It was reported today in daily hate, sorry mail, that the statue of margaret thatcher was offered to the town of grantham but they refused it
Anyone any ideas of where they can shove it ? sorry, erect it ?
Quote from: keyser soze on February 12, 2013, 09:08:30 AM
It was reported today in daily hate, sorry mail, that the statue of margaret thatcher was offered to the town of grantham but they refused it
Anyone any ideas of where they can shove it ? sorry, erect it ?
In my front garden,just to remind you all who helped yer get here and who yer made money under. :) :tiphat:
Quote from: Tetley on February 12, 2013, 09:11:10 AM
In my front garden,just to remind you all who helped yer get here and who yer made money under. :) :tiphat:
:clap: :clap: :clap:
Well said Tetley,
Love or hate her, she did a lot of good whilst in power, I may not have agreed with all that she did, but look at the mess the UK is in currently.
Well as far as I'm concerned if they don't want to honour probably one of the best prime ministers of modern day it should be offered to a town who does.I wouldn't give them the drippings off my nose. :tiphat:
Nibbler
Judging by these replies - Arboleas!!! And then we could introduce a tomato throwing festival!!!
Totally agree with Nibbler Rozzieb and Tetley
I think its very sad , if for no other reason than as the 1st woman prime minister she deserves to be recognised for her achievement . There has never been a prime minister who hasn't done something to become unpopular at one time or another . The same goes for Royals and how many statutes and tributes are spread around different parts of the country for them .
God bless her, for all she did for our great country. She should have been made a saint many, many years ago. I would love to have the statue in my garden. :tiphat:
Latest news
The good burghers of sunny basildon, that bastion of tory values :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
has offered the statue a home
I wonder why ?
Oh I do hope the people of Craylands in Basildon get the statue, it's the sort of place it belongs :tiphat:
I think you mean dale farm in oak lane
:notopic: the wonderful burghers of sunny basildon are the same council that spent £7,000,000 + on evicting travellers a short while ago and have just agreed the building of a new site for travellers less than 800yds away
Perhaps they will put the statue at the entrance of the site !
You couldn't make it up :rofl: :rofl:
What i carnt get mi head around with all these Mrs T bangers is that folks had never had it so good you had law and order,you,your kids,your grand kids could go to work and afford to buy your own home,there was plenty of money abought if you got off your rear and worked,taxes were low,the banks were safe..... now what yer got double the tax... no youngsters can afford a home because there 30 % min over valued,the only money on the banks is on a computer screen :crazy: the uk is gray and most are running on reserve and not content and some sosalist pillxck left a note in the tresury saying they had bust the finacel system through miss mangment and there was no money left.... hence the 1.6 trill now 1.3 trill i think overdraw.
when i was 24 i had an XJS and a house if i was 24 there today id probably have sxd all .
right im off ti mend the power wash... let the debate roll ;D
ps Rog if your not busy in the Bunker... :o can you ask the mayor if we can have a statue of Tony Blair in the main square.... :o coz with out Bro Tosh most of us wouldent be here :lol:
Quote from: APY2 on February 12, 2013, 12:16:06 PM
The same goes for Royals and how many statutes and tributes are spread around different parts of the country for them .
Are there? I am struggling to think of any (assuming you are talking about the current Queen and her family)?
Quote from: Elle Sid on February 12, 2013, 14:09:29 PM
Quote from: APY2 on February 12, 2013, 12:16:06 PM
There has never been a prime minister who hasn't done something to become unpopular at one time or another .The same goes for Royals and how many statutes and tributes are spread around different parts of the country for them .
Are there? I am struggling to think of any (assuming you are talking about the current Queen and her family)?
I wasn't as i don't know of any either :lol:
All I can say is that in my living memory our country was never more respected than when Mrs T was at the helm.
The last decade and a half has been a social experiment which has failed on a grand scale and now the UK is paying the price.
Quote from: Cielos on February 12, 2013, 15:16:15 PM
All I can say is that in my living memory our country was never more respected than when Mrs T was at the helm.
The last decade and a half has been a social experiment which has failed on a grand scale and now the UK is paying the price.
sort of... 29 mill uk tax payers / millions of small savers are paying the price.... and a lost younger genaration whom will probably never own there own home or have a steady income / fiscal base.
Thatcher was an economically illiterate right winger whose toxic world view helped give rise to the neoliberal tendency that resulted in the mess many people find themselves in
Of course she was not the ultimate incarnation of evil, she was merely a deluded and vindictive crank in thrall to a poisonous and mythologised socioeconomic ideology.
Tetley.... free-market mate what did you expect ?
Quote from: keyser soze on February 12, 2013, 16:17:42 PM
Thatcher was an economically illiterate right winger whose toxic world view helped give rise to the neoliberal tendency that resulted in the mess many people find themselves in
Of course she was not the ultimate incarnation of evil, she was merely a deluded and vindictive crank in thrall to a poisonous and mythologised socioeconomic ideology.
Tetley.... free-market mate what did you expect ?
Keyser so are you actual trying to tell us that you think we were all better off under bro prescott,brown,blair bearing in mind they bust the UK ? if the answers yes :o im off to hang upside down in the nerve centre for an hour ;)
Being strong often means being prepared to be unpopular in order to do what you believe is right , ask any parent . She had the courage of her convictions , i find that an admirable quality in any person including those i dislike or don't agree with .
on the strength of her convictions (can't remember what she was actually convicted for, but that's another story) we closed a couple of factories down. The workers weren't particularly happy but what the hell, we imported the same stuff from abroad and started a warehousing/distribution network ;D
loadsa money.. 8)
Quote from: jodee on February 12, 2013, 16:45:50 PM
on the strength of her convictions (can't remember what she was actually convicted for, but that's another story) we closed a couple of factories down. The workers weren't particularly happy but what the hell, we imported stuff from abroad and started a warehousing/distribution network ;D
loadsa money.. 8)
Newtons Law Of Relativity im sorry to say isn't confined to Physics , were it so then national even global economics would be far simpler to stabilise .
