Arboleas politics

[Tetley]

Good Morning citizens  

[Roger]

The previous Mayor certainly did a lot of works in the town.

However the most frequent complaint from people is that the town was a permanent building site.
So much work started and more started before the first project was finished.

And I invite people to take a drive to the entrance to Los Higuerales.
The huge white elephant, complete with mock Roman pillar is an example of wasted public money.

[Roger]

In answer to the recent question..
The urbanization tax as a result of the parcelisation projects is a debt on the land, and therefore the owner of the land.
If you have an afo then you are the land owner.
If you wait for the parcelisation project it could be that the builder is the land owner. However in practice the debt will go on the land which will then be the house owner.

The debt is on the land, irresponsible who was the promoter.

[Malcolm]

70% of how much. People scream and shout for buses in the country villages and if they are provided rarely use them. With all the villages we have you want more than one bus and then two drivers for each bus to be there when it's wanted. Maintenance, depreciation etc. etc. Good luck, you'll need it

[JuanC]

Almost 70 thousand euros for a minibus and good luck to you, you will probably need it more than us.

70% of how much. People scream and shout for buses in the country villages and if they are provided rarely use them. With all the villages we have you want more than one bus and then two drivers for each bus to be there when it's wanted. Maintenance, depreciation etc. etc. Good luck, you'll need it

[Malcolm]

70% of how much. People scream and shout for buses in the country villages and if they are provided rarely use them. With all the villages we have you want more than one bus and then two drivers for each bus to be there when it's wanted. Maintenance, depreciation etc. etc. Good luck, you'll need it

[JuanC]

Neighbor, a City Council is not a company that is dedicated to making money, public services are expensive and a bus that is subsidized at approximately 70% is a great opportunity to solve problems for neighbors who have mobility problems. Street lighting costs more than bus service and is another public service. Councilors who offer not to work to solve the problems cost more.

I hope you have done your sums because I think that with my experience of the bus industry you have more chance of day trips to the moon than making that pay.

[Malcolm]

I hope you have done your sums because I think that with my experience of the bus industry you have more chance of day trips to the moon than making that pay.

[JuanC]

The new PP administration has officially declared that they will not be charging the builders the urbanization costs of the innovation 14 houses, but will be requiring the residents to pay.

This is in direct contradiction to the election promise.
It seems that they are intent to lose the next election.

Good evening everyone and with this administration, as Roger says, good luck!

[JuanC]

From the PSOE we leave this debate against a wall. Anyone who needs help we are here. For the rest, we are not responsible for this year of government, let's say that if in 2019/23 we carried out 86 works, counting as one C/Zoraida (€350,000), another the access to Los Carrascos (€130,000) and another the Los Llanos Rotunda (€180,000), we only ask that they match us (they should already have 20 works) and those who have to account for their management in this forum are now others. We settled for them doing what we requested and they granted us. For example, now it is the bike lane in the neighborhoods of the stream with its pedestrian walkways on the Los Carrascos/Los Garcías and El Chopo/Los Requenas bridges. In addition to the granting of an electric bus that will improve the lives of our neighbors to go to the doctor or go shopping with regular departures. We got that subsidy before we left, we can show it and it must be done now. It will start soon, we will only ensure that it is done correctly and soon we will enjoy that necessary municipal transportation such as the bus, which will also be electric. Congratulations and good afternoon.

[Tetley]

and of coarse Roger ,certainly to my amazement post brexit ,

we still have wealthy Brits coming over to Arboleas in numbers entitled to a vote after 3 years of full residency

 and the local housing market is busy

for anything 99 to 199 grand ie if house papers are right and the price is right ,its selling 

and down the coast the market is very very busy for house buying and selling .

[DLMcN]

Roger - What would actually happen if a house-owner was unable [or refused] to pay in an area where Innovation 14 was being processed?

Does the Town Hall [or some other authority?] then have the power to impose a debt or a sanction against that particular property? If so, would it carry that 'liability' straightaway, or only after Innovation 14 had been fully completed there?

Did anything like that take place in Las Requeñas, do you know?

[Roger]

I agree with some of what Tetley says.
It is certainly true that some people are content without any legal paperwork, mainly, as has been said, they will struggle to find around 5k to get the ownership with an AFO, when you include legal fees and registration tax.

But the issue of embargos is not a problem for people who use an AFO.
This is because when they segregate their plot the embargo does not follow them but stays on the remainder of the finca, provide there is some land remaining in the finca (which of course would include the land of people who have not segregated with an AFO!).

