Its disappeared ??
Thought it was quite good, the way it was !
Just watching the BBC coverage, very surprising he wasn't knighted or made a saint !
Mentioned many times, its not how or what you do in life, its how you finish your life, hope for all you sinners out there.
I would like to see the quote as well - why was it taken down?
It was not taken down by admin but by Hogs as he said and explained above.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland
some forum members lived it,otheres fought over it,and some of us watched it on tv,our Queen shook his hand,history and his God will judge him now.
Martin and Ian will be remiscising now about the OLD days.
Quote from: Hogs on March 21, 2017, 07:36:46 AM
Phillip
I removed it for a edit and rewrite,
Hogsy :039:
So when will it be re-posted following the edit and rewrite?
so why did you take that down...or have you changed it...that is o so...Karma has taken to long..in my humble opinion the man has been stealing our air for 30 odd years..
Quote"First and foremost, Martin McGuinness was a much loved husband, father and grandfather. My thoughts and prayers are with his wife and the family circle at this very painful time of grief and loss."
The man was instrumental in the peace process, and will be missed.
My husband did 15 tours of Belfast with the Parachute Regiment, my son did 4 tours with the same regiment where he was injured..My uncle was very badly injured in the Lisneskea, Co Fermanagh bombing....I suspect we will all be celebrating tonight, just wish it had been a long protracted death. I make no apologies for my post.
Fidget.
Mate, I wouldn't normally comment about politics on this or any other forum but there's no chuffing way I couldn't add to your excellent comments. The man was the worst type of so-called human who should have been targeted by the SAS or SBS years ago, preferably to die slowly in exquisite pain. I was working in the Admiralty from 1969 to 1976 and saw much of the misery, pain and suffering caused by the scum who were part of his organisation - the OAB, St James' Park Bandstand, MOD, hotels and even the bloody Anti Vivisection store in Whitehall were among the many places attacked that greatly affected me, my family and workmates. The tension one felt when going into a pub and seeing an unattended bag (on one occasion my girlfriend was to blame lol!) and memories of Woolwich, Manchester, Birmiongham are still raw.
I wish there really was a Hell for (expletive deleted) like him.
Anyway, thanks for posting this.
J.
Yet another outpouring of bile and hatred from the usual suspects.
I ain't gonna get into a row with anyone, but just remember, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
Quote from: nic.spato on March 21, 2017, 11:43:46 AM
Yet another outpouring of bile and hatred from the usual suspects.
I ain't gonna get into a row with anyone, but just remember, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
I am not a usual or indeed unusual suspect to stop tarring people rite the same brush, nor is it an outpouring of bile, opinions, isn't that what a forum is for?
Quote from: fidgetmidget on March 21, 2017, 11:47:37 AM
Quote from: nic.spato on March 21, 2017, 11:43:46 AM
Yet another outpouring of bile and hatred from the usual suspects.
I ain't gonna get into a row with anyone, but just remember, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
I am not a usual or indeed unusual suspect to stop tarring people rite the same brush, nor is it an outpouring of bile, opinions, isn't that what a forum is for?
Not meaning to be rude but wishing someone a slow and painful death is hardly expressing an opinion.
Unless you want conflict for ever and a day, there comes a point where you have to move forward towards a more peaceful position. This is going to include some hard decisions and compromise, and that is an unfortunate fact of life. :08:
There is no excuse or reason to plant a bomb and kill innocent men, women and children.
( nic.spato Not a freedom fighter, a coward. )
He should have been shot years ago, selse would have come forward for the "so called" peace process.
Sadly this generation seem to relish living in the past , it is much easier than making the effort to move forward.
Everything is someones fault(never ours) and they always want someone else to fix things for them.
Everyone else is a bad guy, there is only ever one side to any story or argument, anybody taking an opposite view has to be labelled because it is easier to deride than listen to the opinions of others.
Although they make good internet warriors, because it takes very little effort.
I have just spent 4 weeks in a secure Mental Health unit , surrounded by those recovering from overdoses of all kinds, people trying to live with the demons of their past,
people who believe they have no worth and do not belong in society, and yet there was more positive energy within that unit than there is in the 'real world'.
You only have to look at the discussion on the forum for the past year, they are filled with negative comments, this is simply another example.
Somewhere where everyone can come together and slap each other on the back whilst condemning the common enemy.
There is nothing wrong with reminding people what people have done in the past, hopefully this stops the like forming the future.
Oh BTW, Hitler wasn't that bad after all !!
Quote from: PhillipJLloyd on March 21, 2017, 12:17:29 PM
There is nothing wrong with reminding people what people have done in the past, hopefully this stops the like forming the future.
