Cantoria urbanisation costs

[jabba the cat]

Talk about a tangled web,just a load of bul***t .people playing politics and you know what destroying peoples lives in the process, people who care for the area spend money here keep the economy going and are now getting fed up with the lies.untruths and delaying tactics oh sorry its Spanish law.
i hope one day i may not be here then but i hope a pray these so called people get what's coming to them JAIL

[Saffi]

Andy I cannot find it at the moment but will post when I do, I have seen it before just cannot remember the name, sorry

Uncle bob - do you have it?

[Saffi]

Non consolidated means land that is urban but not consolidated within the urban nucleus.  To achieve full urban status it will need to have infra structure installed.  The spanish term is urbana no consolidada.

To achieve full urban status and thus be fully legal is to follow the infra structure route as described here before however a property that is urbana no consolidada is not, of itself, illegal so legality status improves but not urban.......and it could be that in this case the house will be declared urban but the land remain rustic (don´t ask!) until the land can become fully urban, this will then protect you from demolition, make you legal but not urban and eventually, you will all, whether legal or not now, have to become fully urban with infra structure.

In a nutshell I predict this is the solution that will be presented and I add I have never spoken to Roger or Arboleas town Hall, just going by other areas and this strange quirk of law - no consolidada. .

[Mickey]

Bob,

Within 12 months it looks certain that almost all the houses will be on urban land (non consolidated).
The problem remaining will be that of infrastructure and documentation.
And that is a local problem which can be sorted out locally. It is just a matter of money.

Roger please explain what you mean by " non consolidated" and also who's money?  ???

[unclebob]

Roger
I believe you will find that other municipalities had local urban by laws.

"The point about Arboleas is that we had local urban by laws in place prior to the LOUA"

Which resulted in demolition orders being issued in Albox. Things like 2500 m2 would allow building on rustic land, 10,000m2 would allow you to build just about anything.
Personally, Im not convinced that Arboleas is that far removed from any other municipality, you still have areas of rustic land with houses on, which are not included on the urbanisation.
However, we shall see. As I have said before. If you make it good luck to you and the rest of Arboleas, I will of course be extremely jealous. Personally, I don't see how you can do it, and I worry that you are being given information from suspect sources rather than discovering the truth. I also worry that you are passing this information on to those who merely want to know the truth, and rely on you to tell them.

[Roger]

Bob,
The situation in Arboleas is different from the problems faced by other Towns.
Within 12 months it looks certain that almost all the houses will be on urban land (non consolidated).
The problem remaining will be that of infrastructure and documentation.
And that is a local problem which can be sorted out locally. It is just a matter of money.
I appreciate that coming from Albox you see the problem differently, because your problem is different.
The point about Arboleas is that we had local urban by laws in place prior to the LOUA.
The problem we have faced is that it has taken 6 years to adopt them to the LOUA, and in the meantime the urban lines were moved, resulting in many people being left outside.
This was local incompetence or worse.

[unclebob]

Saffi
Maybe you should direct your question about doubting the ayuntamiento will pay, to Jim Simpson!

[unclebob]

Roger
As Saffi and others have said. You keep tempting people with a golden bullet, yet you have not told us what it is. Will homeowners have to pay? Once again, as in the past Arboleas seems to be immune to the problems of other municipalities (you were wrong before , why are you right now). You told us all would be well, and it isn't/wasn't, so why should we think the people you are listening to now, are any more right than the ones you listened to before. You were naive then, have you learned a lesson, or are we just in for more polispeak.

[AndyH]

Saffi,

Which EU Directive are they relying on for this?

Andy

[Saffi]

Roger - presumably this will mean that property owners WILL be required to make at least a financial contribution or are the Town Hall actually considering covering all the costs themselves (which I doubt)?

[unclebob]

Roger
I've said before. I have no doubt that your heart is in the right place, but why on earth do you think that you can make the change. I was always under the impression that the answer lies within the hands of Almeria or Seville, or even Madrid, which is exactly why the currrent politicians have made no headway at all, because they can't.
What magic pill do you have that will change all that. I mean, if it was that easy, then one would think the current politicians would have done it years ago.
Basically, whilst I wish you every success. I think you are promising things that just can not be delivered by an individual, whether that be a person or a town council.
As your political ally Luis Caparros said frequently. "The law is the law", and with the best will in the world, you are not able to change it. Equally, if you do something that Almeria or Seville don't like, you are back to where you where (or are!)

[Roger]

Yes it is.
But what really matters is getting peoples problems solved. And if it takes some new brooms in the Town Hall to do it, what is the problem with that.
We need to give the people in the barriadas a voice in the Town Hall, so that they can insist that their problems are dealt with, not ignored as at present.