As for the legalisation process, from what people tell me they want the whole think dropped.
They have their escritura and that is sufficient.
They don't want any more hassle and uncertainty.

How is the new administration doing so far?
In my opinion quite well.

They are listening to the people about the urbanization projects.

They sorted out the Los Requenas project, despite misinformation and years of delay from their predecessors.
The residents now have to wait on the Land Registry, which is a law unto itself.

They have cleaned up much of the unkempt land.

There has been a marked increase in cultural and recreational activity.

It is refreshing to see that Arboleas is working with its neighbours in Zurgena because together is always better.


The result of the next election will be determined by the British vote.
I was involved a year ago to get a change.
It was amazing how strong that feeling was amongst the British.
But this only had a marginal effect on election day because only around one third of people at meetings had re registered to vote, either out of ignorance that they had to do so, or because (as many said)
"we didn't register because we decided we were not going to vote again for the present lot and we didn't know there would be a viable alternative until it was too late."

And the PSOE opposition is determined to rehash old news.
My experience is that this is a total turn off for the British.
They hate muck spreading.

But the Mayor and his son (juancris) and palminspain clearly do not get that.


Interesting times.

[Tetley]

well i will give you my over view Roger after talking to people.

some Brits are quite happy as they are with little or no paperwork ,because they cannot afford the costs including the AFO  and cannot be doing with it all in there late 70,s and early 80,s

some are even pxssed off because they may now have to find infrastructure money and dont see why they should have to .....just because people want innovation 14...ie they were happy as they were.

a lot of people are un effected by any of it, and think the new council team are doing a great job with the events/fiestas  ect and the improvement  work around the village

i think what may happen ,in 3 years time is we may get 2 or 3 non spanish candidates putting them selfs forward, just one non PP/PSOE independent could hold the balance of power in the council chamber and we do have some very fluent educated people here capable of been a Councillor as we have had in the past with your good self,Mike and Danny and Rodney who gave it a go as well ,plus in other areas in the past ,we have had example Maura , who is very switched on ,so all in all it could be very interesting .

anyway the biggest problem as I  see it with my limited knowledge, is  the embargoes and land ownership  and this is a not a political matter its a Spanish State Administration Matter and it is the biggest hurdle that folks face thats effected by it , in my view along with the od re mortgaged land bank de fault ...../...repro.

[Roger]

The British pensioners who were sold illegal houses have been waiting 20 years for this to end so that they can get on with what remains of their lives, free of stress.

Instead they are now pawns in the political game.
Clearly the current opposition politicians have no compassion.
All they want to do is drag this whole farce out for many more years.

In 2017 they were told that their land is now Urban, but were then told that they would have to wait for further urbanization projects.

SIX YEARS have passed and they are still waiting.

Fortunately there was a lifeline, the AFO, which allowed them to get escrituras for their homes.
Most have done so.

But what do we now have.
The opposition councillors are saying that if they get elected in 3 years they will start the whole urbanization process all over again.
That will mean years and years of uncertainty, a cloud over their homes making it difficult to sell, and unknown costs to follow.

Clearly they don't care that all this is causing so much stress to the innocent home owners.

In 3 years time it looks like an interesting political battle for the 500 plus British votes which will decide the result.

[Tetley]

So Roger what conclusion have you reached with all the input given to you on this thread  to help you understand it all a bit more  . ?


"The new PP administration has officially declared that they will not be charging the builders the urbanization costs of the innovation 14 houses, but will be requiring the residents to pay.

This is in direct contradiction to the election promise.
It seems that they are intent to lose the next election."

[palminspain]

People don't care about who said what 20 years ago.

But remember a councilor from 37 years ago (before the ilegal houses problem) is important if he had a relation with Cristobal in that time. Curiosly, you has never remembered his relation with Angel García and the ilegal houses in Los Torres, especially in the campaign election.

To Remember the past is important when you see how the victims vote and give the power to the same corrupt people who created their ilegal house's problems. Nobody want live again that history.

[SanJuan]

Apologies for my ignorance but would the Cristobal Berbel mentioned be one of  the Directors of Promar/Promar Welcome Homes, or is that someone else entirely.

[JuanC]

Cristóbal Berbel was a councilor from 1983 to 1987 only and nothing more. A little far from the housing problem. Another member participated as a PP member in the elections. Can you say which member of the PP electoral lists is related to the sale of the rural land where the ARI houses in Los Torres are located and whether he was a councilor at the time of the sale?

Now I will explain something about urban planning so that you know a little more: The urbanization project is done after the subdivision.