Oh BTW, Hitler wasn't that bad after all !!
kind of proves my point really
I like things the way they are, relatively peaceful. If that's down to McGuinness and Blair, then good on em :bravo_2: It's an old story, where Kings, Queens and politicians create problems and the plebs have to pay for it. :72:
As has been stated by nic.spato, "One mans terrorist, is another mans freedom fighter". That's the truth of the matter, whether we like it or not :72:
Peace is better :08:
Trev, I agree to a point, but we have to try and learn from our past, and unless we know the mistakes ,how are we going to learn ??
Well,I can't really comment about the history of this forum since I haven't been on it that long but...but, I do not see the relevance of your comments with regard to this particular thread. Re-reading the comments, I see truly negative comments by three people who have each expressed that they were personally affected by the man's terrorist activities (which, of course, includes me).
Is it to be wondered at if such people find it hard to find any form of forgiveness for someone who actively condoned the mindless slaughter of innocents, who effectively waged war against our country?
I can forgive much but that's a step too far. Sorry I can't be Christian about this. No bile, no hatred towards anyone except those who have stepped beyond the pale of acceptable humanity, and no offense meant to any here.
J
Quote from: nic.spato on March 21, 2017, 11:43:46 AM
Yet another outpouring of bile and hatred from the usual suspects.
I ain't gonna get into a row with anyone, but just remember, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
He wasn't a "terrorist" or a "freedom fighter" just murdered others & arranged the murder of others.
Quote from: Angleseyite on March 21, 2017, 11:56:09 AM
Unless you want conflict for ever and a day, there comes a point where you have to move forward towards a more peaceful position. This is going to include some hard decisions and compromise, and that is an unfortunate fact of life. :08:
That's why you should wipe all out from the begining.
Quote from: gus-lopez on March 21, 2017, 12:47:30 PM
Quote from: nic.spato on March 21, 2017, 11:43:46 AM
Yet another outpouring of bile and hatred from the usual suspects.
I ain't gonna get into a row with anyone, but just remember, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
He wasn't a "terrorist" or a "freedom fighter" just murdered others & arranged the murder of others.
Quote from: Angleseyite on March 21, 2017, 11:56:09 AM
Unless you want conflict for ever and a day, there comes a point where you have to move forward towards a more peaceful position. This is going to include some hard decisions and compromise, and that is an unfortunate fact of life. :08:
That's why you should wipe all out from the begining.
...
Its good to have the opinion of a well educated person once in a while :57:
Quote from: PhillipJLloyd on March 21, 2017, 12:24:29 PM
Trev, I agree to a point, but we have to try and learn from our past, and unless we know the mistakes ,how are we going to learn ??
My apologies, I realize my post was just as negative as those it was aimed at :c029:
I agree that we need to learn the lessons of the past, but more than most I know that simply carrying the negativity of the past with you does more harm than good.
We bear the responsibility of taking those hard lessons of the past and teaching the next generation, not simply passing on our hatred and prejudices, no matter how justified we personally feel they are.
Quote from: Angleseyite on March 21, 2017, 13:01:29 PM
Quote from: gus-lopez on March 21, 2017, 12:47:30 PM
Quote from: nic.spato on March 21, 2017, 11:43:46 AM
Yet another outpouring of bile and hatred from the usual suspects.
I ain't gonna get into a row with anyone, but just remember, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
He wasn't a "terrorist" or a "freedom fighter" just murdered others & arranged the murder of others.
Quote from: Angleseyite on March 21, 2017, 11:56:09 AM
Unless you want conflict for ever and a day, there comes a point where you have to move forward towards a more peaceful position. This is going to include some hard decisions and compromise, and that is an unfortunate fact of life. :08:
That's why you should wipe all out from the begining.
...
Its good to have the opinion of a well educated person once in a while :57:
Reverend Gus López. IEng MIET @ your service. :great:
If you get a moment check out the Lord Norman Tebbit on ITV
Piers Morgan - Do you think he can be forgiven
Lord Tebbit - No in order to be forgiven you have to confess and seek penance he never did that for all his personal murders and the ones he ordered.
Morgan - But all that's in the past he gave it up
Lord Tebbit - He's a murderer
Morgan - Why do you think he gave up the bullet for the ballot box
Lord Tebbit - He was a coward
Morgan - Err I think we'll leave it there
Surly there wouldn't of needed to be a piece process of there hadn't been a war in the first place he just did the full circle .
I do not often comment on items on the forum but I will here.
It must be also remembered that nearly 1000 soldiers were killed in Northern Ireland. Hundreds of civilians in England and NI. It would be an extremely hard thing for anyone affected by death or injury caused by the promoting of the terrorist activities that McGuinness pushed for in the 1970s to forgive them. I doubt I would be able to. So please have some thought to those that have suffered directly from the Troubles. It can be so easy to say forgive them, but when on the receiving end that is virtually impossible to do.
I worked in London at the time, travelling daily on the Northern Line, everyone was looking to see if a bag had been left unattended. I was working not far from the bombing of the barracks in London when the bomb went off. Working in Belfast and Londonderry in 1973 was one of the most scary experiences I have encountered. And I was only there for 12 weeks. How the people of NI got though it all is incredible.
