WOW - this guy has it spot on!
http://www.prageruniversity.com/Political-Science/Middle-East-Problem.html#.U2FwnCY76dg.email
Well picked up Melee, what's more what he says is true.
Absolutely true sallyb
So so true !! How very concise an explanation this is. It has always bothered me that the rest of the world describes some of the state as occupied, but like the Sinai the only 'occupied' areas were taken whilst the state was defending itself during wars, wars that were in fact Israel defending itself from the Arab neighbours.
A rather simplistic, typically American, view that doesn't stand up to academic rigour. He's completely, possibly conveniently, overlooked the issue of Jerusalem, which land it lays in, and how sacred it is to three of the worlds major religions.
I personally respect Israels' right to exist and deplore the Muslim/Hamas assault on a whole population since the British left in 1948.
I would also recommend a visit to the Sinai if you have not been, it is little more than desert and three oil fields. There is a fantastic, almost complete, Israeli base that was abandoned very hastily, on northern Sinai. It gives you a good taste of what the conflict must have been like on both sides.
Here is a brief and factual history of the conflict:
The seed of this conflict was planted in 1882 when the Zionist movement started with a group of secular (non-religious) European Jews to establish a homeland for the Jews in Palestine. Up to the 1920's, Jews lived in peace with Muslims and Christians in Palestine for about 1300 years (except when the European Crusaders killed all the Jews and Muslims in Jerusalem 900 years ago). Most of the Jews who lived in Palestine till then were Arabs.
When Britain occupied Palestine during World War 1, it gave a declaration (Balfour Declaration 1917) to the Zionist Federation that Britain will facilitate establishing a national home for the Jews in Palestine. There was one big problem however: the land already was populated by native Arabs (Mostly Muslim, but with significant Christian 7% and Jewish minorities 9%).
Britain opened the door to Jewish immigration from Europe, which increased in the 1930's and 1940's because of Nazism and the Holocaust. In 1948 the Jews made up 33% of the population of Palestine, but owned only 7% of the land. The UN voted (Res. 181) to split Palestine 55% for the Jews and 45% for the Palestinians to establish a Jewish and Arab States in Palestine, and to make Jerusalem an international area. War broke out between the Arabs and Jews in 1948 and the Jews occupied 80% of Palestine and established Israel on it. In the process Israel ethnically cleansed (forcibly removed) 80% of the Palestinians from the land they occupied and destroyed and depopulated more than 400 Palestinian villages, massacred thousands of Palestinians and made 0.75 million Palestinians refugees.
The UN voted in 1948 (Security Council Resolutions 93 and General Assembly Res. 194) to tell Israel to allow the Palestinian refugees to return to their homes, but until today Israel never complied. In 1967 Israel militarily occupied the remainder of Palestine (The West Bank and the Gaza Strip). The Security Council again voted in 1967 and 1973 that Israel return to the 1967 borders and allow the refugees to return, but Israel never complied (Security Council Res. 237, 242, 338).
This gives you a brief history of the roots of the problem. The Palestinians now negotiate to get only the lands occupied in 1967 back to establish their own state on it, and for Israel to allow the deposed people in 1948 and 1967 to return to their original homes.
Israel is only accepting to return only parts of the lands occupied in 1967. The land they accept to return has no borders with the outside world (making it an effective jail guarded by the Israelis). They also refuse to allow the refugees to return. They also have built many illegal settlements in the West Bank and planted nearly 500,000 Israeli extremists in them. Israel has taken control of nearly 5/6 of the water resources in the West Bank, and has built an apartheid wall that dwarfs the Berlin wall around and through Palestinian cities and villages in the West Bank
They also refuse to return East Jerusalem, which is part of the West Bank, to the Palestinians.
Again this is a very brief background. It in no way describes the daily suffering, abuse, humiliation, terror and deprivation of basic human rights the Israelis inflict on the Palestinians.
Thank goodness for google
"Thank goodness for Google" How true 'keyser soze' I've found web sites listed on Google that prove that the holocaust never happened and the North pole is in Pakistan. It's so good that we can find the Factual stuff on line isn't it!