Whenever you want we can discuss these matters, we will solve the problem if we return to the City Council on some occasion, we have always had a solution. The current government team should continue enjoying its parties while promising the neighbors not to do anything. There are 4 years to adapt the Arboleas urban plan to the LISTA (Andalusian Land Law approved by the PP). This law does not recognize unconsolidated Urban land, let's see how our super government team solves it, with another party perhaps? We are still waiting for them in the forum.

[Roger]

In Los Torres you didn't put in the street lights.
The residents did paid for from the escrow account.
I know because I was one of the co signatories who signed over the money to the company.

But you also know that there is a lot of unfinished infrastructure.
For example in Los Requenas.
Why didn't you complete this before signing off the parcelisation project?

[Roger]

Regarding the company who has an embargo.
This is Promar.
I have nothing to do with Promar.
But as far as I know there are 3 shareholders of the company.

Cristobal Berbel, who set up the company.
He had been deputy mayor under your father in an earlier PSOE administration.

The other shareholders are, to my understanding, Antonio the former local police officer, and Faustino who has never indicated any political involvement. He in theory runs the company.
In theory because there is little indication that anyone runs it!

So where is the PP link to Promar?

[JuanC]

That's a decision the residents have to make, not being dictated to by you.
They have to decide the pros and cons.

By the way the land IS URBAN under innovation 14.

Unconsolidated urban, a form that the new Andalusian land law doesnt recognize.

[JuanC]

Q2
How did you help?
Los Requenas is the only project and the only reason that the residents have not had to pay is that the land is still owned by the builder.
If people have an afo they own the land so they will have to pay.
Your father confirmed this at a meeting with me in 2018.

With all the developments that the city council did in the ARI areas, those costs had to be paid by the neighbors, as you say. By doing these jobs, the city council saved the neighbors that money.

C/Zoraida was the last street that was made to save the residents of the ARI of La Perla, a total of 300 thousand euros were saved for these neighbors, they can divide it among the houses that are part of the ARI of Perla and that way they will know the savings that each home had due to this last work.

In Los Torres they can make the bill with the lighting and the green area, almost 100 thousand euros between 30 houses. We save more than 3 thousand euros for each neighbor and so on, in all the neighborhoods.

See if the costs of the ARIs can be reduced when the City Council works and collaborates with the neighbors.

[Roger]

That's a decision the residents have to make, not being dictated to by you.
They have to decide the pros and cons.

By the way the land IS URBAN under innovation 14.

[Roger]

Q2
How did you help?
Los Requenas is the only project and the only reason that the residents have not had to pay is that the land is still owned by the builder.
If people have an afo they own the land so they will have to pay.
Your father confirmed this at a meeting with me in 2018.

[JuanC]

Q1
You obviously do not understand the law.
The legalisation tax is on the property.
That is clear from the parcelisation project for Los Requenas.
So we all know that the builder won't pay, and after 4 years under Spanish law they can't be given to tax bill.

The town hall can't pay itself.
So the debt is on the property.
Check that with any lawyer.

Review your notes, in Los Requenas the promoters have paid. Or go back to studying. Continue with the other questions.

[Roger]

Q1
You obviously do not understand the law.
The legalisation tax is on the property.
That is clear from the parcelisation project for Los Requenas.
So we all know that the builder won't pay, and after 4 years under Spanish law they can't be given to tax bill.

The town hall can't pay itself.
So the debt is on the property.
Check that with any lawyer.

[JuanC]

5 questions that can clarify all the neighbors' doubts:

- Why is the current government attacking the neighbors and not the developers?

- Why do you suppose that the costs that neighbors must pay in legalization are immutable? The city council can help like we did.

- A client who requested a job from me was surprised to have been tricked into obtaining an AFO by telling him that his land was classified as urban. He wanted to build a small storage room on his plot but, being an AFO, it was prohibited as it was a document that recognizes the illegality of a property. If I were in the ARI I would not have had problems in this regard. What solution does that neighbor have to build up to the 30% occupation of the plot that is allowed for houses with ARIs? I understand that anyone who wants to sell quickly gets an AFO, but answer that question if possible.

- Why does a CHIEF of the company that left embargoes in LOS TORRES, LOS CARRASCOS, EL RINCÓN, as you say, act as a MEMBER OF THE PP in the municipal elections and is a local militant of the PP party? He was one of the sponsors of the PP project. When they look for the promoter to pay, they can't find him, but if it is to 'help' in the electoral campaign, he is there. Can I clarify more, this person, who is a member of the PP of Arboleas, allegedly bought a rustic land in LOS TORRES from a relative of a member of the electoral list of the current PP to build illegal houses, do you know what houses they are? Yes, those of the ARI of Los Torres. Who explains why the promoter's party says that it cannot find the promoter?