Quote from: felipe on March 21, 2017, 13:21:03 PM
I do not often comment on items on the forum but I will here.
It must be also remembered that nearly 1000 soldiers were killed in Northern Ireland. Hundreds of civilians in England and NI. It would be an extremely hard thing for anyone affected by death or injury caused by the promoting of the terrorist activities that McGuinness pushed for in the 1970s to forgive them. I doubt I would be able to. So please have some thought to those that have suffered directly from the Troubles. It can be so easy to say forgive them, but when on the receiving end that is virtually impossible to do.
I worked in London at the time, travelling daily on the Northern Line, everyone was looking to see if a bag had been left unattended. I was working not far from the bombing of the barracks in London when the bomb went off. Working in Belfast and Londonderry in 1973 was one of the most scary experiences I have encountered. And I was only there for 12 weeks. How the people of NI got though it all is incredible.
I feel that to say it is virtually impossible to forgive is simply avoiding the point that it is exactly what should be happening , how would we , as a race, ever move forward in a peaceful manner if people refused to forgive.
Humans have the ability to love an infinite number of people , therefore we have the ability to forgive and also the ability to hate...it is up to us which we choose.
I always thought Martin McGuiness was a murderer and a terrorist. Now having watched BBC news and listened to Tony Blair's speech, I realise what a wonderful man he was, and how he was always seeking peace. Surely he should get a posthumous medal.
to all those members quoting forgiveness, i wonder if your attitude would have been the same if you had lost a relative as a result of the IRA bombings.
The man was the leader of a terrorist organisation that unreservedly bombed killed and maimed hundreads and hundreads of INNOCENT people.
Quote from: sleepy john on March 21, 2017, 13:34:13 PM
I always thought Martin McGuiness was a murderer and a terrorist. Now having watched BBC news and listened to Tony Blair's speech, I realise what a wonderful man he was, and how he was always seeking peace. Surely he should get a posthumous medal.
:a102:
"I feel that to say it is virtually impossible to forgive is simply avoiding the point that it is exactly what should be happening , how would we , as a race, ever move forward in a peaceful manner if people refused to forgive.
Humans have the ability to love an infinite number of people , therefore we have the ability to forgive and also the ability to hate...it is up to us which we choose."
Oh seriously? OK - so this is my last input. Are you REALLY suggesting that we all 'turn the other cheek' at the evil that surrounds us? Does that include Daesh? Child molesters? Rapists? Serial killers?
Society functions because there is a unspoken and tacit agreement that there are acts which are unconscionable, unacceptable, irredeemable. We shun those who behave in such a way as to threaten or damage the smooth functioning of said society. That's why we have courts, gaols and other sanctions. Much as I dislike the present state of Israel, I cannot disagree with their tenet that war crimes conducted many, many decades ago must still be prosecuted. For me, this applies to those who were responsible for the deaths of innocents, of soldiers and police officers, who were murdered for a "cause" which was never never clear in the first place.
I would suggest that anyone who preaches forgiveness, come what may, has never seen body parts strewn across the road, has never missed being killed by the luck of being a few minutes late, has never been alongside those who have suffered trauma and fear to the highest degree due to assailants unknown who attacked from the shadows and were unrecognisable from the general populace. That's PART of my take on this subject, BTW.
Yes, we need to move forward, yes, we need to accept that the past is the past, BUT, if I commit a crime here, in Spain, I would expect to accept the punishment that the law decrees, should I be caught. To overrule that concept but then to demand that soldiers, under extreme duress, should be investigated decades after the events while their opponents are given a carte blanche for their acts of terror, seriously grates.
Finally - I do not give a toss how involved the cad was in the so-called peace process. He was a murderer, protagonist of hatred and divisionist.
The fact he was never called to account for any of this sickens me.
P.S. : total respect to Fidget for her family's contribution and their sacrifices!
Enjoy the upcoming arguments, people
J
Quote from: twojaysalmeria on March 21, 2017, 14:40:21 PM
"I feel that to say it is virtually impossible to forgive is simply avoiding the point that it is exactly what should be happening , how would we , as a race, ever move forward in a peaceful manner if people refused to forgive.
Humans have the ability to love an infinite number of people , therefore we have the ability to forgive and also the ability to hate...it is up to us which we choose."
Oh seriously? OK - so this is my last input. Are you REALLY suggesting that we all 'turn the other cheek' at the evil that surrounds us? Does that include Daesh? Child molesters? Rapists? Serial killers?
Society functions because there is a unspoken and tacit agreement that there are acts which are unconscionable, unacceptable, irredeemable. We shun those who behave in such a way as to threaten or damage the smooth functioning of said society. That's why we have courts, gaols and other sanctions. Much as I dislike the present state of Israel, I cannot disagree with their tenet that war crimes conducted many, many decades ago must still be prosecuted. For me, this applies to those who were responsible for the deaths of innocents, of soldiers and police officers, who were murdered for a "cause" which was never never clear in the first place.
I would suggest that anyone who preaches forgiveness, come what may, has never seen body parts strewn across the road, has never missed being killed by the luck of being a few minutes late, has never been alongside those who have suffered trauma and fear to the highest degree due to assailants unknown who attacked from the shadows and were unrecognisable from the general populace. That's PART of my take on this subject, BTW.
Yes, we need to move forward, yes, we need to accept that the past is the past, BUT, if I commit a crime here, in Spain, I would expect to accept the punishment that the law decrees, should I be caught. To overrule that concept but then to demand that soldiers, under extreme duress, should be investigated decades after the events while their opponents are given a carte blanche for their acts of terror, seriously grates.
Finally - I do not give a toss how involved the cad was in the so-called peace process. He was a murderer, protagonist of hatred and divisionist.
The fact he was never called to account for any of this sickens me.
P.S. : total respect to Fidget for her family's contribution and their sacrifices!
Enjoy the upcoming arguments, people
J
Yes seriously without forgiveness there is no moving forward..... I have never suggested turning the other cheek.
your suggestion that those who' preach' forgiveness have no personal experience or involvement is very naive.
I was abused as a child..and at 57 it is something that I carry with me every day, I have spent a lifetime hating myself, in and out of institutions.
However I refuse to carry any hatred for the perpetrator(what purpose would that serve me?).
However what I have found is that generally it is not the direct victims that harbor hatred, it is those around them who seem unable to deal with these issues.
My abuser has passed away now , and I attended his funeral and wept real tears for him and his family,my reward for this.......members of my family ostracized me for betraying them in this way and have not spoken to me since.
Hate him if you will but he was instrumental in the peace process and to be honest you have to be concerned for future peace without him.
McGuinness was a cold and calculating man full of hate , who sanctioned extreme violence in the hope of achieving his political aims.
If I had lost loved ones to acts of terrorism committed by the likes of McGuinness, I could never forgive them. Placing bombs knowing full well that people will be killed or seriously injured, is unforgivable.
I agree with twojaysalmeria's comment :
" The fact that he was never called to account for any of this sickens me " . :clap:
Trev,
I admire your forgiving nature towards someone who caused you much suffering but I think you are in the minority.
Quote from: zilnor on March 21, 2017, 15:18:36 PM
Trev,
I admire your forgiving nature towards someone who caused you much suffering but I think you are in the minority.
I hope that I am not , but most direct victims I speak to have similar experiences where they find it is family and friends who cannot move on, or understand how people can forgive.
Quote from: Hogs on March 21, 2017, 10:05:22 AM
OK here we go then,
Martin McGuiness is dead, the Beeb paints a picture of his later years and best pals with Paisley, known to all in Stormont as the 'Chuckle Brothers' and his skills as a Political Light, etc etc etc Ahh how lovely that B'Liar's Spin Doctor goes on to praise him for his work as Ulsters PIRA 2IC in the 'Peace Process' ! He and all the other PIRA Terrorists were given a 'Pardon' by B.Liar yet a number of UK Troops and Police Officers got no closure like their opposing 'Terrorist Combatants' !
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/08/british-troops-investigated-killings-troubles-northern-ireland/
Many of the Terrorist 'Soldiers' were and probably are still good chums with that bastion of Politcal Correctness the Right Honourable Jeremy Corbin, You know the one known to his opponents as Jeremy 'Kipper' Corbyn, Two Faced and Spinless, (along with another stalwart of the Liberal Left Gang, Ken 'The Toady Newt' Livingston) thought the likes of this Terrorist Brotherhood was a good thing and otffered the Fraternal Support !
Again the Beeb offers no real mention of the murderous regime carried out by PIRA in terms of numbers, but did find editorial space to include Bloody Sunday to add weight to their 'What a fine Fellow McGuiness' was !
A friend of mine recently passed away with prostate cancer and he was a proud member of the Royal Regiment of Artillery during his time in the British Army. Let me tell you a bit about Gunner David Fairweather MC which he earned whilst giving first aid to a wounded Brother, carrying on the engagement with 4-6 PIRA Terrorists despite having been shot 3 times himself by 7.62 rounds. Only 2 (Him and his Patient) of his 4 man brick survived his point man died in the 1st exchange of the contact and the rear marker managed to get a call out for assistance and casevac before surcombing to his wounds, He received a Mentioned in Dispatches.
Will I give deference to this former PIRA Terrorist ? Not a Chance but I would add that Gunner David Fairweather got upstairs before McGuiness and I reckon Dave would have done a Recce on the entrance Pearly Gates fixed a 10 digit co-ordinate into a fixed piece of Artillery and blown him straight down the stairs to another place!