Quote from: jodee on February 12, 2013, 16:45:50 PM
on the strength of her convictions (can't remember what she was actually convicted for, but that's another story) we closed a couple of factories down. The workers weren't particularly happy but what the hell, we imported the same stuff from abroad and started a warehousing/distribution network ;D
loadsa money.. 8)
And thats exaxtly why she went for the service industrys because the uk carnt compeat in low tec low wage industrys with the likes of china and the far east,hence everybody get the stuff assembled in china and the far east and shipped in.
just out of intrest i know a lad who is an eng director of a shipping co .... guess were the latest tanker is been built .... Somalia
Keyser Soze it seems you know the Basildon area well but why is so down on it. Dale farm was a fiasco, but if Maggie was in power now you can be sure Dale farm would have been sorted out in a flash. Old Johnnie two jags said they had to go but they out lived his promise. Have you ever had dealings with travellers, we have, camping out in our car park and grounds twice wanting to be paid to move on ,Police could do nothing officially but gave recommendations off the record. We would not pay them, but both times they left with nothing as they were told by the police that they could not stay between them and us all night and us as a force was growing.
I lived in the Basildon area for 20 odd years, prosperous years at that, so I would say yes to the statue there.
Quote from: Tetley on February 12, 2013, 16:53:52 PM
just out of intrest i know a lad who is an eng director of a shipping co .... guess were the latest tanker is been built .... Somalia
O well i guess their thinking now that if they cant Board them Build them :whistle:
Quote from: APY2 on February 12, 2013, 17:06:19 PM
Quote from: Tetley on February 12, 2013, 16:53:52 PM
just out of intrest i know a lad who is an eng director of a shipping co .... guess were the latest tanker is been built .... Somalia
O well i guess their thinking now that if they cant Board them Build them :whistle:
or ring em ;D
If it wasn't for our blessed Maggie we would not be where we are today.
Dog eat Dog and pure greed were her main legacy's, take what you can and stuff anyone else. The bankers of the world caught on quickly. The family jewels were sold of, like gas, electricity, water, transport, and any other utility going that we subsidised and still subsidise today. The only thing thats changed is, any money in these companies is filtered out to private bank accounts.
The only people that are expected to have any allegiance to the UK are the plebs and armed forces. 808
Quote from: webejamin on February 12, 2013, 17:29:23 PM
If it wasn't for our blessed Maggie we would not be where we are today.
Dog eat Dog and pure greed were her main legacy's, take what you can and stuff anyone else. The bankers of the world caught on quickly. The family jewels were sold of, like gas, electricity, water, transport, and any other utility going that we subsidised and still subsidise today. The only thing thats changed is, any money in these companies is filtered out to private bank accounts.
The only people that are expected to have any allegiance to the UK are the plebs and armed forces. 808
last poster out ... turn the lights off ;D
Quote from: keyser soze on February 12, 2013, 16:17:42 PM
Thatcher was an economically illiterate right winger whose toxic world view helped give rise to the neoliberal tendency that resulted in the mess many people find themselves in
Of course she was not the ultimate incarnation of evil, she was merely a deluded and vindictive crank in thrall to a poisonous and mythologised socioeconomic ideology.
Tetley.... free-market mate what did you expect ?
:crazy: You prove the point when I said we needed about 17 million culled in the 70's .
tetley, i dont know what world you were living in in the 80´s
i lived in romford and we were all out of work
early part anyway
it only livened up a bit towards the end of the 80´s
then we had john major and went back into recession again
i hated her
Quote from: bigbaz on February 12, 2013, 18:43:42 PM
tetley, i dont know what world you were living in in the 80´s
i lived in romford and we were all out of work
early part anyway
it only livened up a bit towards the end of the 80´s
then we had john major and went back into recession again
i hated her
If " We" were all out of work then why did my house triple in value ? She only took over in 79 from the other load of tw @ts so it'd take a while but I lived in Ilford & can't recall having to fight me way through hoards of unemployed to get to work ? ???
There wasn't any shortage of punters down Romford dogs most nights.
When I packed my job in in North London in '82 I had no trouble getting another one ? I'd have said it was the good times. :clap:
Most people ousted from good jobs and businesses in the 70/80s never got a good job again. The whole ideology of Thatcher was to keep people poor. It was on her watch that imigration was encouraged, purely to introduce cheap labour, but a side effect, was whole families on benefits for a generation and thats how we got into benefit fiasco we have today.
The first time I witnessed reposessions was in her time, interest rates at 15% and more, lovely days.
The ConDems we have in today are on the same crusade as she was, but of course we all knew that at the last election, didn't we? Well some of us did!
But gus-lopez, it had halved again by 93 ;)
At least she stood up to the Eurocrats. Can you believe she would have let them tell her who we could or couldn't deport, or what Human rights she should abide by. I think not. Like her or not she was a strong leader who stood up for her country.
I wish someone has the balls that she had, when standing up to the eurocrats, but her downfall was the Community Charge, aka the poll tax. In principal a good idea but from someone who worked in local government - totally uncollectable, students, servicemen and nurses were included (as they were in campus, barracks and nurses homes). I still remember a huge demonstration being held outside our Civic Centre, lucky it was a Saturday and the building was closed.
Perhaps they should put her statue on the sea front in Brighton where she survived a bomb attack by the IRA.
Quote from: bigbaz on February 12, 2013, 18:43:42 PM
tetley, i dont know what world you were living in in the 80´s
i lived in romford and we were all out of work
early part anyway
it only livened up a bit towards the end of the 80´s
then we had john major and went back into recession again
i hated her
Baz 1981 i was un employed just out of mi time (not prison ;D ),got on Norms bike.... started in buisness and proud to have rolled my life dice during the thatcher years as for the rest of the poliys.....sex pistols ( never mind the bxllxcks ) :tiphat:
ps i havent voted since they kicked her out because i think there all full of xxxx ie all partys and whats the point anyway in voteing if they kick out the person you vote for befor the term had finished.
what about all the northern wastelands tetley
all the manufacturing she got rid of
there was loads of unemployment with her
3 mill if i remember rightly
getting the police to attack miners
yeah she was great
she ruined the uk as far as im concerned
im no expert in these matters
but it sounds to me
webejammin has got it dead right
Have to agree with Bigbaz, she created a situation where she could take on the unions on her own terms, first thing she did was give the police a
big pay rise so she had them on her side. She was responsible for council houses being sold off and preventing the building of replacements, the building
industry ground to a halt in the early eighties. All the utility companies were sold off and are now foreign owned. In my opinion she created the " I'm all right
Jack " attitude that thrives in the UK as epitomised in Tetley's worshipping of her.I am not a fanatic for any politics but I think she as a lot to answer for.
Selling off the council houses ? I wonder how many of you slagging her off are living in spain off the money you made from your council house sale .? Greatest prime minister ever bar churchill i say.
Member of my family was a copper at the time of the miners strike. He loved it , said he had never had so much money pouring into his bank account. The longer they keep it up the better was his motto.
Scargill sertainly led the miners up the garden path, they were on strike getting no wages but he was still on £60,000 a year and even now he will not give up his perks!!!
All those comunities destroyed, all of them being paid dole money, when they were working they were at least paying taxes and keeping families together.
300 years worth of coal down there and the UK imports it.Why the UK wants to rave about "green" when the US of A won't sign up to it is crazy. They are looking after themselves and could not care less about the 51st state (UK)
I have never lived in a council house but did profit from the increase in value of private houses during her regime because of the
conditions she created, something I would have preferred not to happen because of the difficulties created for my children.
Quote from: bigbaz on February 12, 2013, 21:21:43 PM
what about all the northern wastelands tetley
all the manufacturing she got rid of
there was loads of unemployment with her
3 mill if i remember rightly
getting the police to attack miners
yeah she was great
she ruined the uk as far as im concerned
im no expert in these matters
but it sounds to me
webejammin has got it dead right
Baz ref the northan wastlands... who is going to work for the china mans money in the wastlands..... nobody
why & how did 250k polish foks find work at 5 quid an hour wile the Brits layed in bed....
can you realy imagine the uk run by the likes of king Arthur,Red Robo,wile the likes of Branson ,Suger are kept on market stalls ?
the problem is with the UK and life in genral is that when people do not get what thay set out for or think they are entiltled to its always some one else thats caused there problem in there owne veiw wich is often not the case.
i know plenty of kids from the wastlelands who set out under Thatcher with nothing and have done very well.
Quote from: pagan on February 12, 2013, 22:55:31 PM
I have never lived in a council house but did profit from the increase in value of private houses during her regime because of the
conditions she created, something I would have preferred not to happen because of the difficulties created for my children.
Pagan the difficultys for your children and everybody elses may have been caused by the false new labour boom.... were they kept intrest rates to low instead of applying a fiscal break to the econamy and making easy money more difficult and more expensive to borrow, instead they fueled an over priced housing market / false boom / feel good vote winner and then helped bust the banking system because they stood by and allowed the banks to lend 25k to 20 year old Dawn a part time shop worker on 3.76 per hour whom didnt have a hope in hell or repaying the loans.
:tiphat:
O and wile were on the case
Bro Arthur... did he put the strike to ballot....NO .... did he split the union as a result ...Yes (udm )
how many years have passed since the terrible strike that layed waste to mineing comunitys.... 29 years ish.... how many goverments have we had since whom have throwne money into UK manufacturing in the area,s.....an re built them.....?
:tiphat:
ive got a headache
Tetley I can remember in the 80's when my kids were teenagers they were inundated with literature from the banks/ building
societies offering loans /mortgages that would have been impossible for them to manage and but for the advice of myself and
my wife they could well have fallen prey to. Again this was part of Thatcher's society!!
Quote from: pagan on February 12, 2013, 22:22:32 PM
, she created a situation where she could take on the unions on her own terms, first thing she did was give the police a big pay rise so she had them on her side. She was responsible for council houses being sold off
Absolutely! She was smart to take the Unions on from a position of strength (unlike that dimwit giant egoed Scargill). The Unions had a history of causing trouble by dictating to the country their excessive demands and the pathetic Socialists simpered up to them as they needed their votes. As far as police attacking miners - m ore like the other way round - the flying pickets restricted any freedom of the individual to choose to work or not - they were bullying innocent people trying to get to work. Council estates - certainly in the Manchester area were in many cases dumps where there was seemingly little pride as is often the case where people rent - they dont care about the property or garden as they don't own them. Look at these places today they are a world apart with people taking pride in ownership. Maggie wasn't perfect but she was a true leader unlike the wimps we have today. Not sure I like the idea of wasting thousands of £s on a marble statue of any PM but I do think that it is a little sad that Grantam have rejected it - whether they like it or not it is part of their heritage and who knows a few tourists might visit bringing some needed business.
Getting a mortgage in the 60/70s was not an easy task, because there were some very sensible restrictions on lending. Most mortgages were from building societies at a rate lower than the bank rate.
The GLC were allowing their houses to be sold off long before the "right to buy" They would even give you a mortgage, as would other London councils.
It was only after Thatcher got the population in the mortgage mode that the banking system was given a free hand and interest rates started to fly.
The banks couldn't lose, the stock market soared, and the yuppies were born "LOADSAMONEY" remember? reposessions, the begining of the end of a great nation, you know the rest, Lawson, well, need I go on?
Remember this, The rich are still getting richer, no matter how bad things are, or how hard you struggle, they are raking it in. "LOADSAMONEY" :tiphat:
Talk to any socialist or Labour supporter in the Uk labour have never been in goverment so you cant blame Labour for anything its always someones else's money or mistakes.
I have just come back from the UK, recession what recession every where people spending and half the worlds population cleaning cars on every road/street.
Most wouldnt know who Maggie was anyway. :tiphat:
Orsinosouth: You forget that Maggie described Basildon as 'little Moscow down the Thames' before she withdrew most of the Services from the area.
She was responsible for selling the country assets, a one off. That's why we now rely on our necessities from other countries.
She was responsible for the Falklands war by removing one frigate that patrolled there giving Argentina that Britain was no longer interested in the islands. All those deaths and extreme expense since.
Quote from: Duffs on February 13, 2013, 18:12:12 PM
She was responsible for the Falklands war by removing one frigate that patrolled there giving Argentina that Britain was no longer interested in the islands. All those deaths and extreme expense since.
I must admit that was a mistake. We should have used tactical nuclear weapons & I hope that Cameron has pointed that out to Cristina in case she wants another go.
I find it quite strange that, if your against the tories you are a communist, I supose it goes back to the old "reds under the bed" era. It's a weak reply to strong arguement, a last resort. For the life of me, I've never understood how working class people can see theselves as tories. I know so many people that have voted tory, only to end up out of a job, or their business going to the wall, just like everyone else, but, "there's nowt so Queer as folk" :tiphat:
It's been a good debate, with no tempers lost nor foul feelings. Thank you :tiphat: :)
Quote from: webejamin on February 13, 2013, 18:51:00 PM
I've never understood how working class people can see theselves as tories. I know so many people that have voted tory,
Right so all "working class" should vote Labour then?! Anyway who do you label as working class? Working class is a ridiculous label these days as it is meaningless. Are you working class because you have manual work or is it how much you earn? Is a plumber working class? I can assure you that my local plumber certainly isnt , he is well educated and extremely well off financially. It means nothing nowadays and people that use such labels are living in the past. There is certainly a widening gap of the haves and have nots. Couples both in work with low interest rates on mortgages and little savings are doing extremely well whereas if only the husband has full time work or retired with a bit saved times can be difficult. Haves and have nots are no longer class related and nor is their political inclination IMO.
I also fail to see how Brother Blair payed 375k tax on 10 mills worth of earnings been a true to his values.... both the torys and labour are same xxxx diffrent day for most.... hence the lack of intrest in voteing.
Jabba Cat made the best point so far.... there is still plenty of money in the UK floating around and the only people whom rember and debate Thatcher is our generation ie the one since the war that has taken the most out of UK PLC.
as for Jabbas other comment on Labours self deniel of never been in power and its all the old eaton toffs that nxckerd the UK spot on again .
and as for the working man voteing tory... it simple... there seen as lower cost to the taxpayer.
Working class is just that, the people that have to work for a living and can be hired and fired. There are a lot of people that traditionally see themselves as middle class, like shop keepers and small business people but they are working class really. One thing they have in common is, that at the drop of a hat they can all be broke and jobless.
I've never said that everyone should vote Labour and yes the class terms are dated as far as the working classes are concerned, but just try telling that to the ruling classes ;D now there's another one ;D
I wonder how many miners voted for their fate? just hear the cops squealing now!
We can debate it till the cows come home, but it won't change a thing. People in the UK are only just begining to learn the meaning of squeeze and it's going to remind them just where their place is in society :'( and who puts them there :'(
Still a good debate ;D :tiphat:
just out of intrest posters.... what did you all do for a job in the UK i was in heavey enginnering as a kid then self employed the reason i ask is it may explain how Mrs T affected folks in diffrent ways ie have we got ony public sector workers,union officals,self employed on this dabate ? :tiphat:
I think it might be obvious that I was a Police Officer from some of my posts and I served 27yrs. 1974/2001 :clap:
Nibbler :tiphat:
Quote from: nibbler on February 14, 2013, 07:25:17 AM
I think it might be obvious that I was a Police Officer from some of my posts and I served 27yrs. 1974/2001 :clap:
Nibbler :tiphat:
Nibbler just out of intrest... as a cop under Thatcher do you think there was less crime ? i never had any shop shutters until 1992 and i had my first alarm fitted in 1989.
do you also think there was more respect for the police then ? ... ie a young thug today taking the xxxx on mobile phone to wind the cop up into giving him a pension loosing slap or mouthing off in the back of the sprinter telling everybody abought his / her rights or was the non respect just as bad back then.
:tiphat:
also please a .. question for the rest of the panel... if the trade unions had have won there 80,s battles with Thatcher were would the UK have been today.... socalist Utopia ? caring state were Bevins cradle to the grave looked after is policy ? an even bigger big brother bigger bust state ?
a UK with more sympathy for the USSR and the doctrins of comunism ?
thanks :tiphat:
Quote from: Tetley on February 14, 2013, 07:57:03 AM
[quote author=nibbler link=topic=72003.msg380125#msg380125 date=1360826717
also please a .. question for the rest of the panel... if the trade unions had have won there 80,s battles with Thatcher were would the UK have been today.... socalist Utopia ? caring state were Bevins cradle to the grave looked after is policy ? an even bigger big brother bigger bust state ?
a UK with more sympathy for the USSR and the doctrins of comunism ?
thanks :tiphat:
Who knows and who cares- we are where we are. It's just speculation and personal opinion and a complete waste of time thinking about it - boring!!!!!
Good post Norm2. :tiphat:
Quote from: Norm2 on February 14, 2013, 08:35:27 AM
Quote from: Tetley on February 14, 2013, 07:57:03 AM
[quote author=nibbler link=topic=72003.msg380125#msg380125 date=1360826717
also please a .. question for the rest of the panel... if the trade unions had have won there 80,s battles with Thatcher were would the UK have been today.... socalist Utopia ? caring state were Bevins cradle to the grave looked after is policy ? an even bigger big brother bigger bust state ?
a UK with more sympathy for the USSR and the doctrins of comunism ?
thanks :tiphat:
Who knows and who cares- we are where we are. It's just speculation and personal opinion and a complete waste of time thinking about it - boring!!!!!
Then you could say that about the complete thread, or any thread for that matter ?
Quote from: nibbler link=topic=72003.msg380125#msg380125 date=1360826717
Then you could say that about the complete thread, or any thread for that matter ?
/quote]
There are a great number of very informative posts - not just ones asking for idol speculation.
Tetley
i think that if thatcher lost her battle against the unions it would have only postponed the inevitable -see ussr
My pnly objection to thatcher was that she destroyed an industry that could have been modernised
as another poster said the uk is built on coal with huge reserves and no need to import it
Also it was regrettable that she sold off the utilities and allowed the uk fishermen to sell off their boats so other countries could plunder the north sea
Thatcher was never going to lose. She just should have known when to stop and how far to go thats all.
"What if" mean nothing, "what is" is important and matters today.
Very good topic keyser soze, your last post say's it all.
I would still love to have her statue in my garden :) I mean it :tiphat: but if I cant have it and it goes to Basildon, I shall go there to see it (if I'm quick enough) ;D
I had great misgivings about some of the things that she did at the time and also felt that some her actions led to the unnecessary loss of jobs and sections of industry.
However, one should also never forget the role of some of the trade unions in the loss of jobs and parts of industry. They also had a self destruct button.
Richard
To be honest keyser your post pardon the pun is a bit of a red hearing :)
im a Hull lad and it was the labour government that finished the fishing by backing down to iceland in 1976. i was at school in the arly 70,s and still owne a house on the banks of the humber,i can rember all the side winder trawlers going out and coming back to unload and then the bigger ships mid 70,s i also rember the bigger ships been towed in with the front ends off after a scirmish.
ref manufacturing... my favourite sublect and vocation
i served my time at Priestmans hull i can rember the mangment bringing in new japanease machine centres that put 3 turners and 2 millers out of work,i also rember the cnc burners coming inand co2 programable welding all in the name of progress and all lead to redundancy,i also rember our reps were the co was stuggling to compeat with the asian manfactors telling how they attended plant sales exabtions and how the jap excavotor sellers would lay megga money mink coats under the machines to prove there were no oil leaks,hence pristmans eventualy went as the manufacturing fire from the east took hold. again another hobby of mine is vintage brit bikes / bikes,i have a video of the norton triumph chairman po po ing the japs bikes,the fact that a honda 125 twin could match a brit 350 at less mony and more reliable electrics seems to have been lost and the rest as the saying goes is history.
now for todays manufatoring as always its down to cost the uk is what it is the high tec stuff we still turn out but im afraid you small low tec operations will never be able to undercut the far east.... most countrys have come to terms with this hence most thing are made in china even if there main assemble is elswer
and all the above was pre Thatcher.
as for coal... well its stil down there and who knowes what the boffins in whitehall have lined up for it.
:tiphat:
don't misunderstand me Tetley, the unions in general were an arrogant nightmare. However, their arrogance was certainly matched by "the management" of the countries major industries
The unions needed to br reigned in, as in the print unions etc etc but not destroyed.
unfortunately, neither side wanted to see a middle ground
Keyser to be fair they were diffrent times and i think employers & employee,s have moved on together and now in most cases work in`partnership always looking at the bigger picture certainly in the private sector.
:tiphat:
As I recall during the Mrs T reign it was all going to be the land of milk and honey. North sea oil revenues, selling off of British Gas, Telecoms, railways to name just a few. The great council house sale and the 'promise' that everyone who owned their home would be a millionaire by 2000. Yes, I worked in the Civil Service sector undertaking weapon testing prior to the Falkland conflict. Came back from a three week trial to discover that my establishment was being privatized. Thanks a lot Mrs T. And yes I was also chairman of the Union. However in my experience most unions try to work with management for the good and protection of all sides, taking industrial action and giving up wages is not a step taken lightly. In regard to Labour I would not agree with everything they do, An illegal war in Iraq and the debacle that is Afghanistan costing avoidable loss of life and billions in treasure. The one thing I can say about Mrs T is that she can be likened to marmite.
More wise words keyser soze and hotphot, we must be of the same blood group :tiphat:
Quote from: Tetley on February 14, 2013, 14:17:12 PM
Keyser to be fair they were diffrent times and i think employers & employee,s have moved on together and now in most cases work in`partnership always looking at the bigger picture certainly in the private sector.
:tiphat:
Tetley - you paraphrase my post @ 9.30am. We are where we are!!!
Thatcher
This subject always produces heated debate.
She was without doubt a very opinionated person who did not take advice from anyone.
The result was that she came over as a strong Prime Minister, but it also meant that she often made decisions without regard to the consequences.
There is no doubt that she was the most unpopular Prime Minister who only stayed in office because of the splits and incompetence of the Labour opposition, and aided by the aftermath of the Falkland conflict, which history has shown was unnecessary.
The period of her reign was marked by economic chaos and social strife, facts often forgotten by her supporters.
ECONOMIC CHAOS
For all her reign she was in constant conflict with each of her Chancellors, with the Treasury, and with most economic advisers. At one point over 300 economists wrote an open letter opposing her policies, including Mervyn King the present Governor of the Bank of England.
In her first budget in 1980 she increased taxes and reduced government spending. The result was a doubling of unemployment to 3 million.
In the late 80's there was an economic boom, but it was accompanied by high inflation and high interest rates.
This boom was funded by a period of easy money, loans offered irrespective of the ability to make the repayments secured against an anticipated continual rise in property values.
A typical boom and bust policy.
Black Wednesday in 1992 saw the pound go into free fall, and it cost the treasury 3.3 billion to save it.
She cut funding to higher education, the life blood of a modern advanced economy.
She defeated the miners at huge financial cost, including the destruction of the coal industry, leaving Britain today having to import almost all its energy needs.
She de regulated most of the public services and sold off the utilities. The result was a lot of money made by a few people but no public control over ever rising fuel and other costs.
And with all this income, including the money from North Sea oil and gas, nothing was invested in our industrial base. Instead it was used to fuel a consumer boom.
One personal experience was when I was on the Transport Committee of Greater Manchester Council. We had a large well maintained fleet of buses, and regular contract for replacements with local industry (Leyland Bus and Northern Counties) and a network of maintenance garages at which we ran an active apprenticeship scheme, with a job at the end.
Then Thatcher de regulated. The result was operators coming into the market running clapped out buses taking the profitable routes, leaving no country services, no new buses being ordered and an end to apprenticeships.
The Thatcher legacy was the collapse of local industry and the destruction of apprenticeships.
SOCIAL UNREST
Remember St Paul's in Bristol in 1980
Brixton in 1981
Toxteth in 1981
Manchester in 1981
Handsworth in 1985
Broadwater Farm in 1985
I was a teacher in central Manchester in 1981. Many of my former pupils were involved in these riots. They left school with great ambition but soon found the YTS work placement ended after 6 months and there was no work after.
The result was anger and frustration, and the legacy in Britain today is a generation with no experience of worthwhile work and no useful industrial training.
COUNCIL HOUSE SALES
She made a lot of Council tenants rich, and on this I do not object.
But she insisted on taking the income into the treasury and prevented local councils using it to build more houses. The result was a collapse in social housing, forcing many people to take on mortgages they could not afford, pushing the cost of houses to astronomic levels, and forcing many into private renting, often leaving the taxpayer to pay subsidies to the private landlords., a problem the country is still facing today.
INTERNATIONALLY
She refused to support sanctions against the apartheid regime in South Africa.
She supported General Pinochet against his crimes in Chile.
THE LEGACY
When she left office in 1990 she left behind an inflation rate of 10%, the same as she inherited.
She left a country dependent on the financial sector, because manufacturing industry had collapsed, except for the car industry which was then in foreign ownership.
Apprenticeships were a memory of the past.
And a million families dependent on the taxpayer because they had been left behind by economic change.
A housing crisis.
The sad thing is that her successors have not had the guts or intelligence to sort out the mess she left behind.
They continued the consumer led boom, continued to de regulated financial services, did not invest quickly enough in industrial recovery, left the housing crisis to go un-resolved, thus leading to the inevitable economic melt down.
Tetley,with regard to your question,it's difficult to say as each force had their own problems.
I served in Cambridgeshire.not known for it violence but I was also part of a Police support unit which travelled the country when other forces needed help.
I was involved in the Inner City riots the miners strike and the big anti nuclear demo's at Molesworth and Alcobury.(both in Cambs) It was certainly a time of civil unrest.
I have to say that although my force was not known for too much trouble I did work in a town that had a fair number of violent criminals (St,Neots)
It was always kept in the town though and although rough a female of any age could walk along the street without any fear.
I myself had no real problems as I always treated everyone in a way that I expected them to treat me.
You mentioned respect,as far as I am concerned respect has to be earned,the problem with young officers today is (imo) they put a uniform on and automaticly expect it.
Prior to joining the Police I was employed on the railway and as it was a closed shop had to join a union,and I will admit that I never ever went on strike as it was against all my principles but the union bosses called one for the most minute problem.
If other industries were subject to the same union antics I am not surprized they went the way they did and I say Amen to that.
Nibbler :tiphat:
Thanks Nibbler :tiphat:
Roger you make Jabba cats point to perfection ie Labour and the socalists in denial ;) perhaps you can know tell us all how we would have progressed under the 40 rule of kinnock,foot,blair ,unions off the lead and folks like brother scargil running uk industry.
Put it in the melt an chuck old milk snatcher in after it
Quote from: roboman on February 14, 2013, 17:44:14 PM
Put it in the melt an chuck old milk snatcher in after it
Rob o no not the school milk as well ;D
Not the milk, that bloody woman, gotta say she did a good job on the Falklands
Quote from: roboman on February 14, 2013, 18:23:55 PM
Not the milk, that bloody woman, gotta say she did a good job on the Falklands
yer but she stopped mi school milk ;D
(ps cars great thanks :tiphat: )
Excellent view on the subject Roger and well expressed. Thanks for the reminders :tiphat:
Quote from: Tetley on February 14, 2013, 18:27:01 PMQuote from: roboman on February 14, 2013, 18:23:55 PMNot the milk, that bloody woman,
yer but she stopped mi school milk ;D
- - -and not before time - - -lukewarm school milk in 1/3 pint bottles - forced to drink it - - yuk - -disgusting! ::)
Tetley, unless my memory is playing tricks, which is not impossible, I do not recall Kinnock or Foot ever being PM
Quote from: hotphot on February 14, 2013, 19:43:12 PM
Tetley, unless my memory is playing tricks, which is not impossible, I do not recall Kinnock or Foot ever being PM
your memory is correct,however my question was.... to Rog for his veiw ... what if we would have had a 40 year labour socalist rule including the thought of brother kinnock and foot at the helm would we all be booming now ;)
Quote from: Tetley on February 14, 2013, 20:50:16 PM
Quote from: hotphot on February 14, 2013, 19:43:12 PM
Tetley, unless my memory is playing tricks, which is not impossible, I do not recall Kinnock or Foot ever being PM
your memory is correct,however my question was.... to Rog for his veiw ... what if we would have had a 40 year labour socalist rule including the thought of brother kinnock and foot at the helm would we all be booming now ;)
Ahh we will never know the answer to that question. 650 MP's over 800 in the Lords all with their collective snouts in the trough, not to mention MEP's it would be interesting to get rid of the whole lot of them and let the Civil Service run the country on a 5 year contract. Most Governments have little effect on a country's economic performance although through bad policies they can certainly screw things up. World events tend to effect output more than anything else.
Every time i go into the ayueitmetio i see Roger our hero doing good for our community and guess what he gets involved with what Thatcher did 20 odd years ago why .well a least you show your true colours a true Labour man through and through i will now watch you very carefully in the near future with regards to what you say and do,
Roger you forget that every penny you earned as a public servant was paid by us in the private sector and thanks to her i and may others were allowed to expand free of restrictions enabling us to make money employ people and to be taxed to pay for for the public services of i assume you worked for most of your life,
Roger there are time when silence should be golden :tiphat:
Jabba i think you have just tipped Norm 2 over the edge with that one . :lol:
Quote from: jabba the cat on February 14, 2013, 21:20:22 PM
Every time i go into the ayueitmetio i see Roger our hero doing good for our community and guess what he gets involved with what Thatcher did 20 odd years ago why .well a least you show your true colours a true Labour man through and through i will now watch you very carefully in the near future with regards to what you say and do,
Roger you forget that every penny you earned as a public servant was paid by us in the private sector and thanks to her i and may others were allowed to expand free of restrictions enabling us to make money employ people and to be taxed to pay for for the public services of i assume you worked for most of your life,
Roger there are time when silence should be golden :tiphat:
"Reds under the bed" "McCarthyism" Roger, The old rednecks are at it again.If you had been a tory, anything would go :rofl: :tiphat:
99.99% of all 'politicians/ union leaders,etc' have a vested interest of one thing or another. Whether it is idealism, fanaticism,power, etc. Sometimes it is immediately apparent, other times you have to wait for years. There is always a vested interest , even if they cannot see it themselves or wouldn't describe it that way.
I always look at anything /one/proposal etc; & think firstly , what is in it for them ? There will always be something.
Good thinking gus-lopez, it's made me think, Why do I get up in the morning? I supose there must be a reason ???
Quote from: webejamin on February 15, 2013, 08:27:28 AM
Good thinking gus-lopez, it's made me think, Why do I get up in the morning? I supose there must be a reason ???
Actually when you do think about it there isn't any point. Why are we here ? I've thought about since I was a child & there is no point to any of it.
Just waiting to die now. :wave
There are moments though Gus (if I may be so forward) when, sitting in a bar, with a pint of beer before me and I think "no, not yet, I'll drink this first") so there are some reasons for living :drinks: :wave :tiphat:
Guss what colour would you like to be dyed :lol:... i think il go for a Blue reince ;D
The only thing most politicians and union leaders have in common is a vested interest in the status quo and we are
not talking about rocking all over the world
Insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Maintaining the status quo is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting the same result.
Protecting the status quo when it fails again and again should lead to outrage but rarely does
And I like it, I like it, I like it, I like it
I li-li-li-like it, li-li-li-li
Here we go
Rockin' all over the world
They are also passionately interested in change though, because when they make changes to things like the NHS and other huge institutions, it costs a lot of money. Thats why they strive to make changes as soon as they take charge, even cost saving costs loadsamoney, money that finds it's way into their own or close buddies bank accounts. It's just that the tories are better at it, because it's born onto them, those that get caught just think it was born into them :tiphat:
Look folks the Torys,Labour and co are mostly full of xxxx and if you put your avrage councilour in front of a bank manger,asked him to hock his or her house on the strengh of implementing there idea,s whey would probably get fast on the way out tying to run through the revolving bank doors wile trying to make a quik exit
the labour socalists speciallize in spending everybodys money but there own to the extent of busting the system and the torys specialize in looking after number 1 and protecting there time hounard privalage.
the subject was Thatcher and what i see is a young women from a modest background and through here own steel and endevour rose to the top wich to me is what been Quintessentially British is all abought ie getting stuck in and living it .
im just looking forward to one day getting someone with steel to vote for again instead of the dish cloths we have now
suns out...im mending kettles to day... have a nice day folks :tiphat:
Quote from: Tetley on February 15, 2013, 11:19:26 AM
Look folks the Torys,Labour and co are mostly full of xxxx and if you put your avrage councilour in front of a bank manger,asked him to hock his or her house on the strengh of implementing there idea,s whey would probably get fast on the way out tying to run through the revolving bank doors wile trying to make a quik exit
the labour socalists speciallize in spending everybodys money but there own to the extent of busting the system and the torys specialize in looking after number 1 and protecting there time hounard privalage.
the subject was Thatcher and what i see is a young women from a modest background and through here own steel and endevour rose to the top wich to me is what been Quintessentially British is all abought ie getting stuck in and living it .
im just looking forward to one day getting someone with steel to vote for again instead of the dish cloths we have now
suns out...im mending kettles to day... have a nice day folks :tiphat:
+1
& as I've always said they should all be personally liable.
Quote from: webejamin on February 15, 2013, 09:13:02 AM
There are moments though Gus (if I may be so forward) when, sitting in a bar, with a pint of beer before me and I think "no, not yet, I'll drink this first") so there are some reasons for living :drinks: :wave :tiphat:
When you don't do that there aren't many options. I sit there thinking wtf is this all about ?
Most people have a very poor opinion of all politicians.
This is understandable, given all the bad news.
But remember you only hear about the politicians who are on the take, not the rest who you hear nothing about.
As for Party allegiance, this is a debate about the Thatcher years. What I published is either facts from official histories, or my own factual experience.
If it had been a debate about the Blair years I would have been very very critical.
The message is that political parties are made up of people of different abilities, opinions and honesty. Just like the rest of life.
The problem is that often the people who rise to the top are not the most able but the ones with the least enemies and with the most photogenic personality.
I am old enough to remember when RAB Butler failed to become Tory Prime Minister despite being the most competent politician available.
And who is to blame if we get poor leaders.
The public who refuse to take enough interest in politics.
Roger
very genuine question
if she had of been one of your ex students would you have been proud of her achivment in rising to the top from a modest background ?
:tiphat:
If you can keep your head when all around you are losing theirs and blaming it on you
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nearly there keyser soze
Quote from: jabba the cat on February 14, 2013, 21:20:22 PM
Roger you forget that every penny you earned as a public servant was paid by us in the private sector and thanks to her i and may others were allowed to expand free of restrictions enabling us to make money employ people and to be taxed to pay for for the public services of i assume you worked for most of your life,
:tiphat:
So you believe that workers in the public sector don't pay income tax, National Insurance contributions, council tax, car excise duty, VAT?
And don't forget that most people who do well in the private sector do it after receiving free healthcare for life on the NHS and after the benefit of a free state education.
Can you tell us what the deregulated private sector bankers have contributed to our society in the last 10 years or so?
I think you mean public sector/ blue moon.
Ask yourself where the money comes from to pay for the public sector including MPs thats right from tax where does the tax come from thats right by taxing the private sector thats every firm/business's or people employed by them
Then Public employees are paid by money collected by the goverment,
There is no such thing as free education or free NHS these are payed for from my and every UK persons taxes yes public sector do pay taxes NI.VAT road tax council tax but the money they earn originated from the private sector raised by taxes not the funny money tree. :tiphat:
Well I'm just glad that we can all get out in the sun when it suits us ++= There's plenty that can't and never will :tiphat:
Almost there ;D
You're missing the point Jabba. There is no doubt that the private sector generates the wealth. However, in order for the wealth to be created society needs to be secure, healthy and educated. That's why we need hospitals, police services, schools, courts, prisons, highways agencies, fire brigades, ambulance services and an army, a navy and an air force.
Without a healthy public sector the private sector would disintegrate within a matter of weeks.
To be fair i read Jabbas post as pointing out that our councils and governments depts pay masters are the private sector wich in my veiw is correct the private sector is the engine room and wealth genorator of any econamy.... hence why China is a sort of closet capatalist system when it suites... equaly Blue moon you make an exellent point thet without our public sector there is no infrastructer to the system .... so we all have our role to play in both public and private... my issue and i suspect Jabbas issue is when money is blown by mismangment in the public sector with little or no concicuence were as in the private sector... you loose your shirt... and as for banking well they seem to have more balls and front than Tesco,s :handshake
I'm lost again ?
If there is no private sector then where does the money come from to fund the public sector as no one will be paying any tax/NI /vat as they haven't got any money ? ??? Therefore those in the public sector are hardly likely to be working for nothing as there will be no income to pay them & will also be in the same boat without any money !
???
If theres no private sector paying taxes then there is no money for the public services, :tiphat:
Got there then keyser soze, past the 100, well done :tiphat:
That was always the crunch with Maggie, she shut the mines, steelworks and anything else she could shut and put so many into the benefit system, it became unworkable. Thats how we got where we are today, "cause and effect" I think it's called :tiphat:
Pray tell...............what is the price of gold????............or should I ask Brown.
Why can't we kick out thieving, murdering foreign scumbags.......let's ask Tony B. Liar........no answer both hiding under Articule 2,3,6,& 8. HRA.
Me .....covered by Articlue 10.
Enough said all as bad as one another.
Well after reading all this..... i think im on the turn :o ( no im not joining the village people :romance: ) does anybody know were i can buy a statue of Neil Kinnock for the garden ;D...
Goodness me Tetley :o you on the turn :o the thought is enough to send me to church :crazy:
Quote from: Tetley on February 15, 2013, 14:54:28 PM
Roger
very genuine question
if she had of been one of your ex students would you have been proud of her achivment in rising to thmodest background ?
e top from a
:tiphat:
Come on then Rog.. you have the last word now the debates closing.... would you have been proud of here yes or no ? as per my above question.
:tiphat: :handshake
I think that if she had been one of Rogers students, he would feel a sense of shame, that he could have failed to teach her to be a decent caring person.
Even her own party grew to hate her and threw her to the wolves :) :tiphat:
Quote from: webejamin on February 17, 2013, 10:27:20 AM
I think that if she had been one of Rogers students, he would feel a sense of shame, that he could have failed to teach her to be a decent caring person.
Even her own party grew to hate her and threw her to the wolves :) :tiphat:
its not a political question,im just asking if Rog had have taught her would he have been proud of playing a part in here achivment,ie modest background then getting stuck in and rising to the top. :tiphat: :handshake
Sorry Tetley, I couldn't resist it ;D :handshake :tiphat: