Arboleas Community Forum

The devolution thread started by johnjones at 3.00am this morning has been removed because it was inflammatory, used foul language, and racist against the Scots. We will NOT put up with anything like that on this forum. Leave your racist views in your own home not on the forum.

We are all for a good honest debate about the topic of devolution but we will not stand for what can only be described as hatred towards the Scots. Phil

 :clap: Well done Felipe!

I second the above "felipe".
                                    Terry.

Thank you, Felipe.

Well done Phil - none of us wants to hear that kind of stuff.

Having said that, and now that the vote is only a matter of weeks away, what do people think?  Particularly interested to hear the views of our Scottish brothers and sisters.

I have listened to (most of) the two live debates, and it seems to centre on two things - currency and oil - there are obviously many more, but those are the things that appear to get people most agitated.

It's a pretty close call, but on balance I reckon if I was Scottish I'd be voting "No".   The success, or otherwise, of the economy seems to rely too much on oil for my liking without any real understanding as to what is still available, and for how long that is likely to last.  And, when it eventually runs out / becomes unviable what happens then?

Its not just abought the uk exit its also EU  exit.......... and Spain saying it will veto any Scotish indi eu application ,very intresting if they do vote to exit and a bit of a heads up on EU  exit for the rest of us Sasanackers south of the border ,if  "UK you prat " gets there referudim vote.

spin the wheel comrades and turn yer gas down as krem lins got the hump !

:tiphat:

I sincerely hope the Scots vote No. I tried to get my brother to get me on the Voters roll so that I could go back and vote No.

Alex Salmond may talk a good game but his arguments don`t stand scrutiny.

There are only approx 5 million in the country, say a million pensioners and a million kids, it only leaves 3 million to finance the economy and a percentage of those will be timewasters that have never worked and don`t intend to work, probably the same percentage as they have in England that prefer life on the dole.

He wants to get rid of Faslane and the nuclear subs ? That is worth billions of pounds every year to the Scottish economy,where is he going to replace that revenue from ? What about the thousands of jobs that spin off from Faslane that may well be lost, so no income tax paid from those people and dole money being paid out instead. If the subs go South to say Falmouth, then the specialist jobs that go with the subs, will be exported from Scotland to Falmouth although that area would benefit from extra employment with the ancillary services that would need to be provided.

He wants to shut Hunterston Nuclear power station in Ayrshire that has been there for about 30 years providing jobs and power to the Scottish community. Where is the extra power going to come from ? Buy it from England ?

The UK is small enough without splitting it up any further, Scotland and England need each other as well as Wales and Northern Ireland.

He thinks he is going to walk into the Euro zone, what about the currency.

What about transport ? Since April this year all foreign trucks entering the UK have to pay approx £10 a day to drive on UK roads depending on size of vehicle. Will Scottish owned haulage businesses need to pay £10 a day even though they may be paying UK road tax ? Who knows, nobody is giving an answer to that.

Ohh time to get off my soap box,suffice to say if you are Scottish and eligable to vote get out there and use that vote to keep the United Kingdom as one unit. NO TO INDEPENDANCE.

Jim :tiphat:

PS I read the posting that Felipe removed and all I can say is that the other person hasn`t met many Scots in his 60 years, we are a very hospitable nation !

PS I read the posting that Felipe removed and all I can say is that the other person hasn`t met many Scots in his 60 years, we are a very hospitable nation !
[/quote]

Spot on Jimbo
Regards
Geordie John :tiphat: :tiphat:

Yes, lovely people the Scots. I go to Berwick upon Tweed a lot as my son lives there. Not in Scotland but just one mile from the border. Most of Berwick consider themselves Scots and the football team plays in the Scottish league. My daughter in law is a Scot and we visit Scotland every time I go there. Great people, very hospitable.

Jim
genuine question

has anybody asked Salmon that if Scotland bins the UK  and EU  how are they going to remove all the EU  cits in Scotland and how will it effect Scots living away from Scotland within the EU .


if we have any UKIP s on the pannel perhaps we can have there angle on this,i keep asking,i even dropped a line to chairman Glegg.........no bodys answering,although one chap did say it was simply a matter of applying for citizen ship in your present eu country................ :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  luv it  .

Given the time of the original posting I suspect a dram or two was involved :whistle:
nibbler :tiphat:

I think the YES vote is going to win, and it wont be too long now before we find out. Why would the Scots not want independence and control over their own future and ventures. Imagine an independent Scotland, no blood, just vote, a no brainer. Researching the propaganda on both sides, the no side has nothing but scare tactics as to what will happen if you vote yes, shouldn't they concentrate on the good of the union. It would appear from looking a little deeper that this separation will cause a lot more problems for the English than it will for the Scottish, and an independent Scotland will benefit the Scots enormously. It is not in England,s best interest to make it difficult to separate the union. Scotland has huge potential even without the oil sterling whiskey and haggis to be a wealthy strong nation.

Thanks for that Jimbo.  It's refreshing to hear the views of a "man in the street" rather than the biased views of politicians.

Clearly Jimbo you are a passionate Scot, in the same way that the good majority of us are about our Country of birth, but you recognise the value of maintining the link with the UK, and the inherent dangers of an economic split.  For what it's worth, I agree that such a split would not be a good idea for any of us - in much the same way that our "partnership" with Europe should continue.

Far better, in both instances, to use energy on making the relationships work better, for the benefit of all constituent parts, rather than destroying the good things.

Quote from: nibbler on August 30, 2014, 13:17:52 PM
Given the time of the original posting I suspect a dram or two was involved :whistle:
nibbler :tiphat:

My thoughts exactly but probably a bottle or three :rofl:

Have many Scottish friends. Here, in England and Scotland and none of them want a "yes" vote.
It is obvious that Spain would veto Scotland coming into the EU because of the Catalonians who are eagerly awaiting the result before they too push for independence.
The division of an enormous country can work but to be viable the workforce needs to be more than 5 mil or, like Qatar, with everlasting resources that the world needs. Scotland, unfortunately, has neither.

I was talking to a Scottish bloke I used to work with. He says he can't vote coz he lives in London, he thinks it's not right. He also thinks there are more Scott's out of Scotland than in it ??? and none of them will get a vote  :o is that true?

You need to be resident in Scotland to vote, because of the Hollyrood franchise.

So, what will happen to any Scott's that decide to go back to Scotland to live after independence? will they be entitled to just turn up and assume their Scottish nationality? or will they just be mere UK nationals, as they are now? :tiphat:   

M i step Mars Scotish,she has already been told by here local snp bod that if they get the vote through ,they will be re doing the passports & driving licences ,aint progress great.... :lol:


she is a bit un chuffed by it all   808

If I was a Scot ex-pat living in Spain I would want to know
1. how are they going to afford to pay my pension after independence
2. how are they going to afford to pay my healthcare
3. if they fail to get in to the EU does that mean I am an illegal immigrant within the EU on an illegal passport?
4.
5.
the list goes on

Certainly seems a bit iffy don't it ???

Quote from: Babyboomer on August 30, 2014, 16:51:52 PM
If I was a Scot ex-pat living in Spain I would want to know
1. how are they going to afford to pay my pension after independence
2. how are they going to afford to pay my healthcare
3. if they fail to get in to the EU does that mean I am an illegal immigrant within the EU on an illegal passport?
4.
5.
the list goes on

Booms
i asked along the same lines what if the UK  bins the EU,the person i asked was an SP  lawyer whom is intrested in this stuff.

the overveiw was that any EU  citizen had the same rights here as an SP  citizen........ however this situation would be diffrerent if the UK  leaves the EU ,he didnt invisage the brits been bus,d out because of lack of the correct paperwok  but there could be many added complications depending on the government of the day for people wishing to reside in Spain not in the EU.

O n a slightly diffrent tack ,i asked a local estate agent from the coast..... if any potentiel client saw a UK  withdrawl from the EU  as a problem..........reply... NO he has never realy been asked    :crazy:

I  find it incredable that folks are selling uk homes at pensionable age to come here at the moment with this UK  & EU  subject still un decided.

hey ho spin the wheel  :tiphat:

I haven't read the offending post so am unable to comment on it. However I thought Jimbo's post reflected what hopefully the majority of sensible Scots will be thinking and that we can keep the union.  However, if the Scottish Nationilsts get their way could anybody tell me whether all the Scots working and living in England will become illegal immigrants and will they require work permits, assuming they are allowed to remain in the England. Also will all MPs representing seats in Scotland be banished from Parliament? Trivial little points I know but indicative of many things that have never been discussed.  I sincerely hope it is a "NO" vote, but am fearful that the young people of Scotland can't see the big picture. Another thing which seems to be overlooked is the impact this would have on the people of Wales and Northern Ireland.

Jumbo theScot's post says it all as to why Scotland should remain in the UK.  :tiphat: :clap:
Salmond is on an ego trip and will not be around to see the disastrous results if the Yes voters win. Five million people in Scotland !   How on earth does he think that the taxes generated by the percentage of those 5 mill who will be actually working, will cover all costs ? As to the oil revenue, the oil companies will still want their share. Etc etc.
My maternal grandmother was born and brought up near Glasgow. She would have definitely voted No to any split !

Let the games begin.

The question I have is (as with all public votes), how many people voting 'Yes' truly, really understand what that will mean?

Do they know, for example, that at every airport they will no longer be able use the EU Citizen 'fast track' line, but will have to join the line of non-EU passengers?

Do they know that they will no longer be able to order things from the EU without customs clearance formalities?

Do they realise they will only be able to enter the EU on a strictly regulated visa? No more easy come, easy go? That their 'right' to live and work in the EU (including England, Wales and NI) will be.. gone?

It seems to me that this has never been put over properly, so you have people (again) voting for things where they simply don't understand the full consequences of their decision.

Salmond has said they will remain in the EU. They won't. They will be out and will have to re-apply. Spain is highly likely to veto any re-joining. In any event, re-joining could take 5-10 years.

Two other effects.... if they do leave, this tips the Lab-Con balance in the UK parliament towards the anti-EU camp making a full UK exit more likely. On the other hand, when they see the mess the Scots will be in when they leave, it might have the opposite effect. Who knows..

Another intresting over veiw Rambler, 2 things i rember abought the 70,s was the power cuts and the common market,it seems completly barking to me for the scots to leave the EU  if the indi vote goes through,and even more barking that the scotts dont get to vote as an x pat.

i can understand the frustration of been run by an un elected tory government ,but there are plenty of scots mp,s voting in the house of parls so to me it seems a sledge hammer to bust a political  nut.

anybody that goes to the Isle of Man can see it works as an independent ,if you talk to the Manx folks there proud to be indi ,however the Scotland lark will be a diffrent ball game ie because of the close ness of the vote ,and the divisions it will cause.(either way )

very very intresting  :tiphat:

The Isle of Man has special status - this was negotiated and agreed, and anything similar for Scotland would require the agreement of all EU countries, including Spain... which would not be forthcoming.... indeed, their proposed membership would even require referendums to take place in some other member countries before membership could be permitted. That could be messy process... and would not be quick, with a very unpredictable outcome.

The IOM is a member of the EEA, a status Scotland would lose if they gained full independence.  The practical implications of that are mind-boggling. I suspect the reality of it would not really hit home until people and businesses in Scotland wanted to travel to, or buy or sell from the rest of the EU - including England.

Spot on Hogsy me boy, particularly regarding the 16 year old vote.
It's already costing me money >:( with the £ dropping against the $  >:( must be affecting the € for you people :o
Last week Mrs webe said "lets change some money up" I said "nah, we'll wait till next week" :-[

Quote from: ramblarider on September 08, 2014, 09:24:45 AM
The Isle of Man has special status - this was negotiated and agreed, and anything similar for Scotland would require the agreement of all EU countries, including Spain... which would not be forthcoming.... indeed, their proposed membership would even require referendums to take place in some other member countries before membership could be permitted. That could be messy process... and would not be quick, with a very unpredictable outcome.

The IOM is a member of the EEA, a status Scotland would lose if they gained full independence.  The practical implications of that are mind-boggling. I suspect the reality of it would not really hit home until people and businesses in Scotland wanted to travel to, or buy or sell from the rest of the EU - including England.

I understand thar RR  im talking more street level , the people are very proud to be Indi where as with a close Scots vote  people may not share the same pride ,unless of coarse Brother Salmond has that mutch talked abought political majic wand and the county booms under indi nesss.....but dosent bust as the Irish Tiger did.

spin the wheel  not long now....   :)

The fact that Scots who live abroad were disenfranchised is an absolute disgrace.

These are the very people who are most likely to really grasp the issues and at the same time, would be most affected. Excluding them from the vote is so extreme, I am surprised there has not been an outcry on this issue. Apathy? Who knows... they are facing life-changing decisions in which they have been given no say.

If Salmond wins, how long before he announces that he is the new King Of Scotland. :)

London,Manchester,Birmingham and many more places will be a lot cleaner,quieter when all the jocks go back up north if the vote is yes,and there won't be so many empty cider bottles in the streets :drinks:and they won't need so many cops :lol:

Quote from: felipe on September 08, 2014, 12:31:31 PM
If Salmond wins, how long before he announces that he is the new King Of Scotland. :)

judging by his ego - probably the same day :lol:

Just as a matter of interest, I wonder how a yes vote will affect us normal, UK people? Other than an easier way in for all and sundry, coz we never had a land border before.
My mate Jock, he's Scottish ;D reckons most of his friends in Scotland claim to be yes men and women, but will in fact, vote no ???

Quote from: webejamin on September 08, 2014, 18:36:00 PM
Just as a matter of interest, I wonder how a yes vote will affect us normal, UK people? Other than an easier way in for all and sundry, coz we never had a land border before.

Value of £ will slide dramatically.

The UK is legally obliged to enforce border controls. They will have to put effective measures in place - just as between the US and Canada.

They cannot have a completely open border with a non-EU state.