If we dig around we can find all sorts of facts and figures to suit our arguments. I for one, prefer a simple answer to a simple question. I can believe and support either side in any conflict, but at the end of the day, I have to decide for myself which side I see as the aggressor. The Palestinian people are generally peace loving people that just want the same as everyone else. The problems start when groups like Hamas take the lead and bring death and destruction upon the people it says it represents. Hamas, IS, call them what you want, they are one and the same. We have to look at the problem as it is, not how it was, we can't go back in time. All of this middle east problem is not about Israel, it's all about control. Israel just want to be left in peace, but I don't suppose it ever will be, that's why they have such a tough stance. Given the choice, I would back Israel, because I have never, ever, been threatened by a Jew. :tiphat:
The Palestinian Arabs owned an even smaller percentage of property/land than the Jews at that time and they were invited to provide proof of ownership.
There is also a sizeable Arab population living in modern Israel today, side by side the Jews and of course the other minority faiths
As to religious claims over Jerusalem ...the muslims have Mecca don't they?
Considering the fact that the Islamic faith only came about centuries after both Judaism and Christianity, I think they should wind their neck in as far as Israel and any holy cities within that land is concerned
Quote from: JohnJones on August 31, 2014, 13:20:57 PM
A rather simplistic, typically American, view that doesn't stand up to academic rigour. He's completely, possibly conveniently, overlooked the issue of Jerusalem, which land it lays in, and how sacred it is to three of the worlds major religions.
I personally respect Israels' right to exist and deplore the Muslim/Hamas assault on a whole population since the British left in 1948.
I would also recommend a visit to the Sinai if you have not been, it is little more than desert and three oil fields. There is a fantastic, almost complete, Israeli base that was abandoned very hastily, on northern Sinai. It gives you a good taste of what the conflict must have been like on both sides.
Absolutely correct.
I have worked in the North Sinai. I have also seen - first hand - not via the internet or the "Daily Mail" - precisely what goes on there. Similar situation in the West Bank.
Yes, there are attacks by Palestinian factions on Israel. They sometimes do very bad, and silly things....
However... THEIR lands (which are acknowledged to be such by UN), are built on by Israeli so-called "settlements". Their olive groves are destroyed. They are routinely abused and murdered by Israeli religious fanatics (the same ones who killed their own prime minister a few years ago), nothing is done about this. No justice. Nothing. They are discriminated against, exploited, their houses are destroyed and even Israeli Arabs are treated like 4th class citizens. Israel is a deeply racist, bigoted society. Certainty no model for decency and freedom.
You need to
GO THERE to see this. Don't rely on the media...
If you have lived in that region (although I would imagine that living in Sinai is very different from living in Israel itself) then you will know that families of Palestinian Arabs who have died in suicide bombings are given financial rewards by the government. The dead "heros" also frequently had streets named after them under Arafat's rule. I don't know if this charming custom has continued since his death.
I'm not aware of Israeli religious fanatics going out and murdering Palestinians?
You get the odd Zionist nutcase, but compared to the number of muslim nutters and suicide bombers?
You will also be aware that Palestinian Arabs rejected the UN's offer of a Palestinian State, which was made at the same time as when Israel was founded.
They only started to call themselves Palestinians after the war in '67 and in fact took the name from the British who had named it Palestine when they took over from the Ottoman Empire. Both Jews and Arabs were Palestinians then!
Palestinian comes from "Philistine" a race who were around centuries before Islam came into being. Many muslim arabs appear confused as to where their beloved "roots" actually originate from - I know I am :lol:
Been there done it and got the teeshirt. How it all came about is history, it's how it is today. None of them have been saints in the past, as you will see in the history of the middle east, all down to our ancestors, It's what happens now that counts. If we all want to harp on about what happened in the past, we won't get anywhere. It's entirely down to a political solution now, and I can't see that happening soon. The trouble with the Arab nations is that they don't do politics, just the iron fist and knife in the back, it's in em forever, it's what they do, very bad and silly things, it's what they're good at. :tiphat:
I thought racism was not allowed on this forum.
Quote from: Roger on August 31, 2014, 16:38:14 PM
I thought racism was not allowed on this forum.
;D Thought that phrase would soon come up. I think it's only fair that Israel should be included in the blame game discussion, surely that can't be seen as being racist? :tiphat:
The trouble with the Arab nations is that they don't do politics, just the iron fist and knife in the back, it's in em forever, it's what they do, very bad and silly things, it's what they're good at.
I do not see how you can read this and not see it as a racist comment about Arabs as a race.
It's just telling it how it is Roger. They are different to us, it's what they do to each other. You must be aware of what's happening in Egypt these days, what they are doing to each other. They rule with an iron fist and God help you if you don't toe the line. Egypt is considered the best middle east country, some even say it's a democracy ???
It would perhaps be better if I were to say they are nice people and treat all people, including their own, in a nice, fair manner. You may be more comfortable with that kind of post, but would it be the truth? I couldn't even say that about our own people :tiphat:
webe - I agree with you and it is NOT a racist remark - BUT - say it as you see it and you are a racist - I have one real wish and that is this
for all the do gooders and pc whallas to be incarcerated on an island with Hamas, the arabs and islam fanatics - see how quick they change their minds :tiphat:
Why do we think everyone wants democracy, for some people it just doesn't work, but authoritative rule works fine and has done for centuries
MELEE, definitely racist, just read your own posts, and jokes. Webe, probably more prejudiced than racist, but close.
Quote from: macc on August 31, 2014, 21:46:02 PM
MELEE, definitely racist, just read your own posts, and jokes. Webe, probably more prejudiced than racist, but close.
Well that's your opinion.
I certainly don't see racism in any of the posts on these threads. I see frustration and people who are relaying their own experiences.
Have to agree with Lisa. Comments on this thread are not so much racist but more a case of folks voicing their frustration and anger at a group of religious extremists who happily use violence to further their cause.
One consistent thing with racists, at least most of them, is that they deny they are racist. There are some 'honourable' exceptions, of course.... the Klan and such-like... who at least are not in denial. They are what they are and don't pretend otherwise. I have more respect for them than I do for the mealy-mouthed types who spout racist hate nonsense one moment and deny what they said was even remotely racist in the next!
Take this on board. If more than one person thinks what you say is racist, it very likely is. Think about it.
Just read some of the comments here. I will bet 99% of it from people who have barely, if ever, even set foot in the countries they are ranting about. That's pure ignorance.
It is really easy to be an ignorant racist. You just selectively pick some bits of history that does not reflect well (never mind the context), find some supposed negative 'character trait' associated with a particular people and ascribe it to all of them, and add a steam of (not funny) racist jokes just to add some flavour. Going by this forum, some of you score 10 out of 10 on this subject.
http://www.arboleas.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=91471.0
Quote from: LisaD on August 31, 2014, 22:09:32 PM
Quote from: macc on August 31, 2014, 21:46:02 PM
MELEE, definitely racist, just read your own posts, and jokes. Webe, probably more prejudiced than racist, but close.
Well that's your opinion.
I certainly don't see racism in any of the posts on these threads. I see frustration and people who are relaying their own experiences.
Thanks LisaD but macc and several others on here only see racism in any comments I make. Their problem not mine because I will continue
to voice my opinion on the decline of my country which I love dearly.
Ramblaraider,
you make a valid point about people never having set foot in the area which we are "ranting " about. But I believe that those people who live in parts of the UK with large Muslim populations have actual experience of living amongst people with a different culture and a different religion to their own. IMHO that gives them the right to form an opinion, because it is based on their personal experience. I lived for some time in the London Borough of Tower Hamlets. There are high density areas here of Muslims, and there are small pockets where the population is 97% Muslim/Asian. So I feel I am qualified to pass comments, based on my personal experiences. I can relate a dozen incidents where a local Muslim leader made inflammatory public statements, which had they been made by a Christian or Jew, would have resulted in prosecution. As in the recent Rotherham scandal involving the abuse of underage children by mainly Asian men, no action was taken by the police or local authorities because they were frightened of being accused of racism etc. Some people may call me a racist for my views. To be honest, I don´t really care. If some of the " racists" had spoken out against the Rotherham child abuse, 1400 young people would not have suffered appalling sexual abuse.