- Why do members of the government team refuse to debate in this group?

[Roger]

The problem with the parcelisation projects is that the cost is only known after the project is complete.
So the residents are faced with a blank cheque.
It's also impossible to know how long the process will take
Los Requenas started in 2018 when the residents paid 600 euros as an initial payment. And they still don't know if or when it will be approved, especially after the previous Mayor wasted 18 months by submitting a project with serious errors.

I see no evidence from people who have sold with afos that they have had to accept a lower offer.
The housing market in Arboleas is far too complex to be able to make any conclusion on that.

So the residents would face years of uncertainty, difficult to sell while this is happening, not knowing what the final bill will be,
ALL FOR NOTHING.

[Roger]

Most people already have legal ownership papers using an afo.
And the houses are legal due to antiquity.

For those who haven't got afos they will be issued with the correct architect project.

What people object to is having to pay the taxes which should be charged to the builder.
And they object to being forced to pay for something they don't need, just because a politician says they have to.

That's why the PP at the carrascos and Los Torres meetings accepted that the residents should have the democratic decision.

Obviously you would not accept the democratic decision of the residents.
So that is now clear.
A clear political divide.

[JuanC]

I think people may have been disappointed by the lies they told in the electoral campaign where legalization papers were promised for all homes at 0 cost for the victims and, in the end, they have an invalid survey about whether they want an illegal house, 10 months after the elections. What does this city council work on in terms of urban planning? In short, this situation must be frustrating for the victims and, with politics, everything has solutions, staying still does not solve anything.

And as I say, just as Mike and Roger debated in this forum when they were councilors of the government team, I think that the current members of the government team can do it too or are they blocked from talking to their neighbors?

Thank you, JuanC, for your detailed reply.

You almost make it sound as if the residents' voting option was proposed and initiated ["out of the blue"] by the PP.... I am fairly sure that it was not.

Conversations which I had with Pepa and with Antonio Martinez, indicate that the PP/UCIN coalition was originally hoping and planning to continue working on Innovation 14.

However, at the Los Carrascos meeting, it seemed thst a fair number of residents were unhappy with the prospect of having to pay for something whose completion date was unknown... < That was when the PP realised that it would be better to listen before acting.

[As an 'outsider' on this issue, I'm quite happy to be corrected if any of this^ is wrong].

[Tetley]

the problem is David  quite a few owners have had there houses for 20 years plus,probably aged late  70,s to mid 80,s manged on pensions that have not kept up with inflation and the brexit hit collapse in the £ values since 2016 and just do not have the spare capital to fund innovation 14 updates ....or the energy .

[DLMcN]

Thank you, JuanC, for your detailed reply.

You almost make it sound as if the residents' voting option was proposed and initiated ["out of the blue"] by the PP.... I am fairly sure that it was not.

Conversations which I had with Pepa and with Antonio Martinez, indicate that the PP/UCIN coalition was originally hoping and planning to continue working on Innovation 14.

However, at the Los Carrascos meeting, it seemed thst a fair number of residents were unhappy with the prospect of having to pay for something whose completion date was unknown... < That was when the PP realised that it would be better to listen before acting.

[As an 'outsider' on this issue, I'm quite happy to be corrected if any of this^ is wrong].

[Tetley]

I see no way the embargo will be removed, thus blocking approval of parcelisation projects.


So finally Roger we get there .....it was never going to be behind anybody buy august  and it is not a village political issue concerning any current party .....

its a company and mercantile law & tax & Administration  issue 


well done Rog ,you got there in the end .......

[Roger]

Regarding the issue with Promar.

I have very limited knowledge of their affairs, but it's a mess.
They are not trading and owe money to the Hacienda and others.

They have land in Los Torres, los carrascos and El Rincon, all subject to the embargo.

In Los carrascos and El Rincon the clients have removed themselves from the embargo with afos, leaving the embargo on the remainder of the fincas.

This is the planning process for the residents of Los Torres.
But the process is frozen since Promar have had their registration certificate suspended because they had not submitted tax returns for some years.

I see no way the embargo will be removed, thus blocking approval of parcelisation projects.

The residents of Los Torres need Promar to sign to allow them to segregate themselves from the condominium they entered in 2008.

Will they be able to get their certification returned while owing so much?
I don't know, or what the options will be for the residents.

This is for the lawyers.