[unclebob]

To be fair and impartial, maybe the forum should invite a PP (well actually, any other interested political entity) representative to start making THEIR case? 'Cos for sure this is just electioneering.

[Roger]

In my opinion, and the opinion of others who I am having discussions with, the problem of infrastructure for almost all the houses in Arboleas is a very simple one, and one which can and should be tackled by the Ayuntamiento.
In September we will be discussing these issues, on an estate by estate basis, with the residents, and we will be drawing up detailed plans. These plans are already in draft form, but they need to be refined on an estate by estate basis.
These plans will be ready and on the table for next May, when those who are registered to vote can have their democratic say on them.

These consultation meetings will be organised by the Help Desk, and will include others with a detailed knowledge of the problems and the solutions, with a vision for the way forward for Arboleas.

[unclebob]

jabba the cat

you mean Cantoria, Arboleas AND Zurgena. We already know that Albox is in the c**p, so we just accept that.

[jabba the cat]

Saffi /andie just look whos interested on this topic and i think thats the problem here people still think that it will go away and my house is legal
so it dosnt bother me.because we talking about Cantoria and not Arboleas.
maybe this topic should be Cantoria/ Arboleas urbanization.
any comments Roger on the last couple if articles.

[Saffi]

a fairly simple set of legislative changes to straighten this entire mess out.

I don´t think any change at EU level could be classified as a simple set of legislative changes!  We need to put more pressure on the EU to get them to allow an exception in Spain with a line to be drawn underneath as this is not just a local issue, of course one thing here sets a precedent and thus the EU power declines so they will not be interested and lets not forget the EU as an institution is not immune from corruption itself.

[andie]

"Why do you think such a simple, straightforward thing is causing such difficulty here? All it would require is a fairly simple set of legislative changes to straighten this entire mess out. In essence, recognise the existence of a category of non-urban, rural property, legalise those that already exist, then crack down hard on further development outside of (legally!) approved planning/zoning development."

thats exactly what will need to happen,hopefully sooner rather than later,before more overstressed pensioners die,and a large bank fails,with a knock on effect through out the EU.

IF  you going to force / ask house owners to get thair hand down , (again  ) to legalise houses,thairs going to be a lot of greif .

S  :tiphat:

[jabba the cat]

Andy H/Saffi two good articles

Andy probably because were are British but mainly they have two many skeletons in the cupboard hence the moving of the rules and regulations

[Saffi]

It is the EU who are ultimately responsible for this decision and it affects properties in clusters throughout the whole EU, France, Holland, Germany etc.   It is not the same as here as the ruling came in after many of those properties were built but I believe there are plans to apply it retrospectively. Sadly the ruling has been in place since the 1990´s so houses built here after then ARE affected.  I stress it is for groups of houses or clusters of houses not an individual property on its own. Also houses already in existence and legal at the time they were built (ie the infra structure was not then required) will not be rendered illegal by the lack of infra structure but anything built since then is. 

Since this is an EU wide rule then I don´t know how much leeway Spain actually has, this is why getting MEP´s on board the campaign is so important.  I suspect that more than one or two houses within a certain distance of one another would fall under these rulings.  There are rural villages in the UK with tarmac roads but all operating on septic tanks who have also been told to get on mains sewage and although property owners were informed in 1995 this has not been enforced.....however those properties already have tarmac roads, pavements and street lighting, mains sewage would be astronomically expensive so is conveniently brushed under the carpet.  Given the lack of sewage works in Almanzora area, and lack of monies in general, plus the challenging local terrain where sewage pipes are concerned (requiring local sewage plants)  I personally think this should be an optional extra in order to create legal properties as pavements, street lights and tarmac roads are more important in terms of safety. I am against street lights myself but tarmac roads and pavements I think are important for all to ensure property access in rainy weather, good drainage and pedestrian safety.

[AndyH]

Saffi,

Just a general question, really, relating to what you said above.

Most countries - the UK, US, France, etc. - have a very large stock of rural properties, both new and old, that lack these facilities (tarmac roads, street lights, mains sewage, etc.) but do not have the legal problems that seem to occur here. There are also (as far as I know) no plans at all to require all rural properties in these countries to basically become "urbanised". They are recognised for what they are. Rural properties! Good luck trying to put street lights to every rural property in the US, or, closer to home Scotland or Wales! I have a friend who has just built a new house in Georgia, US. There is a dirt road, no street lights (he does have mains electric) water is from a borehole and he is not on mains sewage. There are no problems with this there at all. None. Here, I imagine he's be in a mess with the threat of a bulldozer turning up.

Why do you think such a simple, straightforward thing is causing such difficulty here? All it would require is a fairly simple set of legislative changes to straighten this entire mess out. In essence, recognise the existence of a category of non-urban, rural property, legalise those that already exist, then crack down hard on further development outside of (legally!) approved planning/zoning development.