Quote from: zilnor on September 01, 2014, 12:29:32 PM
Ramblaraider,
you make a valid point about people never having set foot in the area which we are "ranting " about. But I believe that those people who live in parts of the UK with large Muslim populations have actual experience of living amongst people with a different culture and a different religion to their own. IMHO that gives them the right to form an opinion, because it is based on their personal experience. I lived for some time in the London Borough of Tower Hamlets. There are high density areas here of Muslims, and there are small pockets where the population is 97% Muslim/Asian. So I feel I am qualified to pass comments, based on my personal experiences. I can relate a dozen incidents where a local Muslim leader made inflammatory public statements, which had they been made by a Christian or Jew, would have resulted in prosecution. As in the recent Rotherham scandal involving the abuse of underage children by mainly Asian men, no action was taken by the police or local authorities because they were frightened of being accused of racism etc. Some people may call me a racist for my views. To be honest, I don´t really care. If some of the " racists" had spoken out against the Rotherham child abuse, 1400 young people would not have suffered appalling sexual abuse.
:clap: :clap: :clap:
Quote from: zilnor on September 01, 2014, 12:29:32 PM
o be honest, I don´t really care. If some of the " racists" had spoken out against the Rotherham child abuse, 1400 young people would not have suffered appalling sexual abuse.
It is not, and never has been "racist" to go after criminals, whoever and whatever they are. Unfortunately "reverse racism" is just as corrosive as the straightforward kind, and it does appear that fear of being accused of racism was a factor in allowing this to continue. Those who did that should be sacked. It is inexcusable. There was more to it than some twisted view of "racism", however. The fact that many of the victims were looked upon as "troublemakers" played a role too. The police were biased against them from the get-go, and were disinclined to give them a fair hearing. The police bear a huge responsibility for allowing that to continue (as they did with Cyril Smith, incidentally).
Quote from: MELEE on September 01, 2014, 12:52:22 PM
Quote from: zilnor on September 01, 2014, 12:29:32 PMAs in the recent Rotherham scandal involving the abuse of underage children by mainly Asian men, no action was taken by the police or local authorities because they were frightened of being accused of racism etc. Some people may call me a racist for my views. To be honest, I don´t really care. If some of the " racists" had spoken out against the Rotherham child abuse, 1400 young people would not have suffered appalling sexual abuse.
:clap: :clap: :clap:
I suppose this all makes perfect sense to everybody, this Rotherham crap, but i can,t figure it out. They knew it was going on for 16 years, how long do the British police and social services need to help a child. All of a sudden paedophilia is a cultural issue, has this always been the case or have i missed something. The Asian community as a whole are not responsible for what happened in Rotherham, it was the British care system, and the British police who totally failed these 1400 children, and every other reported and ignored case, that just happens to be a Fact. Whenever a crime is committed, and reported the police should do their job, as should social services, and be held accountable for failing to do so. The Westminster paedophile ring, Jimmy Savile, Judges, Peers, and Mp,s prominent public figures who abused children for decades and it is more than likely still going on, and i have never heard they media say, this is indicative of a problem within the British White culture, "because it is" and white community leaders need to take responsibility, yeah, some hope. These were apparently young English girls that the Police and social services turned their backs on, but it is the right time to ignore the truth, and put the blame on the community of Rotherham. Absolutely fantastic excuse by the public, police and social services, We were frightened of being accused of racism etc, so we only let it go on for 16 years, wake up people.
Thanks LisaD but macc and several others on here only see racism in any comments I make. Their problem not mine because I will continue
to voice my opinion on the decline of my country which I love dearly.
[/quote]
Ok Melee,
I totally agree with supporting your country. :clap:
What I want to know apart from the Arboleas Forum, what are you doing to promote change in the UK?
The only real criminals, are those that committed the crimes, the police and council may be guilty of neglect, but they're not the perverts and sex offenders. Maybe the PC wallahs have a part in it all :whistle:
Quote from: ramblarider on August 31, 2014, 15:25:04 PM
Quote from: JohnJones on August 31, 2014, 13:20:57 PM
A rather simplistic, typically American, view that doesn't stand up to academic rigour. He's completely, possibly conveniently, overlooked the issue of Jerusalem, which land it lays in, and how sacred it is to three of the worlds major religions.
I personally respect Israels' right to exist and deplore the Muslim/Hamas assault on a whole population since the British left in 1948.
I would also recommend a visit to the Sinai if you have not been, it is little more than desert and three oil fields. There is a fantastic, almost complete, Israeli base that was abandoned very hastily, on northern Sinai. It gives you a good taste of what the conflict must have been like on both sides.
Absolutely correct.
I have worked in the North Sinai. I have also seen - first hand - not via the internet or the "Daily Mail" - precisely what goes on there. Similar situation in the West Bank.
Yes, there are attacks by Palestinian factions on Israel. They sometimes do very bad, and silly things....
However... THEIR lands (which are acknowledged to be such by UN), are built on by Israeli so-called "settlements". Their olive groves are destroyed. They are routinely abused and murdered by Israeli religious fanatics (the same ones who killed their own prime minister a few years ago), nothing is done about this. No justice. Nothing. They are discriminated against, exploited, their houses are destroyed and even Israeli Arabs are treated like 4th class citizens. Israel is a deeply racist, bigoted society. Certainty no model for decency and freedom.
You need to GO THERE to see this. Don't rely on the media...
I note that the Israelis are intending to occupy another 990 acres of Palestinian land, no wonder the Palestinians dislike (understatement) the Israelis. The US has created such a power imbalance in the area there is no stopping the ethic cleansing now.
Quote from: doreen1 on September 01, 2014, 16:44:04 PM
Thanks LisaD but macc and several others on here only see racism in any comments I make. Their problem not mine because I will continue
to voice my opinion on the decline of my country which I love dearly.
Ok Melee,
I totally agree with supporting your country. :clap:
What I want to know apart from the Arboleas Forum, what are you doing to promote change in the UK?
[/quote]
Didn't think it would be long before YOU put your 2penorth in, what does surprise me is your interest in the UK as in your own word . you'd boil your head in acid before you joined our lot'
goodnight Doreen :tiphat:
Quote from: MELEE on September 01, 2014, 22:11:13 PM
Quote from: doreen1 on September 01, 2014, 16:44:04 PM
Thanks LisaD but macc and several others on here only see racism in any comments I make. Their problem not mine because I will continue
to voice my opinion on the decline of my country which I love dearly.
Ok Melee,
I totally agree with supporting your country. :clap:
What I want to know apart from the Arboleas Forum, what are you doing to promote change in the UK?
Didn't think it would be long before YOU put your 2penorth in, what does surprise me is your interest in the UK as in your own word . you'd boil your head in acid before you joined our lot'
goodnight Doreen :tiphat:
[/quote]
That's exactly what I thought you were doing. Thanks for taking the time to reply. :wave
Quote from: doreen1 on September 02, 2014, 07:14:02 AM
Quote from: MELEE on September 01, 2014, 22:11:13 PM
Quote from: doreen1 on September 01, 2014, 16:44:04 PM
Thanks LisaD but macc and several others on here only see racism in any comments I make. Their problem not mine because I will continue
to voice my opinion on the decline of my country which I love dearly.
Ok Melee,
I totally agree with supporting your country. :clap:
What I want to know apart from the Arboleas Forum, what are you doing to promote change in the UK?
Didn't think it would be long before YOU put your 2penorth in, what does surprise me is your interest in the UK as in your own word . you'd boil your head in acid before you joined our lot'
goodnight Doreen :tiphat:
That's exactly what I thought you were doing. Thanks for taking the time to reply. :wave
[/quote]
Get a life - and keep out of mine :tiphat:
Please, can we stop this bickering. It does yourselves nor the forum any good.
The trouble with the written word on forums is that it can be misinterpreted. Therefore when writing something that may be controversial it is imperative that people write it first then read it through and think as if they were someone else reading it. Edit it as necessary.
Get a life - and keep out of mine :tiphat:
[/quote] not wishing to be controversial or upset people this is no a fair comment as a resident of uk surely you are coming into our life now wait for the abuse
Quote from: webejamin on September 01, 2014, 17:35:52 PM
The only real criminals, are those that committed the crimes, the police and council may be guilty of neglect, but they're not the perverts and sex offenders. Maybe the PC wallahs have a part in it all :whistle:
Not true Webe. Those who looked the other way on Saville are complicit. As are the Politicians, Managers and Police in Rotherham. They looked the other way. No better than the perpertrators themselves and consequently complicit.
Get a life - and keep out of mine :tiphat:
[/quote] not wishing to be controversial or upset people this is no a fair comment as a resident of uk surely you are coming into our life now wait for the abuse
Ditto Brucie1 :clap:
Liz
Quote from: zilnor on September 01, 2014, 12:29:32 PM
Ramblaraider,
you make a valid point about people never having set foot in the area which we are "ranting " about. But I believe that those people who live in parts of the UK with large Muslim populations have actual experience of living amongst people with a different culture and a different religion to their own. IMHO that gives them the right to form an opinion, because it is based on their personal experience. I lived for some time in the London Borough of Tower Hamlets. There are high density areas here of Muslims, and there are small pockets where the population is 97% Muslim/Asian. So I feel I am qualified to pass comments, based on my personal experiences. I can relate a dozen incidents where a local Muslim leader made inflammatory public statements, which had they been made by a Christian or Jew, would have resulted in prosecution. As in the recent Rotherham scandal involving the abuse of underage children by mainly Asian men, no action was taken by the police or local authorities because they were frightened of being accused of racism etc. Some people may call me a racist for my views. To be honest, I don´t really care. If some of the " racists" had spoken out against the Rotherham child abuse, 1400 young people would not have suffered appalling sexual abuse.
[/quote :
:clap:
Well I really have lived in Israel as well as West London and my previous posts make my position clear as to who is the guilty party here.
Quote from: JohnJones on September 02, 2014, 11:58:04 AM
Quote from: webejamin on September 01, 2014, 17:35:52 PM
The only real criminals, are those that committed the crimes, the police and council may be guilty of neglect, but they're not the perverts and sex offenders. Maybe the PC wallahs have a part in it all :whistle:
Not true Webe. Those who looked the other way on Saville are complicit. As are the Politicians, Managers and Police in Rotherham. They looked the other way. No better than the perpertrators themselves and consequently complicit.
Like I said, they are not the perverts and sex offenders, although they may be guilty of neglect. Looking the other way is something different :tiphat:
No it's not. If you have awareness of a child being abused, we are all duty bound to report. Looking the other way allows the pperp to continue, as did Saville. Looking the other way is just as bad. Doing nothing about it is worse. :tiphat:
Quote from: JohnJones on September 06, 2014, 22:06:53 PM
No it's not. If you have awareness of a child being abused, we are all duty bound to report. Looking the other way allows the pperp to continue, as did Saville. Looking the other way is just as bad. Doing nothing about it is worse. :tiphat:
To be honest, I think you would have a job, charging and convicting anyone of a sex offence, that was reported to them by another person. It seems that the social workers on the ground were ignored by their bosses or supervisors. Looking the other way is neglect of duty yes, but not a sex crime. It may be morally wrong, but unless the supervisors were actually "in" on the sexual abuse, then neglect is their crime, as with anyone else involved, like politicians, or lawyers. Sounds a bit pedantic I know, but it would get worse in court.
Maybe someone else could have an idea on the subject? :tiphat:
Strangely enough, there have been several instances of innocent people being decapitated in the UK. According to reports, the people arrested for the crimes have been Muslim converts. I think the killers are probably mentally ill, but could there be a connection with reports in the news, about the beheadings by IS and previous incidents, to mentally ill people, converting to Islam, thinking that it's the way to do things?
I know it's a bit far fetched, but maybe it could happen? ???
seem to me these sort of thing happening years ago then it was the japs doing
it and look what happened to them when you get a race or religion that think it is better than the rest and not equal then it as be put down or brought down to earth
That,s just so wrong Webe to defend or make excuses for people who would not try to defend or help children who are being abused, and these were people with the power to do what was needed to stop the abuse. People who do nothing in the face of child abuse, are just not good people whatever way you look at them. You say looking the other way is neglect of duty, that may be an excuse for a one off incident, but not for this volume of abuse over a 16 year period. The people who neglected these reports are just as guilty.
OK macc So you think they should be charged with sex crimes along with the rapists? good luck with that one ??? I'm not defending anyone, nor making excuses for there neglect, just getting things in their right perspective, just like the DPP would (unless of course, he was in it as well) :whistle:
Dear dear getting a bit heated we are, dose not matter politicians will do exactly what they want to even if you vote them, so calm down.
??? ;D ;D ;D it's worse it's getting ;D