Its getting realy scarry now......... :o the pressi of the Ukrain is press confrensing in Army green  :police: AND  Gorden Browns floggin the no vote in          " X em lets do it land"

looks like its time ti get the Jimmi Hendrix LP,s on  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xwnmmz1S37o

the worst bit tho,is the SNP  no2 looks like Jannet Krankie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7I313EuvBk     ;D

the worst bit tho,is the SNP  no2 looks like Jannet Krankie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Fink we're all a bit krankie :crazy:

It's the heat Webe, people not sleeping at night getting up " krankie ".  :D

I just hope once Ali Salmond tec,s over, the new rate,s man dont Jack Queen Lizzys castle tax up...... :o  ti pay for all the new  Himprovments . 8)

new coloured seats should look nice tho on Prince less street .......    :drinks:

O0

I think that Gordon Brown (remember him?), and his Labour mates have suddenly wised up to the fact that, come a "Yes" vote, they will have total power in Scotland, (with no-one else to blame for future problems), whilst leaving them with forty-odd less seats in Westminster and an inevitable Tory Government.

Interesting times indeed.

This was published on the 10 June in The Scotsman.  It's well worth reading.

"Hardship alert

I am a Norwegian who has been living in the UK for ten years and I understand the SNP looks at Norway as an example of how Scotland will be after independence. I have a number of friends in Scotland, love a good whisky and think the Scottish Highlands rival the beauty of my native country.

However, when pro-independence Scots look to Norway as a role model it's obvious that they only see what they want to see and largely ignore the facts. It took us a long time to accumulate the wealth we now enjoy, and it wasn't just a result of oil. Remember also that Norway voted on its independence in 1814, and the financial depression in the years that followed was the worst on record.

Our GDP per capita was consistently lower than Sweden, Denmark and indeed the United Kingdom every year since records began in the early 1800s until 1974. The few things that kept us going were unity, national pride and stupidity.

If Scots are willing to go through decades of hardship in order to build their own country, then fine, but no-one should assume that independence is a silver bullet that will automatically transform Scotland into Norway.

It is also worth considering the downsides of living in such a wealthy country as consumer prices in Norway are astronomical. VAT stands at 25 per cent, you pay £9 for a pint in the pub, and the price for a new, five-door Vauxhall Corsa is £20,490 (in the UK the same car is £9,600).

This is fine if you are a top earner, but I am sure no-one in Scotland believes that becoming independent will automatically lead to an accumulation of enormous personal wealth for the entire population.

Finally, if an independent Scotland succeeds it will be because it is totally united. When Norway wanted independence 99.5 per cent of the population voted Yes.

I don't see that sort of unity in Scotland today, and for that reason alone there should not be a referendum at all.

Haakon Blakstad

Moore Street

London"

Coulda worded that different byrney, it's "us", that will be lumbered with an inevitable Tory gov.uk. "Them" never "suffer" from nuffink, only "us"  :tiphat:

That's anuva fing Tetley, who's queen will she be? queen of England, or queen of Scotland? Will she get her heatin allowance Up in Scotland? coz it won't be in the EU will it, and the old pension, no increases  :o Or maybe they'll make a special hardship case out of it? ???
Anuva fing :o wot about the union flag? well ave ta dump em all an get new ones wivowt blue on it, innit :o more bleedin money fer some bleedin fat cat flag maker :o I knew there wos a reason fer all dis appenin >:( innit ???

Jamms i fink Queen   LIZZY should be ok   :handshake  ,plus she might get the wheeli Bin empted once a week up there as well   ;D

morning citizens,turned out nice again  8)

(http://tessaheywood.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/cartoon.jpg?w=268&h=225)
:lol:

 ;D ;D ;D

Quote from: musicdonna on September 09, 2014, 08:35:38 AM
This was published on the 10 June in The Scotsman.  It's well worth reading.

"Hardship alert

I am a Norwegian who has been living in the UK for ten years and I understand the SNP looks at Norway as an example of how Scotland will be after independence. I have a number of friends in Scotland, love a good whisky and think the Scottish Highlands rival the beauty of my native country.

However, when pro-independence Scots look to Norway as a role model it's obvious that they only see what they want to see and largely ignore the facts. It took us a long time to accumulate the wealth we now enjoy, and it wasn't just a result of oil. Remember also that Norway voted on its independence in 1814, and the financial depression in the years that followed was the worst on record.

Our GDP per capita was consistently lower than Sweden, Denmark and indeed the United Kingdom every year since records began in the early 1800s until 1974. The few things that kept us going were unity, national pride and stupidity.

If Scots are willing to go through decades of hardship in order to build their own country, then fine, but no-one should assume that independence is a silver bullet that will automatically transform Scotland into Norway.

It is also worth considering the downsides of living in such a wealthy country as consumer prices in Norway are astronomical. VAT stands at 25 per cent, you pay £9 for a pint in the pub, and the price for a new, five-door Vauxhall Corsa is £20,490 (in the UK the same car is £9,600).

This is fine if you are a top earner, but I am sure no-one in Scotland believes that becoming independent will automatically lead to an accumulation of enormous personal wealth for the entire population.

Finally, if an independent Scotland succeeds it will be because it is totally united. When Norway wanted independence 99.5 per cent of the population voted Yes.

I don't see that sort of unity in Scotland today, and for that reason alone there should not be a referendum at all.

Haakon Blakstad

Moore Street

London"

Absolutely spot on. There are a few people who have sussed out what Independence would really mean and that is decades of austerity far worse than the UK is going through at the moment. Most think it will be instant Utopia and have been sucked in to hype.
The numbers just don't stack up. A population on 5 million of which approx 2 million will be pensioners or youngsters. Take off the ones on benefits and how can those left support the welfare system and NHS that Salmond is proposing.
Added to that the already mentioned issues of EU membership, Currency etc. and it doesn'appear that rosy. If it's a Yes, does the money we pumped into Scottish Banks then aso become their responsibility? The UK Bank Guarentee scheme won't apply to any Scottish banks if there is a Yes vote, so who would want any money banked with them.
Also there are 120000+ non-uk europeans, ie Spanish, German etc. that are resdident in Scotland and have a vote, but Scots not living there are excluded. Doesn't make a lot of sense.
Finally, has anyone asked the Queen if she wants to be kept as Head of State for an Independant Scotland?

Scottish navy attacks Woolwich ferry in broad daylight

Quote from: webejamin on September 09, 2014, 17:21:51 PM
Scottish navy attacks Woolwich ferry in broad daylight

:rofl:

But we woz avin nun of it :redcard:

 :rofl:

And just to add a little humour ;D
The entrance to a Scottish polling station

 :lol:

The more I see about the political battle on the telly the more I wanna laugh ;D Those three politicians climbing the steps today to give a speech ;D and the woman was nearly fainting trying to speak after the climb ;D  ;D ;D
And that Salmond bloke I fink he's turnin into a frog :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Come on Webe, don't bring the French into this.  There's enough problems North of the border....

 :lol:
Now boys stop making me laugh I'm trying to be in a bad mood.... pmt

Oh no Doreen, we don't want any trouble from you lot across the Irish Sea as well.  We're doomed.  ;)

Getting back to reality, after hearing all the politicians and experts arguing their points, there's one thing I am assured of, that's the fact that nobody knows what will happen to Scotland, it's all aspirations and guesswork. The Scott's seem to have been whipped up into a frenzy of nationalism, but don't really have a nation. It's all "a chance" they're taking, there's not enough certainty about any of it, wait till winter, see how they feel then. :tiphat:

I think UK PLC  head office has a major problem at the mo ,as a media type said,if it goes through and it separates no body on the world stage is going to take mutch notice of the all new English & welsh & NI   fishing villages.......... :whistle:


intresting times  ,morning citizens   :tiphat:

My husbands cousin lives in Scotland, he isn't too worried about there being a YES vote. He says in their family and friends circles there is a rational logic that it would be madness to leave the Union. He likes to think that yes, people like the notion of independence but it just doesn't make sense.
He says his problem with the NO campaign is there isn't enough info out there for the common man/woman to comprehend.

There also seems to be provision for another vote, even if the no's win. It's "if" the UK vote out  ??? "if" there's a vote on the EU  ??? So it aint going away soon, whatever happens ::) I wonder who's budget, all the costs of all these referenda comes out of? our money, whoevers budget >:(
   

 ;)

http://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/news/scotland/video-england-fans-give-their-view-on-independence-referendum-with-chant-1.566558

I have watched all this drama unfold on the tv etc, and all I can see is a man whose ego is so big, he wants to win the vote no matter what the cost, and he says he loves scotland, I hope the scotish people see through his ego trip and stay part of the union,,

I suspect it's got nothing to do with a real desire for the people to "go it alone". There's probably a few billionaire fat cats, pulling Salmonds strings, that see a way of making a few more billion in an independent Scotland. I don't believe the ordinary working Scott has a better or worse life than us English, Welsh, or N.Irish, but they've been duped into thinking that Scotland will be the promised land if they vote yes. :tiphat:   

Looks like pretty much the entire financial sector with head offices in Scotland is getting ready to pack up shop and move South in the event of a 'Yes' vote LLoyds, RBS, Standard Life...

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/sep/11/rbs-will-leave-scotland-yes-vote

The Yes campaign looks to be on a high accusing Downing Street (Treasury) of a deliberate leak to papers and BBC of market sensitive information. Releasing the RBS contingency to move there registered office to London. Not sure he is right about it been market sensitive information and hence shoud not be released.
He also made hay of the BBC reporting gaff saying Lloyds also might move its registered office to London when it has been registered in Gresham Street for years. Just had a no voter staying with me and they are very apprehensive if the Yes campaign wins.

I agree with a previous poster that it puts paid to the UK on the world stage - it will definately in terms of influence become 2nd or 3rd class. Stormy days ahead  *&"

The thing is westminster has been asleep on the job ,the PM,s of the day should have been up in Scotland once every 3 months,in local shops,factorys,pubs,winning hearts and minds and giving the scots more day to day powers.

i bet the queen is having sleepless nights along with Camron whom will go down on a yes vote as the bloke that lost /cost the British union because he" wouldent get in among it and just sat back "

Thatcher would have been stood in the street corners debating as did Prescott yesterday.  :clap:

its going to be very close,but the worst part is it will split the Scotts on the streets for a genaration either way.

:tiphat:

Quote from: Tetley on September 11, 2014, 14:58:08 PM
........ i bet the queen is having sleepless nights along with Camron whom will go down on a yes vote as the bloke that lost /cost the British union because he" wouldn't get in among it and just sat back ".........

Cameron said it all yesterday when he said "this is not a General Election where you can ditch the F...ing Tories''  Too little too late Tetley.

I agree about the banks and others "saying" they will move out, but I don't believe they will, they already said they will keep all their offices and staff. It's all aimed at the staff to vote no if they think they might lose their jobs. In fact I don't believe anything that's being spouted so far, only the fact that yes will be a dumb move :tiphat:

Politicians have not been trusted for quite sometime and this trust continues to dimish, for all parties. There are many reasons for this, one of which is that the electorate are more aware of what they are "about" nowadays with the enforced increased transparency etc.
Salmond, not unlike Farage, has climbed on the back of this and done it very well. He is somehow convincing the electorate that he and the SNP, once they have full control of Scotland , will not be like other politicians. I am afraid if it's a yes vote and he begins to have to take real responsibilities, he will find he has to behave like all the others, in short, pander to big business and sod the plebs. He is a very clever politician, continually pointing the finger at the inadequacies of "Westminster", not difficult, and lowering the voting age was also a master stroke, but that doesn't mean he is making the right decisions for Scotland.
However, I do believe that either way Scotland will be OK, they are a resourceful nation.

Quote from: webejamin on September 11, 2014, 17:04:28 PM
I agree about the banks and others "saying" they will move out, but I don't believe they will, they already said they will keep all their offices and staff. It's all aimed at the staff to vote no if they think they might lose their jobs. In fact I don't believe anything that's being spouted so far, only the fact that yes will be a dumb move :tiphat:

This sums it up quite nicely and EVERYONE who has a vote should be aware of it.
http://blogs.channel4.com/paul-mason-blog/measure-big-indyref-risks/2311
The thing is if the banks DO relocate their HQ's, and go bust, rUK will be expected to pick up the pieces.
It appears to be a very shrewd move to allow 16 yr old's to vote, as having just watched some yougsters being interviewed on the news, their attitude is that it is all scaremongering and they will be fine.
The older generation are realists and know what would be in store if there was a Yes vote.

Just been watching gorgeous George on telly at the yes/no thing with all the school kids. first of all, I can't stand the man, but, of all the politicians, experts, wigs and wags, he is the only one to tell it how it is. All the trash talked to those youngsters, and he knocked em all into a cocked hat.
The only politician to have anything sensible and truthful to say about the yes/no referendum  :clap:  :tiphat:

My tuppence worth.

Scotland has only 8.3% of the UK's population. 8.3%! Remember this important figure... 8.3%

But we DO have...

32% of the land area.
61% of the sea area.
90% of the fresh water.
65% of the natural gas production.
96.5% of the crude oil production.
47% of the open cast coal production
81% of the untapped coal reserves
62% of the timber production
46% of the total forest area
92% of the hydro electric production
40% of the wind wave and solar energy production
60% of the fish landings
30% of the beef herd
20% of the sheep herd
9% of the dairy herd
10% of the pig herd
15% if the cereal holdings
20% of the potato holdings
...obviously 100% of the Scotch Whiskey industry.

We have a...
17 billion pound construction industry
13 billion food and drink industry
10 billion business services industry
9.3 billion chemical services industry
A 9.3 billion tourism industry
7 billion financial services industry
5 billion aeroservice industry
4.5 billion pound whiskey exports industry
3.1 billion pound life sciences industry
Scotland still has 350 million pounds worth of textile exports

We have 25% of Europes wave and wind energy potential.

And finally we are blessed to have 1.5 trillion pound worth of oil and gas reserves.

All of this, yet only 8.3% of The UK's population... Whaow Scotland should be rich!

IGNORANCE...
If you hear anyone saying "I DONT LIKE ALEX SALMOND" or "I DONT LIKE SNP"...
THIS VOTE IS ABOUT SCOTLAND'S RIGHT TO ELECT ITS OWN GOVERNMENT... IT HAS NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH ALEX SALMOND OR THE SNP.
DONT LET POLITICAL IGNORANCE RUIN THIS OPPORTUNITY.

Do you know... This is the UK's legacy of success in our history of being better-together is as follows...