Andy

[Saffi]

^{but explain why villas are still being sold when they do not have sewage which as you say is stopping other villas being sold which you say are illegal because they dont have sewage.
I would also agree why cant all this infrastructure be put in place area by area paid for by the council on a area to area ( i say that because some areas have roads and lights others haven't )price paid for by rates and with the council paying part of the cost its not perfect but it could be a start to end all of these problems of legality.}


Sorry no idea.....but if there is the pipework for sewage but now works for it to go to that is fine.......however it is not just sewage that makes a property illegal, it is the whole shebang......paperwork, licences, tarmac road, street lights etc......and the reality is that eventually every legal property without some aspects of urban infra structure will be required / forced to pay for everything they are missing but this will probably take decades.

If we want councils to pay for all this then rates would have to increase substantially.......to more along the lines of UK council tax levels.....and local spanish and those unaffected by these issues would then not be happy as it is mentioned here in a previous post by someone. 

[andie]

"people need to stop pr#tting around,and start attending open council meetings on mass , (PEACFULLY & LEGALLY )instead of leaving it to a few mis informed but good hearted folks." said andie

according to Roger you couldnt even be bothered to turn up for your own village meeting.

yes you are correct Paige i couldent because its same ****  diffrent day,however should folks feel the need to get thair act together in the feture and start attending on mass  to help the "local policy makers" form policies that help people attain thair legal paperwork for thair homes then i may pop along as well,in fact maybe i can sit next to you !   ;)
S  :tiphat:

[atnuj]

There are probably a thousand or so communities in Almeria province - so the answer to a Q above as to how to set one up could be to go the Public Library and get a copy of a relevant Community's Statutes - I'm pretty sure those are a matter of public record..... Dunno, as I HAD to join one (on the coast) when I bought the coastal property , but never was involved in setting one up!

Ask a solicitor might be an idea???

please remember, even if it is a holiday home, you will have no choice but to be a part of any properly constituted community, and thus whether you are active or passiive you will still be bound by their decisions, and have to pay

please remember, if people do not pay, the way it works is that they will get an embargo put on on their property

please remember, just like a car, horse, dog and any other physical property - the unpaid bills go with the property - not the individual - in other words all fines, overdue tax, overdue community fees, existing  court orders, infrastructure renovation fees or maintenance fees, rubbish collection charges, segregation charges, and registration and cadastral fees and so on and so on.... should be paid before transfer of goods, chattels and properties by the old owner.... or after (by the new owner if he has not insisted to buy with a 'clean sheet')

I know - it's different - took me 10 years to figure this out - but that's the way it is - and it's why no spaniard understands why we all pyss and moan about being mucked over.....

IMHO

[Danno]

There's plenty of sewage in the Almanzora valley...just not much sewerage to take it away!!

Danno

[Paige]

.......................

[andie]

I have already touched upon the subject of setting up a community, with the idea of sharing costs so, my views should already be known.
But I will add that a further complication arises, from the fact that there is a small number of residents, who will just not talk to the rest!

As far as Zurgena is concerned, there are developments within that municipality, that have, as far as I'm aware, full infrastructure in place, which begs the question; if they have it, then why are there developments that don't?

And why should those who don't have it, be expected to pay again?

you are correct,its a nightmere,my freind runs one in Denia,thay have had to close the pool,because people whont pay the maintance repair fee,s,the gardeners chucked it because of all the ding dings,and the 5 full time resident have just payed a massive drainage bill and the other 17 part time resident whont pay in because thay say thair only thair part time.

none starter ,thairs only one way,draw a line under it,roll paperwork or bust the contruction investment here for 20 years.

people need to stop pr#tting around,and start attending open council meetings on mass , (PEACFULLY & LEGALLY )instead of leaving it to a few mis informed but good hearted folks.

S  :tiphat:

[Titch]

I see nothing wrong with following the Scout motto, Be Prepared.  How does one go about forming a 'Community of Owners'? What would be a reasonable price to pay for setting it up?  

I can't believe that Zurgena, Cucador and Los Llanos de Peral can all be on urban land.  They are even further away from the 'Urbano Casco' than many around Albox which we know to be illegal.  Perhaps it would be a good idea for the residents of Zurgena to really appraise their situation and their paperwork. Unfortunately the truth is unpalatable and they would rather believe the tales from the Mayor via the English mouthpiece.

Wasn't the Mayor of Zurgena one of the 15 Councillors/Mayors mentioned in an article about urban crimes in the valley only a couple of months ago? I believe that the Mayor of Zurgena and one of ex side kicks are charged with 'prevaricacion' by authorising building on non-urban land in El Cucado.  How does that fit with information coming from Zurgena town hall that all is well?


