What was the Notary doing when the houses were sold?

[AndyH]

They can be held accountable (in theory) and have to have what amounts to "negligence insurance" in place.

This does not cost a lot, apparently, and from that you can infer few cases are launched against them... what the success rate is, I have no idea.

Andy

[peterhargrave]

To anyones knowledge have any notaries been brought to book or been given immunity either locally or nationally. Or have solicitors been hand in glove with them and hushing up the Notaries errors. Or could there be something in Spanish law which states that although it was their jobs to ensure everything was correct, "They cannot be held accountable"????????  If not why aren't they???????
:tiphat: :tiphat: :tiphat:

[digifidd]

I wish someone had told the local notaries that this was their job!!!  I don't think many have read their job spec properly.

[peterhargrave]

Is there anyone who has gone this route or have been advised by a legal representative (Old boy Network)?

[galeras1]

If this is truly an issue identifed by the powers that be, identification of the notaries involved would be simple.  They place their huge embossed seal all over the documents,size presumably justifying expense.  Also there few of them.   As for the purchasers taking blame, most of us were truly naive about Spanish practice and, foolishly in hindsight, which is always correct, believed the lawyers.

[Rod]

One law for them, politicians, lawyers,notaries etc. and another law for us, the ordinary folk caught up in this mess and being the first ones to be targetted.

[Albondigas]

The truth of it is that even if you get the barstewards to court and they're found guilty and ordered to pay you back - they don't.

Happened to us - the judge actually told us that although he'd found 100% in our favour and made the final judgement, the defendant may not actually cough up.   And of course, he didn't.

[blueboy]

I've often got stuck in about the agents, but after learning about dodgy paperwork, I suppose it may not in some cases be their fault. They may have all the required paperwork but not know if it's been issued illegally, But I do think some of them, not all, dont answer questions truthfully, for instance  !are there any problems about illegal building in this area!   (answer) !no, it's all blown up by the media, all the properties in this area are legal!. Anybody not doing their homework may well fall for it.  :tiphat:

[AndyH]

You may find the entire text here quite heavy going, but it is packed with valuable information. See specifically section 3.5:

http://www.eui.eu/Documents/DepartmentsCentres/Law/ResearchTeaching/ResearchThemes/EuropeanPrivateLaw/RealPropertyProject/Spain.pdf

It is a complete synopsis of land law (and land transaction law) in Spain.

Andy

[peterhargrave]

Prove it was the Notaries and just go for them, let them with all there legal expertise prove it was someone else, because unlike the builders etc the will have to carry an indemnity cover so you are also more likely to be paid.  :tiphat: :tiphat: :tiphat:

[linedancer]

The problem is by the time you get to the notario, the builders (and lawyers) have had all your money and you've got as much chance as a snowball in hell of getting it back.

[atnuj]

Time towalk the walk,Denounce the notary who witnessed your transactions,denounce the builder who provided your paperwork,denounce your solicitor who told you everything was hunky dory,denounce your townhall for allowing all this to go on and finally denounce the guardia Civil for not protecting you.UP THE REVOLUTION.

Er.... Tomtom.... what about the estate agent who originaly sold you the property?

[tomtom]

Time towalk the walk,Denounce the notary who witnessed your transactions,denounce the builder who provided your paperwork,denounce your solicitor who told you everything was hunky dory,denounce your townhall for allowing all this to go on and finally denounce the guardia Civil for not protecting you.UP THE REVOLUTION.

[peterhargrave]

Regardless of what was understood or not the job of the Notary as last link in the chain was to ensure everything was as it should be and a good one would have gone the extra mile and made sure that the purchaser fully understood even to the point of ensuring that it was in the appropriate language. If everything has tightened up the root cause was that previous it was wrong and therefore Due care was not taken and the NOTARIES were totally at fault, if not get them to prove otherwise. :tiphat: :tiphat: :tiphat:

[AndyH]

They certainly seem to have tightened up quite a lot recently (last 9 months), as on both occasions I made a purchase the Notary checked everything: right down to any small works licenses pertaining to the properties, and took special notes of the bank drafts and originating/receiving accounts. There was no question of "brown envelopes". Both were re-sale properties, though, 25 years old in one case, over 100 years in another, so not quite the same as new builds involving "developers" - which is, I suspect, where most of the outright corruption took place.