The UK has the 3rd lowest pensions in the 34 OECD countries of the world

The UK has the single most expensive childcare in the European Union

The UK has the second lowest-paid economy in the entire developed world

The UK has the 3rd longest working hours in the EU

The UK has the lowest number of holidays in the EU

The UK has the 8th highest gender inequality pay gap out of the EU's 28 countries

The UK has the highest likelihood of poverty in disablement in the EU

The UK has the highest rail prices in Europe

The UK has the second highest housing cost in Europe

The UK has the highest fuel poverty rates in Europe.

The UK is the 4th highest country of wealth inequality in the entire planet!

But surely these awful figures cannot be possible when you read the following Scottish statistics...

Now, finally, did you also know that in all of the UK's elections for Westminster ever!... Not one vote cast in SCOTLAND has ever mattered! Because of the Westminster numbers, whatever government England votes for, the UK gets. So we have no democracy here!!! 4 decades of tory rule that we voted against is proof enough, and our defiance was punished by the closure of all the mines; closure of all the steelworks; closure of all the shipyards losing hundreds if thousands of jobs. The term used by Westminster's Thatcher when these industries needed some assistance was "let the markets decide". Funny how when the greedy bankers collapsed everywhere they were bailed out to the tune of over a trillion pounds of our money... Not a mention of "let the markets decide".

FACTS:
Fact: Scotland has an oil boom waiting to happen on the West Coast, but Michael Hesaltine signed a cessation of any form of oil exploration in the entire area in the 80′s to make way for nuclear submarines which Scotland doesn't want!

Fact: Scotland has shown its revulsion time and time again to nuclear weapons but they place them here against our countries wishes. A recent contingency report was carried out a out the feasibility of relocating them in Portsmouth. The report stated that it was unfeasible because the detrimental risk to the area of an incident was too high. (Ok for the Clyde though)

Fact: Scotland, with only 1 Tory MP, was forced to take the shocking attack on the poor & disabled called The Bedroom Tax, even though as our nations government, Holyrood voted to utterly reject this awful tax on the poor. Westminster gave us it anyway!

Fact: We are led to believe that the oil in our waters is finished and its a dying industry. Yet 13.5 billion has been invested by oil companies in the last 2 years alone!

Fact: The Clair Oil Field is about to open, and on its own has over 650 million barrels which will be extracted over 20+ years with production reaching a hundred thousand barrels a day!

Fact: Scotland gives more to Westminster than it gets back. Do you really think they'd be so keen to keep us if we were being subsidised like they'd have us believe?

Fact: Westminster has amassed over £1.3 trillion debt and still growing at nearly £6000 a second. Thats another £516 million today alone which YOU will have to pay for.

Fact: Of the 178 countries that have gained their own independence across this planet, not one single one of them has ever asked to reverse this independence, and very few of them have the assets we have.

SCOTLAND, WHAT ARE WE SCARED OF? WE HAVE A CHANCE... WITHOUT A SINGLE BULLET BEING FIRED, WITHOUT A SINGLE DEATH... TO GET OUR FREEDOM AND INDEPENDENCE, ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS PUT A CROSS IN THE YES BOX.

SCOTLAND, ITS TIME TO STAND UP AS A NATION AND VOTE YES ON THE 18TH OF SEPTEMBER... AND BECOME A FREE AND CARING NATION AGAIN!!!

webejamin

Unfortunatly I never saw the thing with GG, will catch it later.

But reading a few other blogs, virtually to a man and woman, they thought GG made a total tw*t of himself, and these are people who hold him in high regard.

Just sayin like  :tiphat:

Yes TBM, a compelling argument for you Scots to vote "Yes".

However, you seem to be ignoring one of your greatest imports to the Houses of Parliament - Gordon Brown.

He was Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer for many years before becoming Chancellor of the Exchequer for about ten years, and then three years as Prime Minister and Leader of the Labour Party - almost twenty years at the heart of Government, and, as such, one would hope, has a reasonable grasp of the economics of the UK.

Having been a political recluse since his departure from Downing Street, he has come centre stage again to put his weight fully behind a "No" vote.

As a passionate Scot, why on earth would he do this if he hadn't some idea as to what is the best way forward?

bryney

All politicians are liars, they care only about themselfs, power goes to their heads.

I well remember back in 1979, when there was a devolution vote, not an indy vote like next week, and they lied to us then.

We were told that the oil would run out by the early 90s, rents would rise by 40% and mortgages by 25%, insurance by 25% and the weekly shopping bill by 50% if scotland voted for devolution.

They lied back then, they are lying today, they have so, so much more to lose now.

Simple question, why does Westminster want to hold on to the jocks?

As for your question about GB, simple sums in reality, the labour party would never ever get a sniff of government without the scottish votes to help them get elected.

He also gives not a jot for the scot in the street, like all politicos, they are in it for themselfs.

"The labour party would never ever get a sniff of government without the scottish votes to help them get elected" - thanks TBM - my thoughts precisely.

And the Tories won't want to have to pay the "bedroom tax" on all those empty rooms in the Houses of Parliament - although there'll be plenty of space for all the asylum seekers which Labour so kindly allowed in to England.

Here are a few more facts ..how they will equate with that of three blind mice is up to the reader.
Fact
27.7 BILLION £ ..money from tax payers of England goes in subsidies to Scotland.

Of the 5.7 million people living in Scotland there is a higher percentage of woman than men.
Roughly 20% are 16 or younger, 20% are 64 or older which leaves just 57% ( 6.3% being unemployed) which is just over half of the population to pay via taxes towards all services, benefits and pensions of everyone in Scotland.

However what I fail to understand is just why the Scots dislike the English so much when you consider that many millions of people living in England have close Scottish ancestry.
UK is only 600 odd miles long and London and Houses of Parliament are reachable in an hour by air.
Many Scots have been Prime Ministers.
Elizabeth 1 gave the throne to James 6th of Scotland and the Stuarts reigned for 4 generations.

So can someone please explain why it is always a YOU and US scenario.

"why the Scots dislike the English" - I actually don't think that the majority of Scots do dislike the English Jessica.

There will always be a hard core of people who are prejudiced against others whether it be race, religion, football team, posters of the Forum, or whatever.

I have worked alongside many Scots and they were the salt of the earth, so please don't think it's all of them.

Jessica

Scotland gives much more to westminster than is takes out, that is a FACT.

You can make stats say anything you want, but the fact is, if we were a drain on the westminster government they would be siding with the Yes camp.

And I have no idea where you get the notion that scots hate or dislike the english, I certainly don't, my best friends are english.

I probably dislike many of my own countrymen more that the english or any other nation for that matter.

Scotland is full of bigots, they are possibly the ones who you refer to, tho they know not who they are, on one hand they wave their union jack's around while defrauding the government, they do hate the english, but not as much as they hate the Irish, if the truth be know, they just hate.

Certainly dont think that for, like you,  I have many Scottish friends....here, in England and in Scotland..and none of whom want the " yes" vote to win.
Was mearly replying to the posting by Three Blind Mice who was extolling the wonderful "WE " the People of Scotland.

I just hope however the vote goes the matter is settled, without recriminations, once and for all.

If Scotland give more to England then I don't understand why is the tax payer of England giving £27.7 billion to Scotland in subsides.
Just doesn't make sense.

Personally, I don't give a hootsmon about Scotland and it's inhabitants, but I do care about all the trouble they have caused by having a fall out with us and themselves. It's going to cost us all loadsamoney, and while the jocks are still in the UK we will be paying for their silliness.
If they make a go of it OK, if they don't OK, but what I don't want to see is, when they get into bother, we aint got to bail em out.
I hope they vote "NO" but If they don't, that's their problem.

TBM, of course many people won't like what Georgie boy said, especially if they are yes voters, I'm neither, just an observer, plus he was addressing a bunch of kids that were echoing their parents opinions, not their own, coz they were too young to have an opinion, but they do have a vote on the subject. :tiphat:  

Jessica

They give with one hand and take with the other, but the other is taking much more 

The info is out there, google is your friend  :tiphat:

weebejamin

If you go on to GG's facebook page, have a squint at the comments made by his own supporters, they are slaughtering him for his performance tonight.

Most of the people who I have been reading tonight are no voters, he made a fool of himself according to them.

And Fat Eck has pulled a master stroke by allowing the kids to vote, they will decide the outcome of the vote, that audience of kids that were on the tele tonight, they were told by the BBC producers to say they were either voting no or were undecided as the yes had far too much of a majority, it's all over the web, the bias BC, well I never.

Those kids may well know little about politics, they also prob care less about them, but they can see what is happening all around them, they see the lack of jobs, the drugs, the hooker who sells herself for her daily fix, or to feed her kids, they see the depravation, they see the lack of hope, but they know who is responsible, that is why they are voting Yes.

Anyways, facebook will tell you what the kids are thinking, and the torys may well get a shock when the vote comes in, thankfully the vote is on paper.

It won't bother me one way or te other, I live here now, would never dream of going back.

Quote from: Three Blind Mice on September 11, 2014, 23:58:36 PM

It won't bother me one way or te other, I live here now, would never dream of going back.

Hopefully you will be able to get dual nationality, then, as if there is a "Yes" vote Scotland will be out of the EU (until, or if,  they are are allowed to re-join) and your right to settle here will be gone. You only have that right as an EU Citizen. A 'Yes' vote means you lose that.

Your statistics only show part of the picture. They do not show the financial 'time bomb' Scotland has with an aging population...and a massive lack of currency reserves. Yes, I am aware the SNP have been saying they can continue to use the Pound just as before, and that there is no problem with EU membership, but anyone with half a brain can look at the facts of both situations and can see major problems. Just because Salmond says it will all be OK does not mean it will be.

You might be heading back to live in Scotland, like it or not.

Can someone explain why when the voting age in Britain is 18, but all of a sudden someone can change that to 16 for their benefit even though when the vote takes place they are still part of Britain, so confused ???
Also how will all this work, if its a yes will they be totally separate with a border crossing, and managing everything the way they want it ??

Even the Loch Ness monster has relocated to the Lake District...   Worried about a "YES " vote no doubt..

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/loch-ness-monster-creature-photographed-4204637

TBM, just went through GG's face book, of course they have the hump. He put his old labour hat on last night and sounded like a patriot for once, so of course the anti British, anti Zionists, didn't like what he said. whether it was popular or not is irrelevant, it's the truth that matters :tiphat:     

Sainty, that just goes to prove without a doubt, that the aye's are wrong. If Nessy got out and walked down the road, out of Scotland, what more proof could anyone need :tiphat:

Right to reside in Spain? We who hold British passports will still be British citizens in any event - so where is the risk?

Quote from: ramblarider on September 12, 2014, 06:32:56 AM

Quote from: Three Blind Mice on September 11, 2014, 23:58:36 PM

It won't bother me one way or te other, I live here now, would never dream of going back.

Hopefully you will be able to get dual nationality, then, as if there is a "Yes" vote Scotland will be out of the EU (until, or if,  they are are allowed to re-join) and your right to settle here will be gone. You only have that right as an EU Citizen. A 'Yes' vote means you lose that.

Your statistics only show part of the picture. They do not show the financial 'time bomb' Scotland has with an aging population...and a massive lack of currency reserves. Yes, I am aware the SNP have been saying they can continue to use the Pound just as before, and that there is no problem with EU membership, but anyone with half a brain can look at the facts of both situations and can see major problems. Just because Salmond says it will all be OK does not mean it will be.

You might be heading back to live in Scotland, like it or not.

Rambler we seem to be in some sort of paralel universe with this EU  lark ,when i ask Brits about the repercusions of not been in the EU most seem completly clue less ,2 folks actualy told me with holiday homes here that they were hoping UKIP  made substancial progress and given the chance to vote they would be voting to come out of the EU  as they were sick of eastern Eu folks coming to Britain.

just to remove any doubt If Brits are part of the EU ,you have the same rights as a Spanish citizen,if the Brits or the Scots arnt in the EU  you wont have.

the lights seem on,but no bodys aswering the door............. on this Brit /Scot EU withdrawl .

:tiphat:

Quote from: NormanM on September 12, 2014, 09:32:14 AM
Right to reside in Spain? We who hold British passports will still be British citizens in any event - so where is the risk?

No. Absolutely not.

The 'Citizenship' plans have been spelled out. Scotland would be an independent country, no longer part of the UK.  It will have its own passports. Scottish citizens will not be entitled to a 'UK' passport - they will need to use a Scottish passport. This will be a non-EU passport.

Upon Scotland leaving the UK, unless it manages some form of 'continuing membership' which the EU Commission has stated is "not possible", then Scottish citizens become non-EU citizens and will have the same right to live and work in the EU as someone from Nigeria or China. i.e, none at all.

I actually do not understand why this point has not been made clearer by the 'No' campaign.

See:

http://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/policy-primers/citizenship-borders-and-migration-independent-scotland

Basikly to put it in workshop language .

if were not in the EU  we will be up shnt  creek .

:tiphat:

I assume that by Scottish citizenship you mean those born in Scotland? If so, does this mean that all those that were born there have to have a Scottish passport? That all those currently residing in other parts of the UK will have no right to live and work there?

If that is the case, then there will be another million or more on their way back north of the border. Or will they be classed as illegal immigrants and allowed to stay?

Quote from: Tetley on September 12, 2014, 10:23:55 AM
just to remove any doubt If Brits are part of the EU ,you have the same rights as a Spanish citizen,if the Brits or the Scots arnt in the EU  you wont have.

the lights seem on,but no bodys aswering the door............. on this Brit /Scot EU withdrawl .

:tiphat:

Spot on.

You are either an EU citizen or you are not. If your country is not in the EU - then you cannot be an EU Citizen and cannot take advantage of the "free movement" rules.  The lack of understanding on this subject is staggering... and again highlights the sheer idiocy of giving people a vote on a topic they just do not understand.

The rest of the UK (NI, England and Wales) would be under zero obligation to allow citizens from an independent Scotland a "rUK" passport. Why should they? They do not give them to citizens from Eire... there would be no difference. Independence means just that. Independent. Not still part of the UK when it suits...

Given that it is highly, highly unlikely Scotland would be in the EU from day one, then those Scottish citizens also lose EU citizenship - just as they lose "UK" citizenship. That means no right to live or work in any other EU country (incidentally, that means no right to live or work in England or Wales too).

Quote from: felipe on September 12, 2014, 10:37:16 AM
I assume that by Scottish citizenship you mean those born in Scotland? If so, does this mean that all those that were born there have to have a Scottish passport? That all those currently residing in other parts of the UK will have no right to live and work there?

If that is the case, then there will be another million or more on their way back north of the border. Or will they be classed as illegal immigrants and allowed to stay?

If you were born in Scotland, you will be regarded as a Scottish citizen. If you do not have a secondary citizenship, that will be your sole nationality.

If Scotland is not in the EU, then you will be a citizen of a non-EU country. Simple as that.

The same would happen to English people if the remaining UK pulled out of the EU.

It is possible some "workarounds" MIGHT be negotiated... but that really is a "might".... not a sure thing, and no-one knows devil might be in the details. As things stand, the basic, fundamental RIGHT to live/work in Spain, for example, would be lost. Gone. How the 'English' government might look upon those non-EU Scottish citizens taking "British" jobs is anyone's guess....

I hope they have a lot of available jobs and housing in Scotland... and in England/Wales/NI too, because the days of people moving abroad to live and work with minimum hassle woulds be over for good.

I think anyone born in Scotland, but resident in the UK, not Scotland, will already be British, with a UK passport. I think it's silly to think the UK would turf out Scott's living here. They would still be EU residents. The only Scott's that won't be EU residents, are those that choose to take out Scottish passports and therefore declare themselves non UK citizens.
When all the fuss has died down and the decision is made, all kinds of new rules and laws will evolve to suit, so don't be worrying about it, have a wee dram and forget it all, coz we might all be blown off the face of the earth soon anyway. ;D It's not all bad news is it ;D  :tiphat:        

Quote from: webejamin on September 12, 2014, 11:04:03 AM
I think anyone born in Scotland, but resident in the UK, not Scotland, will already be British, with a UK passport. I think it's silly to think the UK would turf out Scott's living here. They would still be EU residents. The only Scott's that won't be EU residents, are those that choose to take out Scottish passports and therefore declare themselves non UK citizens.
When all the fuss has died down and the decision is made, all kinds of new rules and laws will evolve to suit, so don't be worrying about it, have a wee dram and forget it all, coz we might all be blown off the face of the earth soon anyway. ;D It's not all bad news is it ;D  :tiphat:        

Jamms
mi step mars local snp chap has already told here she will be getting a scotish passport and driving licence if it  a YES vote,also intresting,her kids wernt entitled to vote because they lived in England,Germany,Monaco all are scotts born & bread and one has a holiday home there.

spin the union wheel  :tiphat:

Spose anyone living in Scotland will only be entitled to a Scottish passport, provided they are Scottish anyway. I can see all kinds of aggro there, if it's a close thing, whichever way it goes, maybe even a Scottish civil war :o you know what they're like when they get out of their prams  :o they've done it before :o
Spain's gonna be at it next :o Maybe we should all go our own ways? Arbiland would be a good start ;D
A bloke was on the radio calling for an independent England, or at least an English parliament ??? only fair really I spose  ???   

Rambla rider.  Firstly, I hold aUK passport. Is that going to be taken away from me?  I think not.  Secondlythere is no such creature as an "EU citizen" as far as I am aware.

I have been wondering- if there is a yes vote  what will happen about health care? Will all travelers to and from Scotland need personal health and travel insurance?

Quote from: NormanM on September 13, 2014, 06:44:27 AM
Rambla rider.  Firstly, I hold aUK passport. Is that going to be taken away from me?  I think not.  Secondlythere is no such creature as an "EU citizen" as far as I am aware.

1. According to discussion documents circulating in official circles, the current view is that people born in Scotland would be regarded as Scottish, not British, citizens and would be unable to renew a 'current' UK passport when it expires. They would need to apply for a Scottish passport instead. If Scotland is not in the EU at that point, it would be a non-EU passport. Theresa May has voiced such an opinion too, though I cannot find a link to it. So, the answer to that is that yes, you could indeed find your current EU/UK passport taken away.

2. The term "EU Citizen" is defined as a "person having citizenship of a country belonging to the EU". It is used in multiple (thousands) of EU Directives and has legal effect in terms of rights of free movement, driving licenses, etc. It is a real term, with real meaning. As is "non-Eu citizen" - please see:

http://ec.europa.eu/justice/citizen/

Here you. This is what Theresa May has indicated.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/scottish-independence-uk-passport-loss-indication-1-2961819

"Mrs May made it clear that Scots may have no choice but to give up their British passports"

This is not scaremongering. This is reality.

Some of the things being quoted on here and in the media, are typical of the whole campaign and people are falling for it. As I said before, nobody is giving any facts, almost every quote by politicians and pundits, contain the words "may" "might" "possibly" "indications" "maybe" "I think" "would or could" The list is endless, Very few people are able to say what "will" happen with any of it, or what "is" going to happen. The reason for this kind of rhetoric, is to persuade people, by suggesting an outcome, not defining an outcome.
Call it what you like, nobody knows what will happen for definite, the yes voters are taking a chance, the no voters are playing it safe. One thing is for sure, most of the rhetoric, from most of the politicians and pundits is scaremongering, it's what they do best.
My dad always said "save your money for your old age" I said to him once "I probably won't live that long" he said "but you might" It did make me think ;)  :tiphat: 

Quote from: webejamin on September 13, 2014, 08:33:41 AM
Some of the things being quoted on here and in the media, are typical of the whole campaign and people are falling for it. As I said before, nobody is giving any facts, almost every quote by politicians and pundits, contain the words "may" "might" "possibly" "indications" "maybe" "I think" "would or could" The list is endless, Very few people are able to say what "will" happen with any of it, or what "is" going to happen. The reason for this kind of rhetoric, is to persuade people, by suggesting an outcome, not defining an outcome.
Call it what you like, nobody knows what will happen for definite, the yes voters are taking a chance, the no voters are playing it safe. One thing is for sure, most of the rhetoric, from most of the politicians and pundits is scaremongering, it's what they do best.
My dad always said "save your money for your old age" I said to him once "I probably won't live that long" he said "but you might" It did make me think ;)  :tiphat: 

I think it is more simple than that. I believe that the NO campaign, including the bods in London, all believed that Scotland would vote NO and never really thought about the consequences if they voted YES. Now that there is a genuine possibility that the vote will go the way of YES they are panicking to some degree. Hence all the 'could', might be' may be' etc.

The truth is that if they vote out then they will not be EU members that has already been stated by the EU. It is the consequences of that which is under scrutiny.     

 :notopic: ish and as an example only without wishing any offence.

Most Brits either holiday home owning or permant living in Spain have been brought up through out there working lifes on the common sence approach to buisness and living.

they invested here using the same theorys most of us were trained with,ie comon sence ,however..... as the illigal build situation has un folded and is still un resolved  governments dont always use the same ethics or common sence.

in my veiw
if its not in the Spanish rule book somewere that a non EU  cit can reside here on a pension or with limited funding ,most will have a devil of o job staying as a non EU  cit ,unless of coarse a deal was done by the EU GOVS.

a few years ago when the crisis started here the Sp gov were offering residency to Russian citizens spending & investing 250k plus.

the biggest thing thats opend my eyes here in all the time we have house owned here is my youngster starting law school and the amount of law types there are here, most of them been black or white and very inflexible.

i certainly dont want to loose Scotland or the united kigdom next week and i certainly dont want a united kingdom government taking us out of the EU  .

morning citizens    :tiphat:

I agree felipe, but it has worked on the potential yes voters too. By colouring up the answers with the same words, some people believe "may" meant "will". Some laws and rules will obviously have to be observed, but for the yes voters, it can't be just be about the EU.
The "yes" voters will hear the best scenarios, while the "no" voters will hear the worst.
Years ago, India won independence and some others too, but they kept the right to a British passport of sorts. Another thing, will Scotland be in the British commonwealth? Just another question :tiphat:        

Quote from: webejamin on September 13, 2014, 08:33:41 AM
every quote by politicians and pundits, contain the words "may" "might" "possibly" "indications" "maybe" "I think" "would or could" The list is endless, Very few people are able to say what "will" happen with any of it, or what "is" going to happen. The reason for this kind of rhetoric, is to persuade people, by suggesting an outcome, not defining an outcome.

That is because it is uncharted territory. It has never been close to happening before.

You are completely deluded, though, if you think they are just saying all this stuff about passports and citizenship "for effect". They are categorically not. As the law stands, right now, this is what would almost certainly HAVE to happen. There are well established rules on what HAS to happen at a border between an EU state and a non-EU state, for example. This is not 'optional'. There are also established rules on how citizens of an EU state are treated vs. those from non-EU states. These are not optional, either. There are also explicit rules on how states can become members. Again, that is not 'optional' either. It is required. Now... they COULD (in theory) change the rules, but that is a very long, complex and involved process indeed and some would almost certainly object, thereby blocking any such change. There would be no guaranteed outcome.

Those who seem to think life would just carry on as before quite simply do not "get it". The implications are profound and would have all kinds of unexpected effects on day-to-day life. Everything from placing mail orders between Scotland and the rest of the EU (customs controls would be obligatory), to passports, to driving licenses, to moving between Scotland and any other EU state, to money transfers, banking risks, to well... just about everything. Some of these have hardly even been considered yet, and no-one has definitive answers to what might really happen in all cases. You can certainly count on the fact, though, as Tetley says. Life would not get easier and simpler. It would get a whole lot more difficult and problematic.

one of the main things ive grassped over the last 2 years talking to people  in uk and here is that people have little understanding of ramifacations of not been in the EU and the restrictions it could or will bring if we exit.

either people just arnt grasping it or they are grasping it and are then convinceing themselfs that they will be un effected.

:tiphat:

That is what I find scary too. How little of it people really understand - and in this case, you have 16-year-olds voting on it...  absolute insanity in my opinion.  Democracy? It is complete madness.

I had a conversation just the other week with someone where they told me they "can't wait to ditch the EU". Why? "So we can deport terrorists and stop all those Poles and other 'foreigners' taking 'our' jobs" was the response. They told me they'd be voting for UKIP.

Where do they live full time? SPAIN!  :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

I equate this situation with a young person wanting to join a squat or commune assuming that this is total independence whilst still desiring to keep the key to the family home for when problems occur.

People who care realise this is pie in the sky ideology initially and try to  explain that it just swapping one set of problems for another because  there is always someone in any community, however small, who will make the rules plus in life there will always be the "haves"and "have nots".

As discussion leads to argument the key of the family home is removed .

The leader of the squat/ commune is over the moon promising you have entered utopia.......and then realisation sets in.....you have been isolated from those who really cared ..and there is no way back.

Quote from: ramblarider on September 13, 2014, 10:21:13 AM
That is what I find scary too. How little of it people really understand - and in this case, you have 16-year-olds voting on it...  absolute insanity in my opinion.  Democracy? It is complete madness.

I had a conversation just the other week with someone where they told me they "can't wait to ditch the EU". Why? "So we can deport terrorists and stop all those Poles and other 'foreigners' taking 'our' jobs" was the response. They told me they'd be voting for UKIP.

Where do they live full time? SPAIN!  :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

a large uk factory i know of is upping sticks and moving to China......... one chap told me..... thats it..... im now voteing UKIP as we have to make a stand....... :-X

Quote from: webejamin on September 13, 2014, 08:33:41 AM
Some of the things being quoted on here and in the media, are typical of the whole campaign and people are falling for it. As I said before, nobody is giving any facts, almost every quote by politicians and pundits, contain the words "may" "might" "possibly" "indications" "maybe" "I think" "would or could" The list is endless, Very few people are able to say what "will" happen with any of it, or what "is" going to happen. The reason for this kind of rhetoric, is to persuade people, by suggesting an outcome, not defining an outcome.
Call it what you like, nobody knows what will happen for definite, the yes voters are taking a chance, the no voters are playing it safe. One thing is for sure, most of the rhetoric, from most of the politicians and pundits is scaremongering, it's what they do best.
My dad always said "save your money for your old age" I said to him once "I probably won't live that long" he said "but you might" It did make me think ;)  :tiphat: 

The most correct and factual statement any body has made on this whole debate so far, nice one Webe. With the No vote politricks it,s all scaremongering and unfair media coverage. Scotland will vote yes, but either way it,s a win for Salmond and Scotland.

Well to be honest ,ive heared all the scares from big buisness ,uncle tom coblers and all infact the media manipulation is probably helping the yes vote more than its helping the no vote ,however i havent heard anybody on abought the possible impacts of not been in the EU................. i  wonder why  ?

:tiphat:

Since you have all the factual answers, obviously, maybe you could help me by explaining:

1. How will Scotland still be in the EU if they vote 'Yes', when the EU Commission have unequivocally stated that in such a case, they will not 'carry over' the UK's status but will need to apply as a separate entity? A process that takes years and requires the unanimous agreement of other EU members (including Spain and Belgium both of whom have good reasons for refusing)?

2. What currency will they be using?  If the same Pound Sterling as England, where will the Central Bank be located and how will they control monetary policy? Interest rates, etc? How will they not be reliant upon London for this?

3. In the event they are out of the EU and their application is denied or takes years, what will become of Scottish passport holders in terms of their right to love and work in EU states? Are their any guarantees in place to protect these individual's existing rights?

4. You think it is 'scaremongering' for the UK Home secretary to state that they would be unlikely to allow citizens of the 'new' Scotland British (EU) passports carrying the same rights as the current UK passport.  Please explain how they could lawfully allow citizens of an independent , third party non-EU state to travel on an EU passport.

I await enlightenment  :tiphat:

 ;D It's worse it's getting ;D

https://www.globalcreditportal.com/ratingsdirect/renderArticle.do?articleId=1354708&SctArtId=258487&from=CM&nsl_code=LIME&sourceObjectId=8779986&sourceRevId=1&fee_ind=N&exp_date=20240821-16:23:30
Standard & Poor's Global Credit Portal
www.globalcreditportal.com

The above is a link to the Standard & Poors assessment of the Scottish Economys' credit rating and value after the 18th September.
In short it states that a status quo is likely to apply for a number of months, as it is not possible to change everything overnight.
Consequently it suggests that the New Scotland should continue with the current credit status of AAA which it currently enjoys via the UK.
It states that the New Scotland economy is likely to need to lean heavily on revenue from oil and the financial services industry.
The report does not dwell on the oil revenue.
However the financial services industry cannot continue to provide products or services from an unregulated environment, which New Scotland will be from the 19th.
It will take New Scotland too long to create a fully regulated structure so the financial services sector will need to relocate to a fully regulated environment - the UK or similar. That's banks, insurance, investment and pensions companies.
Economic changes like this may mean a lowering of the Standard & Poors AAA credit rating.

I would say that the last thing New Scotland wants to do is gain Independence and then after the euphoria dies away, take a series of unthought out body blows which mean a head-in-hands rethink on the whole thing.
Very difficult times ahead for New Scotland and near neighbours if the Yes campaign wins.

Ramblarider - please see this from the same Theresa May@

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/the-issuing-withdrawal-or-refusal-of-passports

Also Note on Withdrawal of British Citizenship dated Sep 2014, based on s.40 of the British Nationality Act 1981 (as amended)
http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/research/briefing-papers/SN06820/deprivation-of-british-citizenship-and-withdrawal-of-passport-facilities

I and most Brits here are British nationals and citizens by birth, and subject to the provisions of the act may remain so unless they fall into the specific categories contained in S.40


I do not believe that that status can be anulled, other than by S.40 and subsequent proceedings

Quote from: NormanM on September 13, 2014, 15:18:09 PM
Ramblarider - please see this from the same Theresa May@

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/the-issuing-withdrawal-or-refusal-of-passports

Also Note on Withdrawal of British Citizenship dated Sep 2014, based on s.40 of the British Nationality Act 1981 (as amended)
http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/research/briefing-papers/SN06820/deprivation-of-british-citizenship-and-withdrawal-of-passport-facilities

I and most Brits here are British nationals and citizens by birth, and subject to the provisions of the act may remain so unless they fall into the specific categories contained in S.40


I do not believe that that status can be anulled, other than by S.40 and subsequent proceedings

I would suggest you read that again. This time note it only applies to BRITISH NATIONALS - which those born in Scotland WOULD CEASE TO BE once that becomes an independent country.

You would become a SCOTTISH CITIZEN if you were born there, not a BRITISH CITIZEN.  None of the above restrictions on passport or 'citizenship' withdrawal would apply to you. Those only relate to British citizens.

Just as... if the UK or Scotland... or England... left the EU, those of us who are currently EU Citizens would cease to be EU Citizens.

All the rights and entitlements associated with those respective nationalities or citizenships... gone. Lost. Given up.

The only way you could retain your status would be if (big if) the remaining UK government allowed you to apply for dual nationality. It has been made plain this would not be a formality. I quote:

"Mrs May made it clear that Scots may have no choice but to give up their British passports.

She said: "As I made clear to the honourable gentlemen who asked the question [Mr McCann], decisions on UK citizenship remain with the UK government, but if the vote in the referendum is for a separatist vote then Scotland will become a separate state – it will not be part of the UK.

"That is a very simple fact and I suggest the honourable member recognise that."

Cameron doing his best when he thought it couldn't happen, but it,s too close for comfort now, and the tories are going to give it loads of bull next week. I wouldn't be surprised if they try to link Salmond to Jimmy and old Rolf.http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron-scotland-will-never-get-independence-1050223

I guess that a person whose passport states " place of birth" as a place in Scotland will be okay until it needs renewing.
Whatever happens, after a yes vote, is going to take years to get everything organised. Meanwhile, chaos will reign..methinks.

Quote from: JessicaH on September 13, 2014, 17:29:18 PM
I guess that a person whose passport states " place of birth" as a place in Scotland will be okay until it needs renewing.

That seems to be what they are implying, but no guarantees or assurances of any kind have been given. They could simply say that if your place of birth is Scotland, you have 12 months to exchange it for a Scottish (Non-EU) version. No-one really knows.

This is the problem - Salmond & Co haven't thought this through at all.

I am also wondering about the health system in Scotland, which is currently better than England.  Can't see that situation continuing for long if the "Yes" vote wins.

All EU law and regulations already apply in Scotland, they are not on the outside trying to get in, They are and have been EU members for the last 40 years. They meet the criteria already. The other countries facing separatist problems might try to cause some problems and Scotland "MAY" need to reapply, but they will most certainly be in the EU. keeping the pound, the only trouble Scotland could have is the main political parties at Westminster blocking a currency union, we will allow you a vote for independence, but we will screw you on currency and threaten you with loads of sñit if you start getting close to a yes vote, and nothing has changed.  I would assume the majority of Scotts will want to change their British passport for a Scottish anyway, the no side may have a problem, but its a vote. I think next week is going to be very difficult for the yes vote, what untruths, scandals will be revealed about Salmond and his team. As Webe said, they are all talking and saying nothing, lots of could, might, possibly, maybe, even Theresa Maybe, states nothing for sure, or definite. all she  said is could lose. Like i could win the lottery, now that,s a fact, or maybe, possibly might win, all true i hope.  :rofl: :drinks: Ramblarider, why would anybody deny a Scottish passport holder the right to love anywhere on the planet, now that,s going over the top, but they will probably try to introduce it into next weeks politricks.

Quote from: macc on September 13, 2014, 19:37:12 PM
All EU law and regulations already apply in Scotland, they are not on the outside trying to get in, They are and have been EU members for the last 40 years. They meet the criteria already. The other countries facing separatist problems might try to cause some problems and Scotland "MAY" need to reapply, but they will most certainly be in the EU. keeping the pound, the only trouble Scotland could have is the main political parties at Westminster blocking a currency union

Let me set you straight on a few points.

Eu Law presently applies. It would cease to do so on 'Independence day'. This has been made crystal clear by the EU several times.

"If part of the territory of a member state would cease to be part of that state because it were to become a new independent state, the (EU) treaties would no longer apply to that territory," Barroso said, meaning an independent Scotland would no longer be part of the EU:

That remains the official position. They would be out, and would have to re-apply. There is no "may" about it.

They do not meet the criteria when considered separately from the rest of the UK.

There is not going to be a currency union. It has been categorically ruled out. Will not happen.

Scotland's chances of EU membership without their own stable currency is zero. In any event, it is now the case that new members must adopt the Euro - so they would have to drop the £ sterling regardless.

To answer your last point, only EU Citizens have a right to live and work in the EU. Once out of the EU, Scottish Citizens will not have that right. I fail to see why this is so hard to understand.

i think all the possible outcomes and problems have been thought out, dumbed down, and papered over, and people are hearing only what they want to hear.

No matter what the outcome, with the vote close to 50-50 all you will end up with is a deeply divided country, and an England that will just want to wash their hands and move on. My concern is God forbid the Scots go it alone and it turns pearshaped, who will be picking up the pieces?

  It is obvious the entire military machine will have to move south, no more building/repairing RN ships, Nuclear subs, Air force, and everything else all of which i suspect employ a massive sub contract workforce...so much will change, and only England and Wales will be the winners One thing for sure, the divorce will be very messy, it always is, and nobody wins in the end there are only losers.

 

Woe....woe .... and thrice woe !!!
For it came to pass that the humble sweaty sock was banished from the Kingdom of Spain and the EU for uttering the word .... YES !!!
Yet the impoverished citizens of the former Soviet Union having somehow not being able to qualify for EU membership have managed  to divert themselves past the EU qualification schools and having converted their roubles and sold their horse and carts are now buying more properties in Spain in the last six months than any other nationalities.
This is apparently due to the promise of Residency should they supposedly spend E250,000 plus, which will earn you a spanking new Spanish passport.
What part of EU policy is this ?
Will the newly presented Spanish passport contain the place of birth or has Moscow been renamed Madrid.
Will any Scottish pilots living and working in the current EU be banished off to the Shetland Isles  and will Jimbo the Scot have to change his name to "Urcal Ed"?

Tune in next week for another exciting episode.

Steady on, Macc. On a querty keyboard, the i and the o are adjacent, so ´"live" can easily be typed as "love".

Neanderthal, i just thought Ramblarider miss spelt it as a joke, but obviously not, but anyway,
two main options have been put on the table for (re-)accommodating an independent Scotland in the European Union: accession of an independent Scotland to the European Union by means of the procedure of accession of new member states set out in Article 49 TEU; or accommodation of Scotland as a new member state at the same time as it achieves independence, by means of a revision of the European Treaties according to Article 48 TEU. The latter option is supported by the Scottish government in its Scotland's Future White Paper of November 2013. The Treaty revision would enter into force at the same time as Scotland would become independent (and the government suggested a date for this to happen, namely 24 March 2016). In this way, there would be a seamless transition. Scotland would not first drop out of the EU by separating from the UK, and later climb in again through an accession treaty; it would simply stay inside the EU all the time.

One thing is for "certain", if there is an independent Scotland, the big money boys that say they "may" move out, "might" want to stay for fear of losing their Scottish customers money :o The big stores "may" increase their prices, but then they "might" not, coz Tesco's "might dive in and grab all the business :o
It "could be" that Scottish people, born in the UK "might" keep their UK British status "if" they want to, just like the Irish people "could" after independence.
I "hope" they vote no personally, but I do recognise a load of old bo#;#ks when I hear it and I'm hearing quite a lot of it, from all directions :whistle:

PS "If" I were Scottish, I'd "probably" feel a bit rebellious at the moment  ??? or "would" I  ???  

I hope they vote No,

But I think in the heat of the moment  the Yes vote will just win and let the blame game begin in Westminster, the sooner Lord Snooty and the Gonk sidekick get removed from office the better.

Quote from: macc on September 13, 2014, 20:57:24 PM

Neanderthal, i just thought Ramblarider miss spelt it as a joke, but obviously not, but anyway,
two main options have been put on the table for (re-)accommodating an independent Scotland in the European Union: accession of an independent Scotland to the European Union by means of the procedure of accession of new member states set out in Article 49 TEU; or accommodation of Scotland as a new member state at the same time as it achieves independence, by means of a revision of the European Treaties according to Article 48 TEU. The latter option is supported by the Scottish government in its Scotland's Future White Paper of November 2013. The Treaty revision would enter into force at the same time as Scotland would become independent (and the government suggested a date for this to happen, namely 24 March 2016). In this way, there would be a seamless transition. Scotland would not first drop out of the EU by separating from the UK, and later climb in again through an accession treaty; it would simply stay inside the EU all the time.

That totally ignores the fact that this requires a treaty revision - which can only happen if all member states agree to it. Both Spain and Belgium are deeply opposed to that in principle and would almost certainly veto it. It is wishful thinking and wildly optimistic. The reality is different.

Instead of believing this fanciful rubbish spouted by Salmond, listen to what people within the EU are saying:

http://www.euractiv.com/sections/eu-elections-2014/independent-scotland-would-have-reapply-eu-nato-officials-say-308295

"Barroso weighed in to the Scottish referendum debate when he told a BBC television interviewer in February that states breaking away from existing EU countries would struggle to gain EU membership.

All EU states would need to back the membership of any new country that emerged from a member state, he said.

"It would be extremely difficult to get approval of all the other member states ... I believe it's going to be extremely difficult, if not impossible,"

Throughout, Salmond has evaded and flat-out lied about this issue. I have no personal axe to grind as to what Scotland does. I really don't care - but I do care that people are making decisions on the basis of fantasy, not facts.

"But I do care that people are making decisions on the basis of fantasy, not facts" - fully agree RR, but isn't that what happens every time there is an election of any sort, whether it be local, national, european, or referendun?

It's one of the very few drawbacks of democracy, but this way the public does have some control over the lunatics in power.

I wonder how much trade Scotland does with EU countries? Do Scotland export more than they import? How many goods vehicles travel through EU countries to get to Scotland or vice versa?
Just asking coz I don't know. Mornin all :tiphat:

There seems to be so much wishful thinking on the issues concerned with Scottish independence. On the whole, I believe RR to be correct. Laws tend to be very definitive in the way they are framed; they could not really be otherwise. So if you wish to drive your car, whether in the UK or Spain, you must have your car licenced, have insurance and MOT or its equivalent. You may drive without these, but you are then breaking the law. Much the same applies to being a member of the UK, or the EU, or NATO.

Alex Salmond and Nigel Farage have much in common; they both want to resign from the Golf Club, but continue drinking at the bar. Snake oil salesmen both.

Is Jihadi John  going to have a big impact on the union, just watch the way the media and the no side work this load of scaremongering. Britain will go to war with the Islamic state next week, that may help the no vote a little.

That why laws are deffinative along with legal contracts signed by both partys,i think RR  is bang on the money ,i think anybody in doubt should pop along to there local Spanish Law Uni Librery and sit and read the laws regarding entry into Spain as a non EU  cit and also the laws regarding residing here as a non EU cit.

as for Scotland just popping back into the EU after king Salmond has been crownd,they will need to run it past Madrid first and with Cataluna champing for a referndum i carnt realy see that one happening any time soon.


have a nice day citizens  :tiphat:

as for john,just pay somebody to shoot the CXXXT  .

I don't think many people are under any illusions about the laws, it's all the other issues that are being twisted and turned by all sides, we don't need a pencil to work out the issues covered by any laws. When it comes to other issues, Salmond and his mob are like a bag of cats, but so are Cameron and co.
It's the dishonest twisting and misquoting of other peoples words, by people that can't win there arguments, the attempted discrediting of truths being told. Even people not involved are at it, thinking it makes them look clever. :tiphat:

Jammin
most of us understand that polatics is total Bollicks ,however the diffrence with this episode is that it may effect   ex pats out of Scotland a lot more than its going to effect them if they were back in Scotland .

there is one thing having housing issues here  wich may eventualy get sorted,it is a total diffrent thing not to have a free movment right to get to use your home or be a pensioner with no reciprocal health agrement.

lets be honest,if the uk bins the EU,but spain is quite happy to allow the 2 week Ryan air Benidorm beanos how many UK  pensioners will take op the cheap flights & hotels  in winter with no E111  or pay for over the top private medical insurence.

non of this is good ,my lad watched the news yesterday and asked,why are the Irish Orange men parading in Scotland..... i replyed there not Irish there Scotish.

hopefully by this time next week Scotland will still be part of the Uninted Kigdom.

:tiphat:

Quote from: Three Blind Mice on September 11, 2014, 23:58:36 PM
Those kids may well know little about politics, they also prob care less about them, but they can see what is happening all around them, they see the lack of jobs, the drugs, the hooker who sells herself for her daily fix, or to feed her kids, they see the depravation, they see the lack of hope, but they know who is responsible, that is why they are voting Yes.

What a load of baloney! So all these problems are the fault of the Union ?  These issues would suddenly disappear with Independence? And as for 16 year olds having a vote - that was just a cynical ploy by Salmond and his ilk to boost the yes vote. You say that these kids are politically ignorant and probably don't even care about them and that all politicians are liars - - but wow if they get Independence then everything will improve!  I have lived for considerable lengths of time in the west of Scotland and also in the East. In my experience there is definitely an anti English mentality in the west but in the East the attitude is very different- far more friendly in general and no anti English at all. The trouble is that emotions seem to cloud rational judgement.  The Union seems to me to be working well enough (look at other countries for comparison) so IMO 'if it aint broke don't try and fix it'.  :whistle:

This sort of HAS happened before, though not within the EU arena:

"The partition of Ireland (Irish: críochdheighilt na hÉireann) was the division of the island of Ireland into two distinct territories: Northern Ireland, a part of the United Kingdom, and the now Republic of Ireland, an independent state. Partition occurred when the British Parliament passed the Government of Ireland Act 1920 creating Northern Ireland and what was then Southern Ireland. From 1801 to 1920 the whole island had formed a constituent country of the United Kingdom. Before then it was the separate Kingdom of Ireland.
The Act of 1920 was intended to create two self-governing territories within Ireland that remained within the UK. The Act also contained provisions for co-operation between the two territories and for the eventual reunification of Ireland. However, partition was reinforced in 1922 when what was intended to be Southern Ireland separated from the United Kingdom as the Irish Free State."

I have entitlement to dual nationality as I was born in the UK, on the island of Ireland, even though it was in Northern Ireland. So I have 2 passports. Surely anyone who was born in the UK can't be stripped of their citizenship?!
God knows they manage to protect all the terrorists and ensure THEIR citizenship rights are protected.

Quote from: ramblarider on September 13, 2014, 10:21:13 AM
That is what I find scary too. How little of it people really understand - and in this case, you have 16-year-olds voting on it.

Which is exactly why Salmond gave them the vote. He has sold them his "snake oil" without them seeing through it.

Quote from: Karen4 on September 14, 2014, 22:23:21 PM
I have entitlement to dual nationality as I was born in the UK, on the island of Ireland, even though it was in Northern Ireland. So I have 2 passports. Surely anyone who was born in the UK can't be stripped of their citizenship?!
God knows they manage to protect all the terrorists and ensure THEIR citizenship rights are protected.

It is against international law to render someone 'stateless'. However, if they have dual nationality, one can be revoked. If you were born in a location that becomes another country, you would be considered a citizen of that country, not the one the country was a part of before it became independent. That is what it appears would happen in the case of Scotland if it left the UK.

The issue of dual citizenship with Eire is a different matter, it seems, so I would have thought certain legislation might be needed to deprive the Scots of their British citizenship, but at present the grounds appear to be different:

"Revocation of British nationality
Under the Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Act 2006, people with dual nationality who are British nationals can be deprived of their British citizenship if the Secretary of State is satisfied "deprivation is conducive to the public good"; there is a right of appeal.[28] This provision has been in force since 16 June 2006 when the Immigration, Nationality and Asylum Act 2006 (Commencement No 1) Order 2006 came into force.[29] Loss of British nationality in this way also applies to people born in the UK as British citizens and who also hold another nationality.[28][30] As the provision applies only to dual nationals, it cannot render a person stateless.

The Home Office does not issue information on these cases and is resistant to answering questions,[28] for example under the Freedom of Information Act 2000. As of 15 July 2013 at least 17 people had been deprived of their British citizenship, in most cases on the recommendation of MI5. Usually it appears that the government waits until the person has left Britain, then sends a warning notice to their British home and signs a deprivation order a day or two later.[28] Appeals are heard at the highly secretive Special Immigration Appeals Commission (SIAC), where the government can submit evidence that cannot be seen or challenged by the appellant.[28]

Previously since 2003 under the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002, British nationals could be deprived of their citizenship if the Secretary of State was satisfied they were responsible for acts seriously prejudicial to the vital interests of the United Kingdom or an Overseas Territory.

British nationals who are naturalised or registered may lose British nationality if it was obtained by fraud or concealment of a material fact. The nationality laws of the US, Canada and Australia have similar provisions to revoke local nationality from citizens who gained such citizenship via naturalisation."

Quote from: Karen4 on September 15, 2014, 06:55:15 AM
The issue of dual citizenship with Eire is a different matter, it seems, so I would have thought certain legislation might be needed to deprive the Scots of their British citizenship

No.  Because they would not have any British citizenship to be deprived of. They would have, in effect, Scottish citizenship, backdated, if you will..

See my replies earlier in the thread on this subject.

The real issue is that none of this has been adequately spelled out by either the "Yes" or the "No" side - so people are left guessing. Salmond has made various claims, but the simple fact is, it is not up to him alone. Others would have to agree - and they may not...

I think you are right Karen. If you are born in the UK, you were born in the UK. Same as Irish people born in Ireland before independence. I don't think any part of Britain has broken away since (though I expect some bright spark will come up with one). It would indeed be a case of sour grapes, if Scottish people living in Spain, were deprived of their UK nationality. There are those of course that will quote the laws at you that are generally used for defining citizenship, indeed there was (I'm told) a great fuss over the Irish peoples right to a UK passport after independence. I know plenty of people that have UK passports but were born in Ireland, they also have UK and Irish pensions.
I think that there's quite a bit of ill wishing amongst the "no" supporters as with the "yes" brigade, which of course amounts to scaremongering.

Quote from: ramblarider on September 15, 2014, 08:32:31 AM
The real issue is that none of this has been adequately spelled out by either the "Yes" or the "No" side - so people are left guessing. Salmond has made various claims, but the simple fact is, it is not up to him alone. Others would have to agree - and they may not...

Like I've said before, plenty of May's and may not's. :tiphat: Mornin all, looks like a nice day, think I'll go fishin  ;D  

Quote from: bobthelook on September 14, 2014, 14:30:25 PM

Quote from: Three Blind Mice on September 11, 2014, 23:58:36 PM
Those kids may well know little about politics, they also prob care less about them, but they can see what is happening all around them, they see the lack of jobs, the drugs, the hooker who sells herself for her daily fix, or to feed her kids, they see the depravation, they see the lack of hope, but they know who is responsible, that is why they are voting Yes.

What a load of baloney! So all these problems are the fault of the Union ?  These issues would suddenly disappear with Independence? And as for 16 year olds having a vote - that was just a cynical ploy by Salmond and his ilk to boost the yes vote. You say that these kids are politically ignorant and probably don't even care about them and that all politicians are liars - - but wow if they get Independence then everything will improve!  I have lived for considerable lengths of time in the west of Scotland and also in the East. In my experience there is definitely an anti English mentality in the west but in the East the attitude is very different- far more friendly in general and no anti English at all. The trouble is that emotions seem to cloud rational judgement.  The Union seems to me to be working well enough (look at other countries for comparison) so IMO 'if it aint broke don't try and fix it'.  :whistle:
[
I never said the problems would disappear with a Yes vote, I also never said the fault was with the union, tho I believe it is.
I did say in a subsiquent post that Salmond pulled off a master stroke by giving the kids a vote.
Under no illusion that everything will be rosy in the indy garden, it won't, but in time I believe it will be better that presently.

And it's no working/quote]

Quote from: webejamin on September 15, 2014, 09:17:49 AM
Like I've said before, plenty of May's and may not's. :tiphat: Mornin all, looks like a nice day, think I'll go fishin  ;D  

Quite. That is where I have a problem with this situation. People are being asked to make a once in a lifetime, forever, vote without actually knowing what the consequences will be on some basic, but critically important issues. That is reckless, and bonkers.

I cannot quite understand why both sides did not get together and spell out - clearly - what would happen to citizenship, passports, driving licenses, border controls, currency etc.

Instead - people are being asked to vote without having any definitive answers! How can you vote on that basis?  

Even when you have the Bank of England and leaders of the three main parties in England saying "there will never be a currency union", you have Salmond continuing to insist there will be... so maybe it simply proved impossible to arrive at an "agreed" position... who knows...

If I was Scottish my reaction would be that I would not be able to vote until I had some straight answers to these issues. Currently, people are being expected to vote without a clue as to what will happen. As I said before, to me, that is ridiculous.

Well my theory is,is that no body is shouting abought the EU  loss bit  ,because Camron will be in the same boat in two years time with his EU referendum  and folks asking questions just isnt tennis when your attempting to guide the masses with bolaticks    ;D

after Thursadays "YES " we can all look foarward to years of far right tory English  government ,infact whats needed is for the PM  to change his name to" Dave  Cromwell our lord protector " in readyness   :crazy:


;)

I actually don't think it should have been just up to Scotland to decide anyway - if you're part of a union then all parties to that union should be voting, not just Scotland.

I agree with you entirely! I was talking earlier today on Facebook to my friend Deirdre, who is a councillor in the Highland region in Scotland, and this was her message:

Karen, I am frightened, truly frightened. This vote is too close to call and these nationalists are horrible, mad or both..... Alex Salmond has succeeded in splitting my lovely, peaceful country right down the middle. Losing sleep, dry mouth, upset stomach. Pray for us my friend as we are truly staring into the abyss. xx

As for 16 year olds voting....they'll have been force fed the "Braveheart" illusion....

I am English by birth but have lived in Central and NE Scotland for +40 years. It's a beautiful part of the world and most of the Scots are lovely people. Scotland's First Minister is a master at dodging the real issues, he'll say anything to get a vote, only if there is a Yes decision will he eventually be exposed...Too Late! Bringing 16 year old in to vote confirms his desperation.  There is very much an anti English feeling here and a lot of people are voting Yes to 'get rid of England' they aren't looking at the bigger picture. When it hits their pockets they'll start complaining but sorry folks, you've made your bed now lie in it. It will be tragic if the UK is split up, for England, Wales, Northern Ireland AND Scotland - we really are Better Together. Fingers crossed common sense prevails on Thursday.

Quote from: Karen4 on September 15, 2014, 13:54:03 PM
I actually don't think it should have been just up to Scotland to decide anyway - if you're part of a union then all parties to that union should be voting, not just Scotland.

It also would have been a good idea to let all the Scots vote ie the ones not based in Scotland but born Scot,there would have been 3 no votes in our famiy streight away.

:tiphat:

Quote from: Tetley on September 15, 2014, 16:49:46 PM

Quote from: Karen4 on September 15, 2014, 13:54:03 PM
I actually don't think it should have been just up to Scotland to decide anyway - if you're part of a union then all parties to that union should be voting, not just Scotland.

It also would have been a good idea to let all the Scots vote ie the ones not based in Scotland but born Scot,there would have been 3 no votes in our famiy streight away.

:tiphat:

Quite right. The whole thing stinks. Scottish born people living outside Scotland don't get a vote yet 160,000 "Non British Europeans", including Spanish, Belgians etc. WILL get a vote.

Surely if you are working in Scotland and from another EU country you would vote NO as otherwise you could be out of Scotland soon.

I seriously wouldn't put it past Cameron and Salmon to have done a deal on the referendum. Cameron "may" have said "look Al old chap, lets you and I feed both our people bullshit, just to make it look like we don't agree, then you'll end up with Scotland to do as you please with and I'll end up being boss of the rest, forever"  OK mate ?:o  Then Alex replied "och aye  ;D suits me sir"  ;D
Then, after independence is declared, both Scottish and British working class people, go back to the dark ages :tiphat:

Quote from: Rod on September 15, 2014, 17:13:49 PM
Surely if you are working in Scotland and from another EU country you would vote NO as otherwise you could be out of Scotland soon.

we have UKIPERS  home owners this end .............. :lol:  who knows if the EU Folks  will vote to leave the sasanks    :)

Quote from: Rod on September 15, 2014, 17:13:49 PM
Surely if you are working in Scotland and from another EU country you would vote NO as otherwise you could be out of Scotland soon.

Both the Belgians and the Spanish have an interest in this vote as they have regions who want Independence, so will be keen to see what happens with the EU in the event of a Yes vote. The Poles hate the English as they believe we view them as "spongers", the list goes on.

Let's just hope that many of the "yes" voters are just saying they will vote "yes" to look cool, but vote "no" coz at the end of the day they've got more sense, nobody will know anyway :whistle:

Just another thought. After the results, I think there could be all kinds of problems, for the UK or Scotland. A yes vote may well invoke all kinds of trouble on the streets in Scotland coz they're not known for taking a beating lightly. I suspect the no's will win by maybe 10%, but then all the promises made by Cameron will have to be argued and of course he will welsh on all of them. So, watch for skin and hair flying, whatever the outcome :o   

Quote from: webejamin on September 15, 2014, 17:21:58 PM
I seriously wouldn't put it past Cameron and Salmon to have done a deal on the referendum. Cameron "may" have said "look Al old chap, lets you and I feed both our people bullshit, just to make it look like we don't agree, then you'll end up with Scotland to do as you please with and I'll end up being boss of the rest, forever"  OK mate ?:o  Then Alex replied "och aye  ;D suits me sir"  ;D
Then, after independence is declared, both Scottish and British working class people, go back to the dark ages :tiphat:

It would appear Salmond doesn't do the bullshit stuff, he knows exactly what he is doing and what he is saying and what he wants. Independence, It is not something new for him, it,s just the same old same old fight, but this time i think he has the support he deserves, who knows, we will have to wait and see. This video is nearly 20 years old, but the debate could have been from last week. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=if-2A47U5PQ

Sorry, Ramblarider, I think your interpretation of statute is incorrect. I rather hold to my, and Karen's view.

Now, I am not a lawyer - I suspect you are - and indeed, you have provided excellent advice and interpretation here in the past, much of which I have valued.

That said, I have spent too many hours in court as a specialist witness - usually successfuly - so I am reasonably happy with my ability to interpret statute.  I have, in my time, deemed it necessary to dismiss a couple of lawyers who I though were not representing my employers case adequately

However, arguement is the spice of debate. We may have to agree to disagree!

I am Scottish and very proud to be so my 3 sons and wife were born in England and proud to be English, Independence does not take away your pride in your birthright but can and will isolate Scotland. Remember it is not politicians who run the Country it is the Bankers (feel free to replace the B with a letter of your own choice) it is they and not the politicians or the EU or anybody else who would decide Scotlands future they have already brought us to the brink once,that is why I think the Scottish will overwhelmingly vote NO and stay where we belong as part of a Great United Kingdom

Quote from: NormanM on September 15, 2014, 20:56:25 PM
Sorry, Ramblarider, I think your interpretation of statute is incorrect. I rather hold to my, and Karen's view.

I think you will find Theresa May (much though I dislike her intensely) took advice from the Home Office immigration and nationality specialist lawyers before she answered remarks made by an SNP MP in Parliament. This MP suggested that ""of course after an independent Scotland it will be possible to keep a UK passport".

Her response:

"The Honourable gentleman should think very carefully about what he has said," and added: "Decisions on UK citizenship remain with the UK Government, but if the vote in the referendum is for a separatist vote then Scotland will become a separate state – it will not be part of the UK"

"That is a very simple fact and I suggest the honourable member recognise that."

Also worth recalling that after the Soviet Union broke up, USSR citizens were forced to take up just one of the 'new' nationalities, and lost all rights (for what they were worth) associated with their previous passport.  There are other precedents for this. I find it hard to understand why citizens of a independent Scotland would want a "UK" passport, actually, after all the effort put into becoming a separate entity. Separate and independent means what it says on the tin. The point made by Mrs May in response to that question.

"I find it hard to understand why citizens of a independent Scotland would want a "UK" passport, actually, after all the effort put into becoming a separate entity" - I suspect that IF they had a choice, those people who didn't vote for Independence may well prefer to keep their UK Nationality - and that will be over half the population.

Good point. Quite right.

Unfortunately, if the "Yes" vote wins, they may not have a choice in the matter.

Quote from: byrney on September 16, 2014, 07:24:36 AM
"I find it hard to understand why citizens of a independent Scotland would want a "UK" passport, actually, after all the effort put into becoming a separate entity" - I suspect that IF they had a choice, those people who didn't vote for Independence may well prefer to keep their UK Nationality - and that will be over half the population.

bryns,you have it,if its a Yes vote by say 51/60% the other 40 plus % are going to have the hump,along with the folks kicked out of the uk/eu without even getting the vote,then we will have our English Gov toys out of the pramers,probably been advised to make it as difficult as possible for the new scotland just incase it gives any other folks any grand ideas.....example Catalunia.

RR  i still think your on the money expalaing the vagaries of the all new" Scotish firm " non of this is going to have a happy ending on friday if its a Yes, there could even be anti English feelings on the streets of Scotland wile all the moneys & goodys are been divid up....... at a later date,specialy if it turns out King Ali has F.. up on the sums.

hey ho tick the box  :tiphat:

Sorry if I have missed a bit of this but there is so much.
I asked previously how you could change a system to allow 16 yr olds to vote.
Surely because the voting age is 18 in Britain and this vote is still taking place in Britain until the outcome is know, it should still be 18 ???
Hopefully someone can answer this.
(If you can change things like this overnight, they can change anything at the moment anyway ?

Am I right in remembering that when the thirteen colonies decided to be independent and call themselves the USA, a good many Americans who disagreed with this moved North into Canada? So, if there is a "yes" vote in Scotland, can we expect a large number of migrants moving South into England, as well as those businesses that have already declared their intention to do so?

Quote from: PhillipJLloyd on September 16, 2014, 08:36:06 AM
Sorry if I have missed a bit of this but there is so much.
I asked previously how you could change a system to allow 16 yr olds to vote.
Surely because the voting age is 18 in Britain and this vote is still taking place in Britain until the outcome is know, it should still be 18 ???
Hopefully someone can answer this.
(If you can change things like this overnight, they can change anything at the moment anyway ?

David Cameron and his cabinet gave permission for the vote on Scotland's future, they were also fully aware of the 16 year old voters. He didn't need a pencil to work out how that would increase the number of "yes" voters. In the process, maybe he hoped to rid his Tory party of a sizable chunk of opposition in parliament permanently.

Quote from: ramblarider on September 16, 2014, 04:41:10 AM
"The Honourable gentleman should think very carefully about what he has said," and added: "Decisions on UK citizenship remain with the UK Government, but if the vote in the referendum is for a separatist vote then Scotland will become a separate state – it will not be part of the UK"
"That is a very simple fact and I suggest the honourable member recognise that."
Separate and independent means what it says on the tin. The point made by Mrs May in response to that question.

A typical political response, leaving it open to interpretation as many ways as she likes. Of course, everyone knows Scotland will become a separate state. She just avoided saying "NO, Scottish people will not be able to keep a UK passport, but some might"  :whistle:    

A balanced and realistic overview:

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/scottish-independence-hits-north-sea-oil-investments-1457261

Plus Ian Wood:

http://www.energyvoice.com/2014/09/scottish-independence-opinion-future-oil-gas-reserves/

I absolutely challenge anyone to say how deep-sea fracking is going to develop if at all. As of this point, it's fantasy.

SNP numbers have been a massive exercise in chicken-counting. //

Quote from: webejamin on September 15, 2014, 20:30:27 PM
Just another thought. After the results, I think there could be all kinds of problems, for the UK or Scotland. A yes vote may well invoke all kinds of trouble on the streets in Scotland coz they're not known for taking a beating lightly. I suspect the no's will win by maybe 10%, but then all the promises made by Cameron will have to be argued and of course he will welsh on all of them. So, watch for skin and hair flying, whatever the outcome :o   

It's actually to "WELCH" on something NOT welsh. Ignoramus.! :redcard:

Thank you Imj52
http://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/welsh_3

But you can say welch if you want to, it all comes down to the same thing :tiphat: no need for an apology  ;D

Today, Spain's minister for foreign affairs:

"It is crystal clear that any partner member state that leaves the member state is out of the European Union. If they want to apply again, they would have to follow the procedure of article 49 of the treaties. That means the status of candidates should be granted to the new candidates. This decision has to be taken unanimously. Then it has to go into a negotiation of the 35 chapters. At the end of this negotiation there is also a vote, by unanimity. Then, if again this is granted, it has to go to the European parliament, where a vote is taken by the absolute majority of its members. If at the end of the process, a new vote is granted, it has to go through ratification process of the 28 member states ... It is a process that takes more or less five years"

So - if they vote 'Yes' on Thursday, Scotland WILL be out of the EU for at least 5 years. Further, Spain will have to agree to them re-joining.

Quote from: webejamin on September 16, 2014, 16:08:33 PM
Thank you Imj52
http://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/welsh_3

But you can say welch if you want to, it all comes down to the same thing :tiphat: no need for an apology  ;D

No apology due, but lets take this to another thread as we are highjacking this one. Google a bit more you will find WELCH means mant things from a bunch of grapes, to a bear,etc..
It is confused with Welsh as many people cannot pronounce welsh words, or miss use terms such as taffy. Which does NOT mean all welshmen      :tiphat:

RR at the risk of mantaly tipping you over the edge  ;)

so if its a yes,the scots are out of the EU friday  ? or will it be a gradual process ie Doris & Daves passport runs out 2016 until then they have a uk eu one so no problem here in spain but after 2016 when ther passports run out ,they can no longer apply in England for an English / EU  passport because there place of birth is Glasgow ,so they get Scotish ones ,but they are then classed as an EU  alien so will have no right of free movment or pensioner medical in Spain.

is this correct is,or have i pressed to many grapes to day on the wine making   :drinks:

sorry to sound bleak and i dont want to pxxs anybody off as its a genuine concearn.

:tiphat:

As as far as is known...

They remain 'in' until 'Independence Day' which would be (according to the SNP, March 24 2016).

After that they cease to be an EU member and Scottish Citizens would no longer be regarded as "UK Citizens". If they have existing UK passports, they could retain them until expiry - when they would have to get a Scottish passport instead.

Correct. As non-EU citizens no right of free movement or reciprocal healthcare.

Unless Salmond really is a miracle-worker and manages to change the minds of the UK government and all the EU governments in less than 18 months...

Thanks  RR :tiphat:

very depressing if its a yes,specialy when you think of how many Scotts have given there lifes in 2 world wars for European freedom and to save the united kingdom from jack boot Tierney

were going bleeding backwards..... :head

This has probably been one of the best threads on the forum for a long time. Will be interesting to see the outcome of the vote tomorrow and the implications over the next 18 months or so.
As has already been said i cannot how people can vote yes or no, as the FACTS have not been told.
1. Border controls or lack of, and impact.
2. Becoming non uk nationals.
3. Scottish passports even if you voted no?
4. Free movement within EU?
5. Those with properties in other countries such as Spain France etc can they stay there?
6. Currency?
7. Banks and businesses cannot have a head office in a foreign country, i,e, Scotland. Change of name for RBS? lol
8. If a no vote, more powers to Scotland anyway? Perhaps Salmond not so dumb! Should this affect English Govt and Welsh Govt?
9. Foreigners, eg Germans Belgians living in Scotland. can they stay?
10 Defence?
11. Oil production: what are the correct figures?
12. Health service
13. Taxation including VAT.
14. House prices
etc  etc   

We MAY know tomorrow

http://eulawanalysis.blogspot.com.es/2014/05/what-happens-to-british-expatriates-if.html

this was in intresting read.

:tiphat:

Salmond and Cameron go to the EU office and say, look, we want to divide our EU membership into two, how could you, the EU object, and then Cameron says, well we,re planning on leaving anyway so i don't know what all the fuss is about, i,m just doing it to help jock here, and i think it will be a hell of a lot less hassle to keep Scotland in than to try and untangle the huge web of applicable treaties, and anyway, when East Germanys reunification came about and they entered the EU overnight, why did all the laws that are been thrown about now not apply to East Germany then, and then the guy behind the desk with the Hitler style mustache says,  the EU is above all else a highly political community. Vhen we face a situation outside our experience or rulebook, politics - of power and ingenuity - take over,  and not this bullshit you are watching on sky news, and BBC. In the face of German reunification in 1990, the former East Germany became part of the EU overnight, yes overnight no problems with a sweeping delay for it to meet most EU rules, because they didn't really meet the criteria, but it saved us loads of snit. Now faced with the opposite, a country like Scotland - that already meets and is part of all EU criteria, laws and processes (with the exception of hassle from Westminster, UK's border, currency, and partial justice opt-outs), the simplest, least complicated approach for all concerned, and to save on overtime, would be for Scotland never to leave us, and that,s what will happen.                                                             

Quote from: lmj52 on September 16, 2014, 17:01:45 PM

Quote from: webejamin on September 16, 2014, 16:08:33 PM
Thank you Imj52
http://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/welsh_3

But you can say welch if you want to, it all comes down to the same thing :tiphat: no need for an apology  ;D

No apology due, but lets take this to another thread as we are highjacking this one. Google a bit more you will find WELCH means mant things from a bunch of grapes, to a bear,etc..
It is confused with Welsh as many people cannot pronounce welsh words, or miss use terms such as taffy. Which does NOT mean all welshmen      :tiphat:

:lol: come on Imj52  apologise! Webjamin was quite correct in the context in which the word was used - - and you did call him an ignoramus!!  :lol:

As the UK became a member of the EU with Scotland as an integral part, come a "Yes" vote, would the remainder of the UK have to reapply for membership along with an independent Scotland?

to lmj52,
number 15...the value of the £ against the € is likely to fall if the vote is Yes.
It's already fallen a few cents on the indications shown by the Polls.

It was around 1.2650 at the beginning of Sept.....then the Polls showed that the Yes vote had moved ahead and it reduced to about 1.2450 over the week....moved up again over the next few days and this mid-morning dropped to 1.2480.  Finished the day strongly at 1.2557. Let's hope it stays there. Fingers crossed.

The weans will decide who wins the vote.

It will be a YES, no doubt.

Two more sleeps till Indy day  :tiphat:

Quote from: byrney on September 16, 2014, 19:43:41 PM
As the UK became a member of the EU with Scotland as an integral part, come a "Yes" vote, would the remainder of the UK have to reapply for membership along with an independent Scotland?

No.

Thanks RR.

Saw the Dimbleby programme last night with interviews with Brown and Salmond. Hardly any pertinent questions to Salmond. Only topic of note was when Salmond said that it would be good to have two voices in the EU, no mention that they would not be in it.

I happened to be chatting last night with a friend of mine who is in the INS (Immigration and Nationality Service) in the US. He pointed out that there would be some "serious issues" to resolve with EU/US visas, for example if Scotland left the UK/EU. There would be no agreements in place, and a "new state" would need to negotiate these afresh. One effect is that (in his view) the US would be unlikely to automatically extend the Visa Waiver program to citizens of an independent Scotland - so until (if) an agreement was reached (not a quick process), then Scottish citizens wishing to visit the US would require a "full" visa every trip.  Those visas are far from a formality....

Just one more consequence that no-one has appeared to even consider.

Quote from: Rod on September 17, 2014, 07:59:11 AM
Saw the Dimbleby programme last night with interviews with Brown and Salmond. Hardly any pertinent questions to Salmond. Only topic of note was when Salmond said that it would be good to have two voices in the EU, no mention that they would not be in it.

Saw that too Rod, What always gets me is Salmonds sheer, confident air ;D All the others seem to be filled with dread :o but not Salmond ;D
I think Cameron has a right to be feeling that way :( coz whatever the outcome, he has a few questions to answer :o
I'll be glad when it's all over, I'm fed up hearing bloody bagpipes on the telly all the time. I hope the "no's" win and we all stay together, but whatever happens, there will be wigs on the green for years to come :tiphat: 

No one has mentioned Loraine (ITV) mornings. Does she go back with the 'deal'?

The answer to all these difficult questions...

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/scottish-independence-man-finds-piece-4270767

Reassuring to see pages of newspapers devoted to such intelligent and informative analyses......

Quote from: ramblarider on September 17, 2014, 10:14:52 AM
The answer to all these difficult questions...

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/scottish-independence-man-finds-piece-4270767

Reassuring to see pages of newspapers devoted to such intelligent and informative analyses......

Well that's it then! Wish we had seen this earlier, would have saved so much debate. :lol:

The sad part is,somebody will actualy think Englands been covered in bread crumbs on friday as well.................................

O0

 ;D Looks like wales has gone too, all but a little pimple :o That picture must be an omen ;D

Quote from: webejamin on September 17, 2014, 11:56:37 AM
;D Looks like wales has gone too, all but a little pimple :o That picture must be an omen ;D

OOps! I don't think wales will go for independence. But will have interesting discussions on why Scotland is to have more powers. :whistle: :handshake

Quote from: ramblarider on September 17, 2014, 10:14:52 AM
The answer to all these difficult questions...
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/scottish-independence-man-finds-piece-4270767 Reassuring to see pages of newspapers devoted to such intelligent and informative analyses......

IMO it's fowl journalism - - - ;)

 ;D After a second glance at the picture, it looks more like something completely different  :o ;D

Quote from: webejamin on September 17, 2014, 12:51:18 PM
;D After a second glance at the picture, it looks more like something completely different  :o ;D

yer jams,its scampi   :king:  :queen:

Personally don't really like Gordon Brown, made too many mistakes in Government, but he gave one hell of a speech today!!
:tiphat: :tiphat: :handshake

Soooo, since Tony Blair was born in Scotland and was, arguably, the architect of the current debacle,will he have to have a Scottish passport if it's a "yes" vote tomorrow? Will he be (more of) and alien (than usual) in the world? Will his pension be affected?  I wonder?

apparently Kay burleys has just called a yes person a knob  :o  and the EU  chappies have deffintly said no way jose on Scotland joining theeU on its own.

O0

I am Scottish by birth.  British by nationality, indeed, proud to be so..  I am astounded that the Home Secretary could stoop to threatening to withdraw the passports of those several thousand of us Scots who live in Spain or other foreign parts, and have not even been granted a vote by those in power over the future of our country of birth. It seems to be fine for jihadists to hold a UK passport, but not for us.

I was a waverer. I tried to weigh the options, and for the most part, heart said "Yes" and brain said "No."

The final straw, for me, was the pathetic attempt at bribery by Cameron et al.  Stay with us and we will give you all sorts of little goodies.

In1791, Robert Burns wrote

"But pith and power, till my last hour,
I'll mak this declaration;
We're bought and sold for English gold-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!"

And here comes Cameron trying on the same trick

For me, that was it.

Quote from: NormanM on September 17, 2014, 18:34:26 PM
I am Scottish by birth.  British by nationality, indeed, proud to be so..  I am astounded that the Home Secretary could stoop to threatening to withdraw the passports of those several thousand of us Scots who live in Spain or other foreign parts, and have not even been granted a vote by those in power over the future of our country of birth. It seems to be fine for jihadists to hold a UK passport, but not for us.

She was not 'stooping', or making 'threats'. She was pointing out facts. If Scotland leaves the UK, those who are Scottish by birth will no longer be UK citizens. It is pretty simple.

As for not being given a vote, I totally agree. I believe it was the Scottish politicians who vetoed that. I would be fuming if my rights were taken away like that without so much as a chance to vote on it. It really is pretty disgraceful.

I foresee an awful lot of very angry Scottish ex-pats if the vote is 'Yes' tomorrow - once the reality of it sinks in, and things they can do now become impossible in 18 months time. As Rajoy was saying today, their chances of EU membership are not good at all - and he has a veto which could stop them in their tracks for years, which I have no doubt he would use as a warning to the Catalans.

Salmond said last night the YES had  ,had a lot of support from ex pats to vote yes ,I Dont think the bloke could lay streight in bed.

:tiphat:

Quote from: Tetley on September 17, 2014, 19:14:15 PM
Salmond said last night the YES had  ,had a lot of support from ex pats to vote yes ,I Dont think the bloke could lay streight in bed.

:tiphat:

I suspect if he really had, he'd have made sure they had a right to vote!

Turkey's generally do not vote for Christmas, however.

Quote from: ramblarider on September 17, 2014, 19:24:44 PM

Quote from: Tetley on September 17, 2014, 19:14:15 PM
Salmond said last night the YES had  ,had a lot of support from ex pats to vote yes ,I Dont think the bloke could lay streight in bed.

:tiphat:

I suspect if he really had, he'd have made sure they had a right to vote!

Turkey's generally do not vote for Christmas, however.

He did RR under questions from Adam Bolton ,i sent a question in asking abought EU  ex pats free movment & medical if its a yes vote, but he never asked that one........  :whistle:

(using  correct spelling & gramer  :) )

Quote from: ramblarider on September 17, 2014, 18:58:39 PM

Quote from: NormanM on September 17, 2014, 18:34:26 PM
I am Scottish by birth.  British by nationality, indeed, proud to be so..  I am astounded that the Home Secretary could stoop to threatening to withdraw the passports of those several thousand of us Scots who live in Spain or other foreign parts, and have not even been granted a vote by those in power over the future of our country of birth. It seems to be fine for jihadists to hold a UK passport, but not for us.

She was not 'stooping', or making 'threats'. She was pointing out facts. If Scotland leaves the UK, those who are Scottish by birth will no longer be UK citizens. It is pretty simple.

As for not being given a vote, I totally agree. I believe it was the Scottish politicians who vetoed that. I would be fuming if my rights were taken away like that without so much as a chance to vote on it. It really is pretty disgraceful.

I foresee an awful lot of very angry Scottish ex-pats if the vote is 'Yes' tomorrow - once the reality of it sinks in, and things they can do now become impossible in 18 months time. As Rajoy was saying today, their chances of EU membership are not good at all - and he has a veto which could stop them in their tracks for years, which I have no doubt he would use as a warning to the Catalans.



RR People just don't get it do they!!
I have read and agreed with all your posts. If they do vote Yes i hope they will accept the consequences!!  :drinks:

So, again, if people born in Scotland will no longer be British citizens, where does that leave Tony Blair? Hopefully shipped off to the Middle East so he can continue to be their peace envoy....

Quote from: Karen4 on September 17, 2014, 20:18:35 PM
So, again, if people born in Scotland will no longer be British citizens, where does that leave Tony Blair? Hopefully shipped off to the Middle East so he can continue to be their peace envoy....

if his spouse is english he should be ok ,unless of course England jumps over the EU  cliff as well in a couple of years time.................... ;)

I understand his spouse is alien..... :alien:

Quote from: Karen4 on September 17, 2014, 21:19:08 PM
I understand his spouse is alien..... :alien:

she has probably represented a few   ;)

anyway if the scots & english leave the EU  i can see a nice buisness line in arranged marriges to southern irish EU  passport holding ladys   ;)  (or chaps   ;D )

Looks like if Scotland does leave, the Shetland Islands have different ideas of their own.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/17/shetland-may-reconsider-place-scotland-yes-vote-alistair-carmichael

They may want independence from Scotland - and they'll take a huge percentage of the oil with them.

"A petition of more than 1,000 signatures raised by islanders from Shetland, Orkney and the Western Isles calling for a separate referendum on whether they could themselves become independent was rejected last month by the Scottish government, which said it had promised new powers to the three island groups"

Suddenly Salmond is not so keen on devolution...

Ramblarider - we remain divided on the interpteratio n of the relevant statute. May was not "stating facts" at all.

Hogs - slainte!

Quote from: ramblarider on September 18, 2014, 04:28:24 AM
Looks like if Scotland does leave, the Shetland Islands have different ideas of their own.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/17/shetland-may-reconsider-place-scotland-yes-vote-alistair-carmichael

They may want independence from Scotland - and they'll take a huge percentage of the oil with them.

"A petition of more than 1,000 signatures raised by islanders from Shetland, Orkney and the Western Isles calling for a separate referendum on whether they could themselves become independent was rejected last month by the Scottish government, which said it had promised new powers to the three island groups"

Suddenly Salmond is not so keen on devolution...

And the reason this has not been highlighted during the debate by the No side and the MSM, is because it is bullshit and a silly argument. Salmond is not so keen on devolution, :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: on planet RR maybe. Well we will all know tomorrow anyway, so the best of luck to all the Sottish people wanting what is best for the future of their country and children.   http://www.shetnews.co.uk/features/scottish-independence-debate/9293-shetland-news-says-yes-to-independence

Quote from: NormanM on September 18, 2014, 07:08:22 AM
Ramblarider - we remain divided on the interpteratio n of the relevant statute. May was not "stating facts" at all.

1. She was absolutely correct, factually, when she stated that an independent Scotland would no longer be part of the UK.

2. This was in answer to the suggestion that "of course Scottish Citizens would be able to retain a UK passport".

Unfortunately, the statutes you keep referring to simply would not apply. They only apply to UK Citizens, which those born in Scotland would cease to be - unless they could manage to arrange dual nationality for themselves on some basis or another. You could look at this from another angle. Why would the UK give all Scottish citizens UK passports and nationality? Will Scotland give all English, Welsh and NI citizens Scottish passports and nationality in return? Or are you expecting a one-way street on that? If so, I think you will be disappointed.

It's all irrelevant anyway as it's going to be a "No" vote - the majority of Scots aren't so daft as to vote "Yes".  Of course, I might be eating my words tomorrow morning!

One would hope so.

Sadly, I think this all shows two things.

1. Politicians might expect people to vote in a referendum (Scotland, EU) on a rational basis, having weighed all the evidence carefully. However, they actually vote without even knowing or understanding the facts and implications, and on an emotive basis. I find that quite scary, because even those of us who don't get a vote can find our lives changed by the outcome. Not good at all.

2. Nationalism is not a good thing. It is far too easy to manipulate "the masses" with nationalism (and religion). You see some of this in the Scottish situation, with attacks and abuse being hurled at those of a different view.... and a lot of racist, anti-English feeling coming to the surface. Very primitive... and "charismatic" politicians have always been very good at using this kind of thing. It also (invariably) generates an equal and opposite reaction - so you are now hearing anti-Scottish rumblings from "British Nationalists"..... not good either. It is that kind of thing that leads to wars - civil or otherwise.

Think the "may" bit was seen as "might" not "that awful woman"  ??? could be wrong though ???
Mornin all :tiphat:

Quote from: byrney on September 18, 2014, 08:19:12 AM
It's all irrelevant anyway as it's going to be a "No" vote - the majority of Scots aren't so daft as to vote "Yes".  Of course, I might be eating my words tomorrow morning!

ditto on that bryns ,history could be made today,then we will be in for years of political & financel & legal wranglings at great expence...... again to the tax payers on both sides of the new electronic wall.

morning citizens... :tiphat:

Not sure of the reasons behind this, but it amazes me that:
Scottish people born and bred, but living outside the country can't vote.
But
Any over nationality living in Scotland can. (Are their any restrictions on these, eg. length of time in Scotland, do they pay tax, N.I. number, even a job ??
Very confused over the whole thing, will it really affect the ordinary people of Scotland ??

That's the kind of democracy in store for the Scotts. Makes me laugh when Salmond says, "Scotland belongs to you, vote yes to run your own Scotland"
The Scottish people won't be "running" Scotland, only Scottish politicians, same as everywhere else :tiphat:

Hogs I thought I recognised this:
Wee, sleekit, cow'rin, tim'rous beastie,
O, what a panic's in thy breastie!
Thou need na start awa sae hasty
Wi bickering brattle!
I wad be laith to rin an' chase thee,
Wi' murdering pattle.

I'm truly sorry man's dominion
Has broken Nature's social union,
An' justifies that ill opinion
Which makes thee startle
At me, thy poor, earth born companion
An' fellow mortal!

I doubt na, whyles, but thou may thieve;
What then? poor beastie, thou maun live!
A daimen icker in a thrave
'S a sma' request;
I'll get a blessin wi' the lave,
An' never miss't.

Thy wee-bit housie, too, in ruin!
It's silly wa's the win's are strewin!
An' naething, now, to big a new ane,
O' foggage green!
An' bleak December's win's ensuin,
Baith snell an' keen!

Thou saw the fields laid bare an' waste,
An' weary winter comin fast,
An' cozie here, beneath the blast,
Thou thought to dwell,
Till crash! the cruel coulter past
Out thro' thy cell.

That wee bit heap o' leaves an' stibble,
Has cost thee monie a weary nibble!
Now thou's turned out, for a' thy trouble,
But house or hald,
To thole the winter's sleety dribble,
An' cranreuch cauld.

But Mousie, thou art no thy lane,
In proving foresight may be vain:
The best-laid schemes o' mice an' men
Gang aft agley,
An' lea'e us nought but grief an' pain,
For promis'd joy!

Still thou are blest, compared wi' me!
The present only toucheth thee:
But och! I backward cast my e'e,
On prospects drear!
An' forward, tho' I canna see,
I guess an' fear!

I was in hospital yesterday and there was a man shouting this out. I thought he was mad until I realised it was the "serious Burns unit". :lol: :lol:

Looks like common sense has prevailed....

They're staying.

Thank goodness for that. I have just seen the result.

Excellent news - especially Cameron's commitment to allowing the Scots, Welsh and Irish to handle more of their own affairs and let their Politicians make decisions on their part of the Union.

Even better news though, his commitment to ensure that English Politicians make decisions on English issues.  I wonder what Mr Milliband feels about that when he realises the full impications?  :whistle:

Let's hope that the "Celebrity "Yes" Tweeters" go back in their little boxes again after their fifteen seconds of fame on the Political front - looking forward to Murray's welcome at Wimbledon next year!

Anyone that thinks it's all going to go away is mistaken. There are so many problems in the pipeline, now that all those promises have to be kept, plus the voting age issue, I don't think that one will be going away :crazy: The Tories will do their best to dumb it all down now and concentrate on keeping power, will Camo be booted out after his "victory" ??? The other thing is, will the Scotts go for it again? yes, probably :tiphat:
I hope the Labour party get wise and grab the opportunity to put the UK back on it's feet, together.
Well done Scotland :tiphat:     

Hopefully they will now  fully intergrate and speek  English   ;D

Morning Sasanaks   ;)

Quote from: Tetley on September 19, 2014, 09:55:42 AM
Hopefully they will now  fully intergrate and speek  English   ;D

Morning Sasanaks   ;)

That is the best thing I have read so far today!  :rofl:

Tetley - as they say in Inverness, "You hauderhim an' Ah'll heiderhim"