely local "fix" may not be viable.

Andy

[andie]

Roger
2 genuine questions .

should your new team get elected,over what time scale are we looking at to legalise EVERY house in Arboleas with full  legal & complet paperwork & mains services ?

and how will the new team go abought dealing with houses sat on rural non urbalisable land to protect the home owner from possible  feture court procedings instageted by provincal goverment  ?

S   :tiphat:

[Roger]

I am very sorry if I have not made my opinion clear.
I will try again.
I, and some other members of the Help Desk, are attempting to put together a list for next May's elections.
It will contain both British and Spanish members of the community, with a respected local Spanish person for Mayor. It will contain members of the Help Desk, including one of the Deputy Mayor positions.
We are well advanced in putting together a programme, including solutions to all the urban problems facing the British community, but also to address the economic problems facing the Spanish.
We have had many discussions, including technical and legal.
I am very optimistic that we will have the solutions to the problems, to turn Arboleas into the prosperous pleasant community we all want.
The red lines are .. No Corruption, help to every house owner in providing missing infrastructure and missing documents, and a totally open and transparent administration.

Obviously this is not compatible with the present administration.

We will be having meetings in September, barriada by barriada.

[HogRider]

Sorry Peeps to bang on but is anybody 'in the know' going to address any of the issues raised in this thread by THE VOTING PUBLIC ?  If not, perhaps Forum Admin should just lock the thread and we can all go back to sticking our heads in the sand as we have been accused of on more than one occasion !

Hogs  :tiphat:

[atnuj]

Uncle Bob - around Zurgena there are a lot of tarmac roads but are the sewage pipes underneath them?  Are there pavements?  Street lights?  

Juan Sheet - if you read the posts properly and take time to think before hurling insults I don´t think there is anyone saying roll over, just saying do all you can to be empowered in the right way.  If you want to be a stubborn ostrich with your head in the sand feel free but remember you won´t be able to see clearly then and don´t whinge in future then when you find you have no effective rights. For the record I am not a developer, never have been, never want to be, have never even worked for a developer, and have no vested interest other than to help people work WITH the spanish system to protect themselves, nowhere am I saying you should just roll over and pay up.   Ostriches bums are in the air and brains buried. You will be treated as such by spanish officialdom if you don´t approach this

This treats a different, but related subject from the one I just replied to.

A tarmac road can be easily dug up - it really doesn't matter IMHO if there is one or not - if there are street lights or not - standards and norms change, for electricity, water, street lights - sewage etc.  - I'ts no diferent in the UK - how many times have you seen the Water Board relay a pipe on Monday - the Gas Board on Tuesday - BT on Wednesday - and so on.....

And (with no disrepect to any single soul) - I read a set of divergent opinions in this thread - from those ignoring an evident problem, to those saying "trust me" - and that seems a recipe for "clustered duck" - whatever is so difficult about getting together on an estate by estate footing is still my basic question?

[atnuj]

Atnuj - totally agree, the whole community will benefit from sewage plants so therefore they should all pay, but this may well mean  a substantial increase in IBI which will affect the spanish - the voters.  Personally I would rather pay double the IBI or more if it meant no one was landed with a bill for thousands as the IBI really is very low over here.

Saffi, having been away for a few days I'm reading the threads I'm interested in again to catch up and see what's happening.  Your point quoted above is valid about IBI increases. For the urbanisation I previously gave details re. infrastructure costs (Vera Ayuntamiento) we used to pay around €250 per year IBI. We were recently notified it was going up to over €300 this year, and will progressivly go up to €800 by 2018. Now I don't have a problem with that - it's still cheap compared to the UK - and it reflects the costs of that new sewage plant, and no doubt costs of increased beach cleaning operations, spraying to keep the mozzies down, local road improvements, a brandy in the Major's coffee and so on. I am however glad that I do not have to pay a big one off charge for that new sewage works or the new water pipe spine.