Andy

[galeras1]

I sometimes wonder if people read what is written or just imagine the text they would like to see.

I said that I have been involved in such deals, albeit under duress.  Contrary to the experience of Titch, almost everyone I know has done the same.  The lawyers confirming the percentage of the deal that was OK in cash.

I do not have experience this year, but certainly last year it was going on.  I think that with all that is going on both locally and nationally the rose tinted specs about the Spanish morals should be well and truly in the bin.  As I said, and I was not contradicted, corruption is endemic with no hope of recovery on the horizon.

One part advantage with the lower sales prices at present, the lower purchase price makes the whole deal look a bit better, at least on paper.

[linedancer]

Peter Hargreaves you are right, the notaries should be above blame, but I still blame the lawyers.  If my lawyer had said to me it was not legal I would never have gone ahead.  I still have the email that I sent to him asking if he had allowed me to buy an illegal house to which of course he replied no.  Its disgusting the procedures which have put everyone in this position and they are still trying to blame us for it. 

[peterhargrave]

I have to say that with the NOTARIES the BUCK STOPS HERE the builders, developers, architect, town hall, politicians, banks, estate agents, mayors,electric and water suppliers, sellers of the land were all guilty but the one person who should have made sure it was all legal was........
THE NOTARIES :tiphat: :tiphat: :tiphat:

[jabba the cat]

Galera                                                                                                                                                                                         When you build houses you need materials.so IVA is paid on materials bought to build villas most workers would i assume pay taxes,land taxes
would be paid house taxes as well, multiply by the housing bubble and all the above mentioned people or companies earn more profits so payed more in taxes so there you have millions /billions of extra taxes. As you say over the table in cash well it went on dont know if it still goes on now but one thing is certain when you sell they will definitely want their 171/2 % CGT or has it gone up now.

[blueboy]

Unfortunately tintin, that was the way many builders and developers worked and many solicitors advised to procede.
On one attempt to buy a villa, I was asked to pay over the table a large amount of cash, I refused to do this even after my lawyer advised !it's ok, do it! the builder said !no cash, no villa! so I walked out.
That was only a couple of years ago but I may have fallen for it a few years before that. :tiphat:  

[Titch]

Galera

Do NOT tar everyone with the same bush as yourself.  I feel sure that all the clients (mugs) of my particular developer paid the developer in FULL. I know of no-one who was involved with cash in an envelope under the table although I have heard the practice mentioned.

I WAS NOT complicit in any fraud.

Titch

[tintin]

can I assume then Galeras from your last post you were complicit in the corruption and fraud by saving a bit of tax and paying part cash. all of mine i have paid the full price which has been documented. how many others have done the same as you and are now complaing when its all gone wrong. Perhaps this is the root of the problems as this used to be the way it was done with bribes and tax evasion.
Mike

[galeras1]

"Whos next to be named and shamed in this scandal which brings shame on this area and Spain must be the goverment who took all these TAXES/IVA that suddenly arrived on their desks and not thinking where have all these billions of euros  come from and why"

What taxes?  In every house purchase I have been involved in a large proportion of the purchase price was paid in cash avoiding taxes.  Are you telling me that these upholders of the law do not know this is going on and, moreover, being complicit in the fraud?

Before the holier than thou`s say you should not do it, the purchase was dependant on the cash payment.  Everyone in Spain is involved.  Fraud is endemic and there is little to be done to stop it, because it will involve removing every politician and official in the country.  Including the judges.

[jabba the cat]

so we have all these below who knew or had a idea what was going on
land-sellers
builders
architects
Solicitors
Ayuntamiento
Mayors
Estate agents
Water co
Electricity co
Notaries

Whos next to be named and shamed in this scandal which brings shame on this area and Spain must be the goverment who took all these TAXES/IVA that suddenly arrived on their desks and not thinking where have all these billions of euros  come from and why.

Every part of the system  had their faces in the money trough and are now in denial and passing the blame to all and sundry
even including the Brits who trusted the system which was now found out to be rotton/corrupt to the core. >

[digifidd]

What were they doing?  Raking in the cash, back slapping with their mates in the men's club and probably congratulating each other on fleecing the oh so rich and stupid Brits!!

We were told that the notary had to have the paperwork for 2 weeks before giving us an appointment to complete.  What was he doing with it - resting his feet on it?  Because he sure as heck wasn't checking it's legality.

He could so easily have checked with our Ayuntamiento Urbanismo to see if the place had all permissions/licenses in place but I'm guessing that he didn't.  Unfortunately, if I had known to do this before buying I would have done so but even when I was signing on the Padron and giving the new address of the house we were due to buy none of the officials advised us to check the legality of the house in the other office.

[peterhargrave]

That is fine let the Abrogados blame the Notaries, they will then have all the legal argument costs and not the innocent purchasers who bought their properties under the misplaced belief that those legally trained persons were both there to ensure everything was legal and correct and protect the client from fraudulent and unlawful actions.

I have still got a large number of Anti Demolition Car Stickers which I am happy to donate if I can find a few volunteers to sell them and every cent raised will go to a fighting fund to help prove a test case and therefore secure compensation in the event of any demolition where a refund is unobtainable from a missing or bankrupt builder. Are there any offers to get this going???? :tiphat: :tiphat: :tiphat:

Peter

[Albondigas]

The abogados will blame the notaries and vice versa

Basically most of them are either incompetent, corrupt or just plain lazy.

[peterhargrave]

That Saffi is it, why aren't the notaries also in the dock, to me it is clear we should be holding them responsible because for all of the purchasers the notary was the final line of defense for those who had trusted the system, they were the people with the knowledge who were paid for this and showed in many cases not to have given the task and the client the duty of care and the system seems to ignore this. WHY? WHY? WHY?
:tiphat: :tiphat: :tiphat:

[judi bk]

Thanks Saffi - you put it so much better than me but that is what I meant

[Saffi]

12. What is the function of notaries?
Quote from a legal forum

"Notaries are legal professionals whose main function is to perform the public service of conferring authenticity on documents in private legal transactions. They also help to draft these documents correctly and to formalise them with their authority and signature".
"Their legal training and practical experience enable them to provide individuals with legal certainty. This training and experience guarantees the accuracy of notarial documents, which are enforceable and are treated as preferred evidence in lawsuits".
"Notarial records are particularly important. The originals or protocols of documents authorised by notaries are kept by them for 25 years from the date of issue".
European Commission - European Judicial Network - Legal professions - Spain

Read more: Function of Notaries......... - Spain Forums http://www.thespainforum.com/f344/function-notaries-234818/#ixzz0sY1FFP78

[HiDi]

I think you will find that the notary is only a witness to the signing of documents.

[Rod]

I know what they were doing, celebrating from taking our hard earned cash and saying "what mugs they must be".

[Roger]

I have seen escrituras with Final de Obras Certificates not stamped by the College of Architects, and therefore not legal.
But the Notary has accepted them.
Just about everyone did not do their job correctly.
Hence the problem we are in.
Unfortunately only the politicians have to face elections.

[peterhargrave]

Surely the written contract is all of the parts one of which is to test the legallity of the elements which make up the contract, another is to verify the truthfulness of the evidence supplied and verifying the signatures stamps and taking oaths on all of this. This being the case allowing the perjury firstly to have slipped through and the to go unpunished or not brought the guilty parties to task is a real case of ignoring the law the truth and the duty of care/ :tiphat: :tiphat: :tiphat:

[judi bk]

I think they only have to check that the written contract is legal.