:bravo_2: :bravo_2: :bravo_2:
the murdering scumbag should have got the O.B.E years ago(Hogsy will know what I mean)as should his other muredering pal GA
Quote from: nic.spato on March 21, 2017, 11:43:46 AM
Yet another outpouring of bile and hatred from the usual suspects.
I ain't gonna get into a row with anyone, but just remember, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
ah so we have to sit down and shake hands with al qaeeda/daish et al,some chance! they would have slit our throats first.
He and his ilk were not FREEDOM FIGHTERS they were murdering cowards who killed ordinary men/women and children because they did not have the guts for a REAL war with the Brit army.
the real sadness about his death was that his family were at his bedside before he died,something the thousands of his victims never got the chance
Cut to the chase
he was a murdering terrorist bast*ard
good riddens, hope he died in excruciating pain
Mike
Quote from: Trev on March 21, 2017, 11:05:43 AM
Quote"First and foremost, Martin McGuinness was a much loved husband, father and grandfather. My thoughts and prayers are with his wife and the family circle at this very painful time of grief and loss."
The man was instrumental in the peace process, and will be missed.
The man was extremely instrumental In creating a situation which ultimately required a peace process. I doubt he will be missed by a lot of people.
Don't ever tell me terrorism doesn't pay, another example Yassa Arafat ended up leading a nation and there are many more I can never forgive them.
Most posters on here are just ignorant to what has occurred in Ireland, north and south, and reading the posts, that is totally understandable. :67:
Quote from: Trev on March 21, 2017, 11:05:43 AM
Quote"First and foremost, Martin McGuinness was a much loved husband, father and grandfather. My thoughts and prayers are with his wife and the family circle at this very painful time of grief and loss."
The man was instrumental in the peace process, and will be missed.
This is the only comment I will make on this subject....if "the man" hadn't been instrumental in creating the "war" in the first place, he wouldn't have needed to be "instrumental" in the peace process, because there would have been no need for a "peace process".
Norman Tebbit wasn't far wrong - McGuinness was a coward who knew very well that involving himself in the "peace process" meant he would never have to face up to or accept responsibility for his crimes. He wasn't sorry for what he did, and he did plenty. He was a bit of a magician alright - not only could he make people disappear...Jean McConville, for example, a woman who was taken away by a death squad, in front of her terrified little children, tortured and then killed and dumped in a hidden location, but he managed to get himself into government. One definition of forgiveness is to cancel the debt. Since he never admitted to anything, or apologised for anything, the debt stands.
Macc,
Please inform us where we have been " ignorant to what has occurred in Ireland, north and south " .
Do you know something that we don't ?
My sister-in-law was born and brought up in Ireland. She can tell you so much through personal experience about the intolerance and prejudice of both sides of the divide. But she always said that " McGuiness and Adams caused more harm and bitterness than almost any other political group" .
McGuinness was a terrorist who hid behind the political process to avoid prosecution for his vicious crimes.
Tebbit has said, quite rightly, there is no forgiveness without admitting and accepting that what you did was wrong.
That post just proves my point Zilnor, like most, you know nothing about the problems in Ireland. Ask your sister-in-law to place a post.
macc, so because there were or are "problems" in Ireland, do you think this justifies what he did ??
He was a terrorist and a murderer. Why do many people give him credit for his part in the peace process? Peace from what? From the terrorism he and his cowardly mates started and carried on for many years.
Let´s remember and honour those who died as a result of his actions, and let him rot in Hell (if there is an afterlife)
It is very sad (and somewhat strange) that people feel the need to post such vitriol now that he is dead , but not when he was alive?
Were his 'crimes' not the same last week/ last year?
People also state that some are unable to forgive, this simply isn't true.
As human beings we all have the ability to forgive, some simply choose not too, and that is fine, but the only person they need to justify this to is themselves.
Instead they post statements of hatred as if to reinforce (to themselves), or in perhaps to feel as if there is some collective justification for their decisions.
Now waiting for Macc to share his knowledge on the problems in Ireland, because according to him, most of us know nothing !
You're right Trev. It reminds me of the time wen Mrs Thatcher passed away.
Although I have my own personal views about Martin McGuinness, I at least have some respect for those he has left behind.
There are some unpleasant people about.
Byrney,
" There are some unpleasant people about."
You are right, and McGuinness was one of them.
Quote from: zilnor on March 22, 2017, 07:54:19 AM
Now waiting for Macc to share his knowledge on the problems in Ireland, because according to him, most of us know nothing !
There yer go Zills here is a starting point just to save Macc a bit of time,intresting read for the intrested,the Scots were all so Forced laboured and consentrated in Camps......
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromwellian_conquest_of_Ireland
Some people think there is some "good" in everyone, the fact is that there are some in this world that are just totally bad.
Wake up to the real world.
Off Topic,but just out of intrest,have any forum members done any research on the Spanish Cival War or read Paul Prestons insight ?