So I'd fight, if I were a property owner in Cantoria (or any other town in the valley), for estate urbanisation charges to be just that - and central charges to be also just that.... but I wouldn't know how to do that without some sort of estate by estate non political Community to make a collective estate voice heard. And this is where I take issue on Roger's admitted (and intruigingly mysterious) political solution.

A Community is a group of owners, worrying about their estate's interests IMHO, and by definition politics will not neccessarily deal with a specific estate's problem fairly without input from the residents of that estate.

[HogRider]

It ain't gonna happen, just like it didn't happen on the marches, collecting signatures, or even selling tickets for a forum bash !  And castigating and bad mouthing those that wouldn't or couldn't turn out won't help the situation either because it is negative and achieves nothing !

Who is being negative now!

Never negative Norman, realistic yep I'll own up to that but never negative ! If folk don't like my view they can ignore it ! 

However if Roger and others keep telling us its all sortable and come next may there will be an alternative then I think its only right and proper to fully understand whats being proposed.  Unfortunately Roger is posting on the forum from the backs of several donkey's and some of us find it difficult to keep up with what position comments are being made. PSOE, Helpdesk an undeclared politcal party or Rogers personal opinion !

Hogs :tiphat:

[iuvlambos]

I cannot voice an opinion? It is rather difficult to do anything from England where i live permantently. My mother lives in Arboleas. Do you know anything about me? All the posts I see you make are having a go at others that are trying their best. I have seen nothing constructive from you. Only moan moan moan. 

[andie]

judgeing by what ive read so far on this thread the Arbolease Brit polticals are finished before thay start,its one thing not wanting to be badgered by the forum idiot (precived ) :wave

but its a diffrent ball game all together,when you wont answer geniune questions possed by very inteligent folks.


only an observation, and no offence intended.

S  :tiphat:

[unclebob]

So Rogelio
What did you do to solve the problem to allow yourself such high ground criticismn of others you know nothing about.

[iuvlambos]

This all getting very boring. Every time I log in I is see the same people asking the same old questions.  Questions that are probably unanswerable or have been answered before. You lot are like dogs with a bone. Give the guy a break. At least he is giving some feedback and not keeping it all to himself. When he knows he will tell. He has already said that come September more information will be provided. Why do you have to constantly harrass him? At least he is not sitting on his backside doing nothing unlike some that moan at those that are doing something.  Think it is time this thread was locked, although no doubt one of you will start a similar one.

[unclebob]

And STILL the questions remain.......... (apologies to Hogs)

1) Who is working on the answers ? a) The Council  b) The Helpdesk  c) A new, as yet, undeclared political party  d) Roger

2) The problem with "reading between the lines" is that having changed the lines so many times, we are not sure of what set of lines we should be reading between !  not forgetting the 'Fudging" and Andie's " Smoke and Mirrors" !

3) In September WHO will presenting the the people of Arboleas with a choice ? a) The Council  b) The Helpdesk  c) A new, as yet, undeclared political party d) Roger

[AndyH]

I thought everyone will have read between the lines.

Roger,

Try - hard - to understand something... please.

Most of us do not want to have to "read between the lines". We do not want answers in hieroglyphics, code, or by studying the entrails of bats.

Hope that is sufficiently clear.

Sublime hints, vague allusions, and outright evasion is the reason hardly anyone trusts any politician of any hue these days. It is why people cannot be bothered to vote. They have no trust, no confidence. Why should they when they are treated like children and cannot get a straight answer?

I will tell you straight. I would not vote for you, based purely on the way I have seen you handle questions on here. I suspect I am not the only one. I acknowledge you have done good work with the Help Desk, and no doubt try your best, but I could never support anyone who makes an art form out of avoiding straight answers.

Andy

[jabba the cat]

 I followed this blog from the start and you know what ive loss the plot on here its more like a Agatha Christie novel.
There are simple solutions to many problems as been mentioned on here earlier but im afraid when politics come into it then this is what you get circles and roads to no where egos rule,and any dam thing to slow down whatever needs changing for the good of the people and the area.
One person who comes to mind who could help his name Guy Fawkes. :tiphat:

[NormanM]

It ain't gonna happen, just like it didn't happen on the marches, collecting signatures, or even selling tickets for a forum bash !  And castigating and bad mouthing those that wouldn't or couldn't turn out won't help the situation either because it is negative and achieves nothing !

Who is being negative now!

[HogRider]

As I said the answers are being worked on and will be discussed barriada by barriada in September.

I thought everyone will have read between the lines.

In September we will be presenting the people of Arboleas with a choice.

Please give us a little more time to discuss the possible solutions before we come to ask your opinions in September.

Roger
Can I please try again ?

1) Who is working on the answers ? a) The Council  b) The Helpdesk  c) A new, as yet, undeclared political party  d) Roger

2) The problem with "reading between the lines" is that having changed the lines so many times, we are not sure of what set of lines we should be reading between !  not forgetting the 'Fudging" and Andie's " Smoke and Mirrors" !

3) In September WHO will presenting the the people of Arboleas with a choice ? a) The Council  b) The Helpdesk  c) A new, as yet, undeclared political party d) Roger

Now I'm not asking the content of these issues just trying get a clear, concise, transparent answer in points 1 and 3 and making an observation as an ordinary bloke AND prospective VOTER on point 2 !

Hogs :tiphat:

[HogRider]

Danno

I really don't think that you are out of step with my take on the current political posturing and maneuvering going on in Arbiland and if I'm any judge I can't see a fully loaded ex-pat council or even one loaded with enough newcomers to make much of a difference.  What I do see is that some may wish to try to turn over the Spanish 'system' of family ties and allegiances in political positions locally, regionally and even nationally.  And if I'm truly honest I can't see it happening.  The problem rubbing shoulders with what might be perceived as 'made men' sooner or later somebody is going to get straightened up !  

Saffi's viewpoint has much merit and along with the other initiatives in the EU with Andresen bringing pressure to bear nationally and the like there may just be a solution to this shambles. But one thing is certain the current politicos have got to offered a solution which will give them the route to 'Save Face' and no matter how it is dressed up and presented it is a national problem and not one that can be sorted by 11 well meaning new party volunteers that manage to get voted into a local council chamber.

And it's all very well cajoling people to sign on the Padron and register to vote here as is their right but it shouldn't be forgotten that many newcomers didn't or wouldn't vote in the UK where they understood the system ! So how the hell are old & new parties alike going to get the full turn out required to upset the apple cart ! It ain't gonna happen, just like it didn't happen on the marches, collecting signatures, or even selling tickets for a forum bash !  And castigating and bad mouthing those that wouldn't or couldn't turn out won't help the situation either because it is negative and achieves nothing !

All I do know is that many here are are at the end of their financial tether through no fault of their own ! And there ain't no magic wands or quick fixes !

Hogs Good morning all ! :tiphat:

PS I am not anti Spanish, Roger, Helpdesk, or AUAN, just an ordinary bloke that don't do BS !

[Saffi]

Sorry, I keep myself totally a-political, personally I don´t think it matter which political party or independent is in at the Town Hall, it will all come down to the same thing, the home owner pays or contributes the greatest part...... the best deal I can see is that payment is deferred until the property is sold by virtue of a fund specially set up by the EU or the Junta......

I really wish I could say something other than this, but I cannot, barring a miracle.

[Danno]

I guess I am slightly out of step with Bob and Hogs. 

I really think the PSOE need a good shake up at the top.  We can't get at the top PSOE guys with any effect, they are too distant.  However, having PSOE stronghold towns disappearing off the PSOE coloured map because someone like Roger and his mates are pulling in the expat votes, should certainly make the bigwigs wake up?

I think it is a hugely ambitious project.  Roger will need independent experts to navigate the minefields.  Above all he will need money.  If he is sorting out the mess in his own back yard, it needs to be done legally 'cos, as sure as muck, the Junta will down on him like a shot if he fudges it. (Seemingly the Arboleas way under the PSOE).