Titch

[jabba the cat]

Saffi
right understand what you say by false............ but explain why villas are still being sold when they do not have sewage which as you say is stopping other villas being sold which you say are illegal because they dont have sewage.
I would also agree why cant all this infrastructure be put in place area by area paid for by the council on a area to area ( i say that because some areas have roads and lights others haven't )price paid for by rates and with the council paying part of the cost its not perfect but it could be a start to end all of these problems of legality.

Its only a suggestion and i am trying to help it may be a  good or bad idea but dont start arguing with the keyboard  reasonable comments
and sugestions would help.

[Dionysus]

I have already touched upon the subject of setting up a community, with the idea of sharing costs so, my views should already be known.
But I will add that a further complication arises, from the fact that there is a small number of residents, who will just not talk to the rest!

As far as Zurgena is concerned, there are developments within that municipality, that have, as far as I'm aware, full infrastructure in place, which begs the question; if they have it, then why are there developments that don't?

And why should those who don't have it, be expected to pay again?

[unclebob]

Saffi
I have no idea whether the pipes are under the tarmac in Zurgena. I was being cynically sarcastic. I doubt that all the houses are on urban land. I doubt all the houses have infrastructure. I even doubt there is a 3 year plan to put a sewage system in the whole valley.
The point I was trying to make, is that having an expat councillor in position MIGHT not guarantee that we find out the truth. If the councillor merely passes on what the Mayor says, then you achieve nothing. Even Roger Done has shown his annoyance at his Mayor for the deception. I am not saying Roger should or should not stand, but it will not be an answer to discovering the truth.
Many people in Zurgena will take on board what ther councillor tells them, and arrange their life and future accordingly. If that information is wrong, for whatever reason, then they may be financially disadvantaged. Knowing the truth, and especially a worse case scenario, helps one to plan properly.
Discovering the truth costs money, and a LOT of it (ask the AUAN treasurer). Quite often it is bad news, however, I and many others are of the opinion we would rather know the truth, warts and all. Something the Spanish just do not seem to understand.

[Saffi]

Uncle Bob - around Zurgena there are a lot of tarmac roads but are the sewage pipes underneath them?  Are there pavements?  Street lights?  

Juan Sheet - if you read the posts properly and take time to think before hurling insults I don´t think there is anyone saying roll over, just saying do all you can to be empowered in the right way.  If you want to be a stubborn ostrich with your head in the sand feel free but remember you won´t be able to see clearly then and don´t whinge in future then when you find you have no effective rights. For the record I am not a developer, never have been, never want to be, have never even worked for a developer, and have no vested interest other than to help people work WITH the spanish system to protect themselves, nowhere am I saying you should just roll over and pay up.   Ostriches bums are in the air and brains buried. You will be treated as such by spanish officialdom if you don´t approach this

[Saffi]

False - many perfectly legal properties do not have sewage BUT in order for a property to be urbanised, which is what is required of many properties that are not currently legal, you have to follow the urbanising process and that means all the infra structure.  Having said that I think they are trying to pull a fast one a bit as although the EU legislation says this it has been in force since around 1995 and properties in the UK told then to get on to mains sewage IN THE UK, are still not on but have no legality problem.  However you do need to put in the sewage pipe infra structure before the roads and pavements are done of course for obvious reasons and this is a requirement for legal builds even with no plant to deliver to - lack of a sewage plant will not prevent legalising in my opinion.

Atnuj - totally agree, the whole community will benefit from sewage plants so therefore they should all pay, but this may well mean  a substantial increase in IBI which will affect the spanish - the voters.  Personally I would rather pay double the IBI or more if it meant no one was landed with a bill for thousands as the IBI really is very low over here.

[jabba the cat]

 
well some of us would like to be able to sell their villas at any price but we cant because we haven't got our cert of first occupation or some other silly document that you now need.
Because someone says we we need it, me and hundreds like me dont have sewage but have roads and lights the same as the ones being bought and sold,and the hundreds more who just through luck and a nod and a wink managed to get the said paperwork in the past.
Reading the articles on here if you dont have sewage they're all illegal true or false.
So why are these being sold.

[AndyH]

Sales are certainly happening. I was in an Estate Agent's office in Mojacar quite a bit this week on other business, and there were two sales agreed just in the time I was present. One was with a mortgage (approved) the other a cash sale. I think the fact that the € is now hovering in the 1.20-1.22 range has helped. Prices are certainly down a lot though. One of these properties changed hands 2 years ago for €204,000 and sold this week for €155,000. I believe the other one was close to 400K a few years ago and sold this time for 230K.

Andy