Quote from: Trev on March 22, 2017, 07:46:21 AM
It is very sad (and somewhat strange) that people feel the need to post such vitriol now that he is dead , but not when he was alive?
Were his 'crimes' not the same last week/ last year?
That is about one of the most stupid and naive things I think I have ever read on a forum. I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry. There's a very good article in the Daily Mail today by historian Ruth Dudley Edwards which I think you should read Trev. You are free to forgive the monsters of this world, those who infict pain, suffering and distress on others for their own gratification, but until the perpetrators like McGuinness, Adams and the likes of Rolf Harris actually admit they are aware of the devastation they created, and genuinely regret their actions, then there can be no way to forgive and thus move forward.
Karen, agreed.
Tetley,
I don't need to read Wikepedia on Cromwell's brutal treatment of the Irish people. IMO, what he did there was unforgiveable. But of course , God was on his side !
Yes, I have read stuff on the Spanish Civil War. Now off out to walk the dog. Will post more info later.
Quote from: zilnor on March 22, 2017, 09:11:05 AM
Karen, agreed.
Tetley,
I don't need to read Wikepedia on Cromwell's brutal treatment of the Irish people. IMO, what he did there was unforgiveable. But of course , God was on his side !
Yes, I have read stuff on the Spanish Civil War. Now off out to walk the dog. Will post more info later.
MMMMM.....
Quote from: Karen4 on March 22, 2017, 08:53:12 AM
Quote from: Trev on March 22, 2017, 07:46:21 AM
It is very sad (and somewhat strange) that people feel the need to post such vitriol now that he is dead , but not when he was alive?
Were his 'crimes' not the same last week/ last year?
That is about one of the most stupid and naive things I think I have ever read on a forum. I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry. There's a very good article in the Daily Mail today by historian Ruth Dudley Edwards which I think you should read Trev. You are free to forgive the monsters of this world, those who infict pain, suffering and distress on others for their own gratification, but until the perpetrators like McGuinness, Adams and the likes of Rolf Harris actually admit they are aware of the devastation they created, and genuinely regret their actions, then there can be no way to forgive and thus move forward.
I don't need to read the article thank you, and you are welcome to your opinion.
It's a shame you felt the need to deride mine.
Trev you are absolutely entitled to your opinion and I am absolutely entitled to mine. I stand by my view that your statement was stupid and naive, in my opinion, but of course you are welcome to keep posting whatever you want, as are all of us, within reason.
Quote from: Karen4 on March 22, 2017, 09:52:47 AM
Trev you are absolutely entitled to your opinion and I am absolutely entitled to mine. I stand by my view that your statement was stupid and naive, in my opinion, but of course you are welcome to keep posting whatever you want, as are all of us, within reason.
Just to clarify I have at no point suggested that anyone should forgive him.
It's the unnecessary outpouring of hatred that I find distasteful., and pointless.
There's a simple answer to that Trev, stop reading this thread. Sometimes we all tend to forget there's an "off" button.
Quote from: Karen4 on March 22, 2017, 10:12:42 AM
There's a simple answer to that Trev, stop reading this thread. Sometimes we all tend to forget there's an "off" button.
That is very true, but if we simply ignore things we believe are wrong then they never change.
This will be my last comment though.
Tets,
You may have read some of these, if not they are interesting.
A very short introduction to the Spanish Civil War. By Helen Graham. recommended by Paul Preston
Orwell in Spain. George Orwell
As I Walked out one Midsummer Morning. Laurie Lee
Ghosts of Spain. Giles Tremlett
The last gives good information about other aspects of life in Spain.
Quote from: macc on March 21, 2017, 20:42:54 PM
Most posters on here are just ignorant to what has occurred in Ireland, north and south, and reading the posts, that is totally understandable. :67:
and are we ignorant of what happened in Warrington/Birmingham/London etc etc
Still waiting for Macc to enlighten us, and share his superior knowledge on events in Ireland. :57: :57:
Quote from: zilnor on March 22, 2017, 16:26:51 PM
Still waiting for Macc to enlighten us, and share his superior knowledge on events in Ireland. :57: :57:
Indeed. Why are we waiting..why are we waiting.....?
:08: I wouldn't hold my breath if i was you, :93: or maybe on the other hand, you should try :13:
Come on Macc,
Don't keep us in suspense any longer. We are desperate to hear your views on the Irish problem, that most of us know nothing about . :85:
Perhaps the events of yesterday will remind people of what this man was doing when he was younger !!
I wonder how he will go down in history.
A Terrorist and murderer or A Peacemaker and politician.???
Nibbler.
Fing is, loadsa people have been "terrorists" but end up political heroes, and they come from all different places, Israel, South Africa, Palestine, Cuba, Russia, France, even England and the USA, the list goes on. It also depends on how far you want to go back if you need to prove a point, but then of course, it turns into a history lesson and becomes inconvenient for the argument.