If the PP get into the Junta in Andalucia next time around, and there is a fair chance they could, then the fact that Arboleas is not PSOE any longer (if Roger's wish comes true) could spare them the 'score settling' that might otherwise come their way.

Be careful who your mates are, though, Roger....beware of having dodgy builders bankrolling you!  And be prepared to apologise to the electorate for all the misinformation you have previously peddled from your (ex) PSOE cronies.

Danno

[unclebob]

Roger
Interesting, and as Hogs says, spoken like a true politician, have you been taking lessons?, was there an answer in there somewhere? Who are you talking to? I suppose it is pointless asking the questions again, so I won't.

It is a fact that unlike the UK, independants can not stand in Spain, you need to be a party. You are a PSOE member, but unhappy with PSOE. Your implication is that you will form a new party named....... To do this there are regulations you have to comply with (tedious and long-winded), and have to submit a number of names as candidates. If the council is 11 (as I believe it is in Arboleas), then you need 11 names. Surely you have the list of names by now? So who are Arboleas community going to be dealing with, if you are not part of the PSOE. Equally, if you are not part of the PSOE, and an independant group, what power will you have in Almeria?, or Seville? You maintain that the answer lies in the hands of local politicians (hopefully yourself and others), yet, as I say, if it were that easy, the other municipalities would have already done it.
Personally, I don't get it. I have no probelms with ex-pat councillors as long as they serve the ex-pat community. IMO, expat Mayors, and councils DON'T work. This is Spain, and is for the Spaniards. We should make sure that they are on the straight and narrow by all means, and pressure them to be so, but for heavens sake, don't try and govern them. If I wanted a UK government, I would have stayed in UK.

[HogRider]

Well done Roger !

Answered like a true politician, Rule 1 Don't answer the question Rule 2 Say nothing definitive Rule 3 Promise Milk and Honey on some future day but never today !

Roger, you may well be doing your aspirations to lead the Arbiland uprising of the proletariat no justice at all and find without straight and honest speaking you may well end leading a party of 1 ! We await with bated breath !

Hogs :tiphat:

[Roger]

In reply to Hogs.
As I said the answers are being worked on and will be discussed barriada by barriada in September.
Of course every resident will be able to contribute. But only those on the electoral register will be able to choose next May.
I thought everyone will have read between the lines. Certainly I have made my views crystal clear to everyone who has come to discuss this with me face to face at the Help Desk.
I do not agree with the way the present administration is tackling the problems.
At the Help Desk we have tried to work with the present people because they are the ones with the power. But we have become increasingly frustrated, and next May will be everyones chance to make a choice.
In September we will be presenting the people of Arboleas with a choice. Then you can choose.
Please give us a little more time to discuss the possible solutions before we come to ask your opinions in September.

[unclebob]

Well lets put it this way if they want money to make my house legal - forget it - they have had it all and the kitty is empty. Can't get blood from a stone I'm told. We are living entirely on our pensions now and just about keeping our heads above water........

So! Roger, Saffi, Mayors of the Valley, how do you deal with this (and be sure he is nowhere on his own, I'd like to know the answer to this one as well. So many questions....... so few answers.

[jarick]

Well lets put it this way if they want money to make my house legal - forget it - they have had it all and the kitty is empty. Can't get blood from a stone I'm told. We are living entirely on our pensions now and just about keeping our heads above water........

[unclebob]

Hogs, Roger
Yes, I'd be interested in those answers as well.
Hogs, no apologies required, as the initiator of this thread, I always expected it to move out to other municipalities, as the problem in Cantoria is the same as in all the other areas (including Arboleas).

[jabba the cat]

hoggs
Well i did mention the change of name on the botton of page 2.as we were not getting enough people interested in the topic
but maybe folks have had enough (may be thats what Ayuntamiento want ). :wave :tiphat: :head

[HogRider]

In my opinion, and the opinion of others who I am having discussions with, the problem of infrastructure for almost all the houses in Arboleas is a very simple one, and one which can and should be tackled by the Ayuntamiento.

In September we will be discussing these issues, on an estate by estate basis, with the residents, and we will be drawing up detailed plans. These plans are already in draft form, but they need to be refined on an estate by estate basis.

These plans will be ready and on the table for next May, when those who are registered to vote can have their democratic say on them.

These consultation meetings will be organised by the Help Desk, and will include others with a detailed knowledge of the problems and the solutions, with a vision for the way forward for Arboleas.

Roger

Could you clarify some points please ?

In your first paragraph you say that the problem of infrastructure is a very simple one, which should and can be tackled by the Ayuntamiento. Is that a PSOE position, Helpdesk position or the position of a yet to named and declared party who will sort every thing out ?

Given the entrenched and incompetent positions of the local ruling party and Regional Junta and the indifference of National Government have you taken any legal advice that it is as simple as that ?  Not withstanding every man and his dog has been milking the assets of British  (and other nationalities !) home owners to the point where many have very little disposable funds left (Believing that they have already paid for infrastructure and the like !)

You also mention that "we" in September will be discussing these issues with Residents on an estate by estate basis and "we" will be drawing up "detailed plans which are already in draft form"  And why only those who have registered to vote have a say on them ?  In my mind the democratic way would be to publish them for anybody in the discussed area's to have a say on them if they live in those areas!

Well, my question must be, who are the "we" to whom you refer ?  Is it the current elected administration,  the Helpdesk, or an undeclared and unnamed future political party ?  As there have been so many shifts in position and revelations in recent months by the first two groups I and I'm sure others would really like to know who is being discussed here.

And finally Roger could you clarify who at the consultation stage are the "others' who will be assisting because of their detailed knowledge of the problems and solutions and have the vision for the way forward in Arboleas ?

Thank you in anticipation,

Hogs :tiphat:

PS And my sincere apologies to the 'originators' of this thread and to the folk of Cantoria as it seems to have been taken over by Arboleas and its problems and future !  :tiphat:

[jabba the cat]

It would appear even if you have all your documents the Town hall has now stopped issuing any form of paperwork/licences 
for 10 months why now.....why as some mentioned earlier theres an election 10 months away vicious cirlce with people on it going round and round for 10 months.

[Saffi]

No sadly it is not that simple.  Town Halls cannot issue CFO´s on property that does not conform with legislation so you have a vicious circle........

[jabba the cat]

Saffi                                                                                                                                                                                        Isnt the fact that people cant get their CFO thats causing all the grieve because if that was given people then can get the services.start
paying their basura .rates and the rest can come later but giving people the chance to buy and sell their properties,getting the economy
moving and all the ideas with yourself and Andy and others can be started later to the benefit of the area.

[Saffi]

The one re requirements for urban properties saying that clusters of houses must have urban infra structure etc........ and detailing the rules for what constitutes acceptable infra structure.

[unclebob]

Saffi/Andie
Which directive are you looking for?

[Saffi]

Any area that was rustic but then becomes urban is urbana no consolidada first until the infra structure is put in place.  It is protection for owners as then the house cannot be demolished and in fact houses with this status do get bought and sold! 

The spanish are used to this so although it is still worrying re the potential sums of money involved it is good news as this is the normal procedure for changing from rustic to urban.  In addition it can often take many years for the infra structure to be installed as Town Halls do have to follow the procedures for this, consultation with property owners, communicating costs, you can then choose your own contractors and be in charge of budget or accept town hall´s decision etc (any builders amongst the residents could even do the work themselves so long as it conformed to the project) but I stress, this sounds like good news as it means you will, to all intents and purposes be legal as a house but without urban infra structure so cannot be classified as fully urban until then. 

There are other areas in Almeria on the edge of towns where properties are classified as urbana no consolidada and talk of infra structure has gone on for 10 years or more and thus far nothing has been forced and when it is forced I am reliably informed the procedure could then take a further 3 or 4 years of arguing before the Courts or with officialdom, but that the best way forward is to liaise with all the Utility companies and contractors for the most efficient and cheapest way of completing the work.