I would imagine McGuiness will go down as a peacemaker and politician that used to be a terrorist, what we as plebs think doesn't matter an iota.
Quote from: webejamin on March 23, 2017, 10:15:23 AM
Fing is, loadsa people have been "terrorists" but end up political heroes, and they come from all different places, Israel, South Africa, Palestine, Cuba, Russia, France, even England and the USA, the list goes on. It also depends on how far you want to go back if you need to prove a point, but then of course, it turns into a history lesson and becomes inconvenient for the argument.
I would imagine McGuiness will go down as a peacemaker and politician that used to be a terrorist, what we as plebs think doesn't matter an iota.
Exactly people forget the past,
Blair was singing his praises in an interview, but we forget that you can't believe a word he says !!
The only thing with bringing up the past, is that some people like to leave out the inconvenient bits, depending of course on what point is being pursued.
Bit like if the Germans had won the first, or last war and had occupied the UK. By now we would probably all be Nazis and thinking in that way, so anyone that tries to take back the UK for the British would be a terrorist. All our heroes from that era would have been hanged as murdering terrorists and our history would be shown as such.
In Japan they've only recently included the 30s and 40s decades in school history lessons.
So yes, history can be inconvenient.
Ask most people "when was the last time England was invaded and ruled by that invader" and the answer will most likely be 1066 :72:
Quote from: hartcjhart on March 21, 2017, 15:50:52 PM
Quote from: nic.spato on March 21, 2017, 11:43:46 AM
Yet another outpouring of bile and hatred from the usual suspects.
I ain't gonna get into a row with anyone, but just remember, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
ah so we have to sit down and shake hands with al qaeeda/daish et al,some chance! they would have slit our throats first.
He and his ilk were not FREEDOM FIGHTERS they were murdering cowards who killed ordinary men/women and children because they did not have the guts for a REAL war with the Brit army.
the real sadness about his death was that his family were at his bedside before he died,something the thousands of his victims never got the chance
so the women and children that were murdered by British soldiers on Bloody Sunday .. were they all terrosits aswell.
Which bloody Sunday.
Quote from: macc on March 24, 2017, 07:18:23 AM
Which bloody Sunday.
January 1972 .....26 unarmed civilians murdered
What about Croke Park.
Quote from: macc on March 24, 2017, 07:45:10 AM
What about Croke Park.
exactly...sitting ducks ...
Funny that Hogs, the truth. There is absolutely nothing to back up what you say, nothing, all in your head. No footage of the day backs you up, no enquirys back you up, other than the original proven lies and cover ups, but maybe lies are your truth. Keep reading the comics, and I would have to say this post throws a huge shadow over your first post on this thread. Try learning more than the spelling of the word. TRUTH.
Quote from: macc on March 24, 2017, 07:45:10 AM
What about Croke Park.
Well that's one of the inconvenient bit's of history macc, it's not fair to go back so far, spoils the thread. :67:
Quote from: doreen1 on March 21, 2017, 09:03:30 AM
Martin and Ian will be remiscising now about the OLD days.
We could always finish on doreen,s veiw and hope that Northan Irealand and Southern Irealand continue to move forward and prosper.
Quote from: Tetley on March 24, 2017, 13:46:56 PM
Quote from: doreen1 on March 21, 2017, 09:03:30 AM
Martin and Ian will be remiscising now about the OLD days.
We could always finish on doreen,s veiw and hope that Northan Irealand and Southern Irealand continue to move forward and prosper.
Make yer right Tets, it's what some have been hinting all along :08:
Quote from: webejamin on March 24, 2017, 14:42:09 PM
Quote from: Tetley on March 24, 2017, 13:46:56 PM
Quote from: doreen1 on March 21, 2017, 09:03:30 AM
Martin and Ian will be remiscising now about the OLD days.
We could always finish on doreen,s veiw and hope that Northan Irealand and Southern Irealand continue to move forward and prosper.
Make yer right Tets, it's what some have been hinting all along :08:
apparently some of the top english law firms-staff are regestering in Southern Irealand so they can still work in the EU after 2019.
Quote from: Hogs on March 24, 2017, 08:02:52 AM
Quote from: bomagdrink on March 23, 2017, 20:34:58 PM
Quote from: hartcjhart on March 21, 2017, 15:50:52 PM
Quote from: nic.spato on March 21, 2017, 11:43:46 AM
Yet another outpouring of bile and hatred from the usual suspects.
I ain't gonna get into a row with anyone, but just remember, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
ah so we have to sit down and shake hands with al qaeeda/daish et al,some chance! they would have slit our throats first.
He and his ilk were not FREEDOM FIGHTERS they were murdering cowards who killed ordinary men/women and children because they did not have the guts for a REAL war with the Brit army....we are in a time of reconciliation....lots of inco
the real sadness about his death was that his family were at his bedside before he died,something the thousands of his victims never got the chance
so the women and children that were murdered by British soldiers on Bloody Sunday .. were they all terrosits aswell.
we are in a time of reconciliation..lots of people have died and suffered on all sides ..some innocent people, time for peace and please stop digging up the past ..we can't rewrite history ...when Martin mcguiness R.IP...allows the queen to shake hands with him ...that's enough 👏
With respect there were no women and even at 17 years, the 5 17 year olds that lost their lives are hardly children, especially when one was carrying 4 'nail' bombs !
I also note that you make no mention of the PIRA 'Snipers nest' at the location, nor Martin McGuiness, PIRA Derry 2IC who was thought to have been carrying a Thompson submachine gun, but not proved. But it was a peaceful demonstration march, wasn't it, not to mention that whilst typing this response the 13 Official victims of the event has grown to 26. Still can't let the truth get in the way of preferred truth can you !
Hogs
Quote from: webejamin on March 24, 2017, 12:51:32 PM
Quote from: macc on March 24, 2017, 07:45:10 AM
What about Croke Park.
Well that's one of the inconvenient bit's of history macc, it's not fair to go back so far, spoils the thread. :67:
Sorry Webe, what can i say. What starting date for the killing of Irish people in the past would you think was fair. :051bye:
Quote from: macc on March 24, 2017, 19:32:12 PM
Quote from: webejamin on March 24, 2017, 12:51:32 PM
Quote from: macc on March 24, 2017, 07:45:10 AM
What about Croke Park.
Well that's one of the inconvenient bit's of history macc, it's not fair to go back so far, spoils the thread. :67:
Sorry Webe, what can i say. What starting date for the killing of Irish people in the past would you think was fair. :051bye:
:clap:
Quote from: lmj52 on March 24, 2017, 20:46:08 PM
Quote from: macc on March 24, 2017, 19:32:12 PM
Quote from: webejamin on March 24, 2017, 12:51:32 PM
Quote from: macc on March 24, 2017, 07:45:10 AM
What about Croke Park.
Well that's one of the inconvenient bit's of history macc, it's not fair to go back so far, spoils the thread. :67:
Sorry Webe, what can i say. What starting date for the killing of Irish people in the past would you think was fair. :051bye:
:clap:
Well macc, just don't go back to the inconvenient parts, coz then it gets a bit embarrassing and like I said, spoils the thread, if you know what I mean, History's a bit like that. :72:
Hogs, that reply made me laugh. :king: Your new name shall be from this day forth, Sir Hogs of Widgery, the truth seeker. :sign0065: When you place the word truth in your posts from now on, i shall at least smile. :bravo_2: I understand exactly what you are saying Webe :13: But a serious question for everybody on here Webe, what year should be the the cut off, ie, dont go back more than 50 years, forget everything before that. :67: :67:
The Saville report was criticised.
Being selective in choosing evidence.
Under pressure by government to appease.
Length of time and the cost. It was let slip by Jowell it had cost £400 million.
There were no inquiries into the many other civilian deaths carried out by paramilitary groups at that time.
The terrible events of that day cannot be glossed over or whitewashed but it seems one sided and a case of double standards to me. IMO.
History is as far back as we can go.
It tells us how far we have progressed or not.
At the beginning, our aims were all the same, just to have a full belly to survive, then this all started, to be better than the "next man".
Have we progressed much ??
Quote from: macc on March 25, 2017, 08:00:47 AM
I understand exactly what you are saying Webe :13: But a serious question for everybody on here Webe, what year should be the the cut off, ie, dont go back more than 50 years, forget everything before that. :67: :67:
Not everyone wants to go back to the same spot in time macc, as can be seen when many emotional subjects are kicked over. But, we must all be prepared for someone else's contribution, that aint gonna be convenient to our argument or point.
Of course I was being facetious in my comment, but my own cut off point would have been when McGuinness turned peacemaker. The period of relative peace is much shorter than the period of hate and killing in Ireland, that went on for centuries as we all know from basic, but sometimes left out, history.
I'm an Englishman, but I aint fick, well, not very fick anyway, and can usually tell the difference between black and white. :72:
I have read the posts on this and one thing I noticed was that at the start, "posters" were commenting on how they felt about the death of this Irishman and his past deeds. Almost immediately people that disagreed with these comments turned the thread into a personal attack, accusing them of being full of hate, writing bile, being naïve, ignorant and much more. Surely, if they do not agree with what the original posters are saying about this mans past life, they should confine their comments to the original subject and not make it a personal points scoring game.
Quote from: macc on March 24, 2017, 07:45:10 AM
What about Croke Park.
& what brought about this act of retribution ?
:85: :85: nearly had me there Gus, i was tempted to answer, but then realised it would be a total waste of time answering a person whose only solution to every single problem on the planet is to kill everybody. Killing of civilians at a football match, i suppose that's just your kind of thing. Retribution, good word Gus. :bravo_2: