Devolution Thread

[Challenger 383]

i think all the possible outcomes and problems have been thought out, dumbed down, and papered over, and people are hearing only what they want to hear.

No matter what the outcome, with the vote close to 50-50 all you will end up with is a deeply divided country, and an England that will just want to wash their hands and move on. My concern is God forbid the Scots go it alone and it turns pearshaped, who will be picking up the pieces?

  It is obvious the entire military machine will have to move south, no more building/repairing RN ships, Nuclear subs, Air force, and everything else all of which i suspect employ a massive sub contract workforce...so much will change, and only England and Wales will be the winners One thing for sure, the divorce will be very messy, it always is, and nobody wins in the end there are only losers.

 

[ramblarider]

All EU law and regulations already apply in Scotland, they are not on the outside trying to get in, They are and have been EU members for the last 40 years. They meet the criteria already. The other countries facing separatist problems might try to cause some problems and Scotland "MAY" need to reapply, but they will most certainly be in the EU. keeping the pound, the only trouble Scotland could have is the main political parties at Westminster blocking a currency union

Let me set you straight on a few points.

Eu Law presently applies. It would cease to do so on 'Independence day'. This has been made crystal clear by the EU several times.

"If part of the territory of a member state would cease to be part of that state because it were to become a new independent state, the (EU) treaties would no longer apply to that territory," Barroso said, meaning an independent Scotland would no longer be part of the EU:

That remains the official position. They would be out, and would have to re-apply. There is no "may" about it.

They do not meet the criteria when considered separately from the rest of the UK.

There is not going to be a currency union. It has been categorically ruled out. Will not happen.

Scotland's chances of EU membership without their own stable currency is zero. In any event, it is now the case that new members must adopt the Euro - so they would have to drop the £ sterling regardless.

To answer your last point, only EU Citizens have a right to live and work in the EU. Once out of the EU, Scottish Citizens will not have that right. I fail to see why this is so hard to understand.

[macc]

All EU law and regulations already apply in Scotland, they are not on the outside trying to get in, They are and have been EU members for the last 40 years. They meet the criteria already. The other countries facing separatist problems might try to cause some problems and Scotland "MAY" need to reapply, but they will most certainly be in the EU. keeping the pound, the only trouble Scotland could have is the main political parties at Westminster blocking a currency union, we will allow you a vote for independence, but we will screw you on currency and threaten you with loads of sñit if you start getting close to a yes vote, and nothing has changed.  I would assume the majority of Scotts will want to change their British passport for a Scottish anyway, the no side may have a problem, but its a vote. I think next week is going to be very difficult for the yes vote, what untruths, scandals will be revealed about Salmond and his team. As Webe said, they are all talking and saying nothing, lots of could, might, possibly, maybe, even Theresa Maybe, states nothing for sure, or definite. all she  said is could lose. Like i could win the lottery, now that,s a fact, or maybe, possibly might win, all true i hope.  :rofl: :drinks: Ramblarider, why would anybody deny a Scottish passport holder the right to love anywhere on the planet, now that,s going over the top, but they will probably try to introduce it into next weeks politricks.

[LisaD]

This is the problem - Salmond & Co haven't thought this through at all.

I am also wondering about the health system in Scotland, which is currently better than England.  Can't see that situation continuing for long if the "Yes" vote wins.

[ramblarider]

I guess that a person whose passport states " place of birth" as a place in Scotland will be okay until it needs renewing.

That seems to be what they are implying, but no guarantees or assurances of any kind have been given. They could simply say that if your place of birth is Scotland, you have 12 months to exchange it for a Scottish (Non-EU) version. No-one really knows.

[JessicaH]

I guess that a person whose passport states " place of birth" as a place in Scotland will be okay until it needs renewing.
Whatever happens, after a yes vote, is going to take years to get everything organised. Meanwhile, chaos will reign..methinks.

[macc]

Cameron doing his best when he thought it couldn't happen, but it,s too close for comfort now, and the tories are going to give it loads of bull next week. I wouldn't be surprised if they try to link Salmond to Jimmy and old Rolf.http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron-scotland-will-never-get-independence-1050223

[ramblarider]

Ramblarider - please see this from the same Theresa May@

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/the-issuing-withdrawal-or-refusal-of-passports

Also Note on Withdrawal of British Citizenship dated Sep 2014, based on s.40 of the British Nationality Act 1981 (as amended)
http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/research/briefing-papers/SN06820/deprivation-of-british-citizenship-and-withdrawal-of-passport-facilities

I and most Brits here are British nationals and citizens by birth, and subject to the provisions of the act may remain so unless they fall into the specific categories contained in S.40


I do not believe that that status can be anulled, other than by S.40 and subsequent proceedings

I would suggest you read that again. This time note it only applies to BRITISH NATIONALS - which those born in Scotland WOULD CEASE TO BE once that becomes an independent country.

You would become a SCOTTISH CITIZEN if you were born there, not a BRITISH CITIZEN.  None of the above restrictions on passport or 'citizenship' withdrawal would apply to you. Those only relate to British citizens.

Just as... if the UK or Scotland... or England... left the EU, those of us who are currently EU Citizens would cease to be EU Citizens.

All the rights and entitlements associated with those respective nationalities or citizenships... gone. Lost. Given up.

The only way you could retain your status would be if (big if) the remaining UK government allowed you to apply for dual nationality. It has been made plain this would not be a formality. I quote:

"Mrs May made it clear that Scots may have no choice but to give up their British passports.

She said: "As I made clear to the honourable gentlemen who asked the question [Mr McCann], decisions on UK citizenship remain with the UK government, but if the vote in the referendum is for a separatist vote then Scotland will become a separate state – it will not be part of the UK.

"That is a very simple fact and I suggest the honourable member recognise that."

[NormanM]

Ramblarider - please see this from the same Theresa May@

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/the-issuing-withdrawal-or-refusal-of-passports

Also Note on Withdrawal of British Citizenship dated Sep 2014, based on s.40 of the British Nationality Act 1981 (as amended)
http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/research/briefing-papers/SN06820/deprivation-of-british-citizenship-and-withdrawal-of-passport-facilities

I and most Brits here are British nationals and citizens by birth, and subject to the provisions of the act may remain so unless they fall into the specific categories contained in S.40


I do not believe that that status can be anulled, other than by S.40 and subsequent proceedings

[hank]

https://www.globalcreditportal.com/ratingsdirect/renderArticle.do?articleId=1354708&SctArtId=258487&from=CM&nsl_code=LIME&sourceObjectId=8779986&sourceRevId=1&fee_ind=N&exp_date=20240821-16:23:30
Standard & Poor's Global Credit Portal
www.globalcreditportal.com

The above is a link to the Standard & Poors assessment of the Scottish Economys' credit rating and value after the 18th September.
In short it states that a status quo is likely to apply for a number of months, as it is not possible to change everything overnight.
Consequently it suggests that the New Scotland should continue with the current credit status of AAA which it currently enjoys via the UK.
It states that the New Scotland economy is likely to need to lean heavily on revenue from oil and the financial services industry.
The report does not dwell on the oil revenue.
However the financial services industry cannot continue to provide products or services from an unregulated environment, which New Scotland will be from the 19th.
It will take New Scotland too long to create a fully regulated structure so the financial services sector will need to relocate to a fully regulated environment - the UK or similar. That's banks, insurance, investment and pensions companies.
Economic changes like this may mean a lowering of the Standard & Poors AAA credit rating.

I would say that the last thing New Scotland wants to do is gain Independence and then after the euphoria dies away, take a series of unthought out body blows which mean a head-in-hands rethink on the whole thing.
Very difficult times ahead for New Scotland and near neighbours if the Yes campaign wins.

[webejamin]

 ;D It's worse it's getting ;D

[ramblarider]

Since you have all the factual answers, obviously, maybe you could help me by explaining:

1. How will Scotland still be in the EU if they vote 'Yes', when the EU Commission have unequivocally stated that in such a case, they will not 'carry over' the UK's status but will need to apply as a separate entity? A process that takes years and requires the unanimous agreement of other EU members (including Spain and Belgium both of whom have good reasons for refusing)?

2. What currency will they be using?  If the same Pound Sterling as England, where will the Central Bank be located and how will they control monetary policy? Interest rates, etc? How will they not be reliant upon London for this?

3. In the event they are out of the EU and their application is denied or takes years, what will become of Scottish passport holders in terms of their right to love and work in EU states? Are their any guarantees in place to protect these individual's existing rights?

4. You think it is 'scaremongering' for the UK Home secretary to state that they would be unlikely to allow citizens of the 'new' Scotland British (EU) passports carrying the same rights as the current UK passport.  Please explain how they could lawfully allow citizens of an independent , third party non-EU state to travel on an EU passport.

I await enlightenment  :tiphat:

[Tetley]

Well to be honest ,ive heared all the scares from big buisness ,uncle tom coblers and all infact the media manipulation is probably helping the yes vote more than its helping the no vote ,however i havent heard anybody on abought the possible impacts of not been in the EU................. i  wonder why  ?

:tiphat:

[macc]

Some of the things being quoted on here and in the media, are typical of the whole campaign and people are falling for it. As I said before, nobody is giving any facts, almost every quote by politicians and pundits, contain the words "may" "might" "possibly" "indications" "maybe" "I think" "would or could" The list is endless, Very few people are able to say what "will" happen with any of it, or what "is" going to happen. The reason for this kind of rhetoric, is to persuade people, by suggesting an outcome, not defining an outcome.
Call it what you like, nobody knows what will happen for definite, the yes voters are taking a chance, the no voters are playing it safe. One thing is for sure, most of the rhetoric, from most of the politicians and pundits is scaremongering, it's what they do best.
My dad always said "save your money for your old age" I said to him once "I probably won't live that long" he said "but you might" It did make me think ;)  :tiphat: 

The most correct and factual statement any body has made on this whole debate so far, nice one Webe. With the No vote politricks it,s all scaremongering and unfair media coverage. Scotland will vote yes, but either way it,s a win for Salmond and Scotland.

[Tetley]

That is what I find scary too. How little of it people really understand - and in this case, you have 16-year-olds voting on it...  absolute insanity in my opinion.  Democracy? It is complete madness.

I had a conversation just the other week with someone where they told me they "can't wait to ditch the EU". Why? "So we can deport terrorists and stop all those Poles and other 'foreigners' taking 'our' jobs" was the response. They told me they'd be voting for UKIP.

Where do they live full time? SPAIN!  :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

a large uk factory i know of is upping sticks and moving to China......... one chap told me..... thats it..... im now voteing UKIP as we have to make a stand....... :-X

[JessicaH]

I equate this situation with a young person wanting to join a squat or commune assuming that this is total independence whilst still desiring to keep the key to the family home for when problems occur.

People who care realise this is pie in the sky ideology initially and try to  explain that it just swapping one set of problems for another because  there is always someone in any community, however small, who will make the rules plus in life there will always be the "haves"and "have nots".

As discussion leads to argument the key of the family home is removed .

The leader of the squat/ commune is over the moon promising you have entered utopia.......and then realisation sets in.....you have been isolated from those who really cared ..and there is no way back.

[ramblarider]

That is what I find scary too. How little of it people really understand - and in this case, you have 16-year-olds voting on it...  absolute insanity in my opinion.  Democracy? It is complete madness.

I had a conversation just the other week with someone where they told me they "can't wait to ditch the EU". Why? "So we can deport terrorists and stop all those Poles and other 'foreigners' taking 'our' jobs" was the response. They told me they'd be voting for UKIP.

Where do they live full time? SPAIN!  :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[Tetley]

one of the main things ive grassped over the last 2 years talking to people  in uk and here is that people have little understanding of ramifacations of not been in the EU and the restrictions it could or will bring if we exit.

either people just arnt grasping it or they are grasping it and are then convinceing themselfs that they will be un effected.

:tiphat:

[ramblarider]

every quote by politicians and pundits, contain the words "may" "might" "possibly" "indications" "maybe" "I think" "would or could" The list is endless, Very few people are able to say what "will" happen with any of it, or what "is" going to happen. The reason for this kind of rhetoric, is to persuade people, by suggesting an outcome, not defining an outcome.

That is because it is uncharted territory. It has never been close to happening before.

You are completely deluded, though, if you think they are just saying all this stuff about passports and citizenship "for effect". They are categorically not. As the law stands, right now, this is what would almost certainly HAVE to happen. There are well established rules on what HAS to happen at a border between an EU state and a non-EU state, for example. This is not 'optional'. There are also established rules on how citizens of an EU state are treated vs. those from non-EU states. These are not optional, either. There are also explicit rules on how states can become members. Again, that is not 'optional' either. It is required. Now... they COULD (in theory) change the rules, but that is a very long, complex and involved process indeed and some would almost certainly object, thereby blocking any such change. There would be no guaranteed outcome.

Those who seem to think life would just carry on as before quite simply do not "get it". The implications are profound and would have all kinds of unexpected effects on day-to-day life. Everything from placing mail orders between Scotland and the rest of the EU (customs controls would be obligatory), to passports, to driving licenses, to moving between Scotland and any other EU state, to money transfers, banking risks, to well... just about everything. Some of these have hardly even been considered yet, and no-one has definitive answers to what might really happen in all cases. You can certainly count on the fact, though, as Tetley says. Life would not get easier and simpler. It would get a whole lot more difficult and problematic.

[webejamin]

I agree felipe, but it has worked on the potential yes voters too. By colouring up the answers with the same words, some people believe "may" meant "will". Some laws and rules will obviously have to be observed, but for the yes voters, it can't be just be about the EU.
The "yes" voters will hear the best scenarios, while the "no" voters will hear the worst.
Years ago, India won independence and some others too, but they kept the right to a British passport of sorts. Another thing, will Scotland be in the British commonwealth? Just another question :tiphat:        

[Tetley]

 :notopic: ish and as an example only without wishing any offence.

Most Brits either holiday home owning or permant living in Spain have been brought up through out there working lifes on the common sence approach to buisness and living.

they invested here using the same theorys most of us were trained with,ie comon sence ,however..... as the illigal build situation has un folded and is still un resolved  governments dont always use the same ethics or common sence.

in my veiw
if its not in the Spanish rule book somewere that a non EU  cit can reside here on a pension or with limited funding ,most will have a devil of o job staying as a non EU  cit ,unless of coarse a deal was done by the EU GOVS.

a few years ago when the crisis started here the Sp gov were offering residency to Russian citizens spending & investing 250k plus.

the biggest thing thats opend my eyes here in all the time we have house owned here is my youngster starting law school and the amount of law types there are here, most of them been black or white and very inflexible.

i certainly dont want to loose Scotland or the united kigdom next week and i certainly dont want a united kingdom government taking us out of the EU  .

morning citizens    :tiphat:

[felipe]

Some of the things being quoted on here and in the media, are typical of the whole campaign and people are falling for it. As I said before, nobody is giving any facts, almost every quote by politicians and pundits, contain the words "may" "might" "possibly" "indications" "maybe" "I think" "would or could" The list is endless, Very few people are able to say what "will" happen with any of it, or what "is" going to happen. The reason for this kind of rhetoric, is to persuade people, by suggesting an outcome, not defining an outcome.
Call it what you like, nobody knows what will happen for definite, the yes voters are taking a chance, the no voters are playing it safe. One thing is for sure, most of the rhetoric, from most of the politicians and pundits is scaremongering, it's what they do best.
My dad always said "save your money for your old age" I said to him once "I probably won't live that long" he said "but you might" It did make me think ;)  :tiphat: 

I think it is more simple than that. I believe that the NO campaign, including the bods in London, all believed that Scotland would vote NO and never really thought about the consequences if they voted YES. Now that there is a genuine possibility that the vote will go the way of YES they are panicking to some degree. Hence all the 'could', might be' may be' etc.

The truth is that if they vote out then they will not be EU members that has already been stated by the EU. It is the consequences of that which is under scrutiny.     

[webejamin]

Some of the things being quoted on here and in the media, are typical of the whole campaign and people are falling for it. As I said before, nobody is giving any facts, almost every quote by politicians and pundits, contain the words "may" "might" "possibly" "indications" "maybe" "I think" "would or could" The list is endless, Very few people are able to say what "will" happen with any of it, or what "is" going to happen. The reason for this kind of rhetoric, is to persuade people, by suggesting an outcome, not defining an outcome.
Call it what you like, nobody knows what will happen for definite, the yes voters are taking a chance, the no voters are playing it safe. One thing is for sure, most of the rhetoric, from most of the politicians and pundits is scaremongering, it's what they do best.
My dad always said "save your money for your old age" I said to him once "I probably won't live that long" he said "but you might" It did make me think ;)  :tiphat: 

[ramblarider]

Here you. This is what Theresa May has indicated.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/scottish-independence-uk-passport-loss-indication-1-2961819

"Mrs May made it clear that Scots may have no choice but to give up their British passports"

This is not scaremongering. This is reality.

[ramblarider]

Rambla rider.  Firstly, I hold aUK passport. Is that going to be taken away from me?  I think not.  Secondlythere is no such creature as an "EU citizen" as far as I am aware.

1. According to discussion documents circulating in official circles, the current view is that people born in Scotland would be regarded as Scottish, not British, citizens and would be unable to renew a 'current' UK passport when it expires. They would need to apply for a Scottish passport instead. If Scotland is not in the EU at that point, it would be a non-EU passport. Theresa May has voiced such an opinion too, though I cannot find a link to it. So, the answer to that is that yes, you could indeed find your current EU/UK passport taken away.

2. The term "EU Citizen" is defined as a "person having citizenship of a country belonging to the EU". It is used in multiple (thousands) of EU Directives and has legal effect in terms of rights of free movement, driving licenses, etc. It is a real term, with real meaning. As is "non-Eu citizen" - please see:

http://ec.europa.eu/justice/citizen/

[Sue James]

I have been wondering- if there is a yes vote  what will happen about health care? Will all travelers to and from Scotland need personal health and travel insurance?

[NormanM]

Rambla rider.  Firstly, I hold aUK passport. Is that going to be taken away from me?  I think not.  Secondlythere is no such creature as an "EU citizen" as far as I am aware.

[webejamin]

Spose anyone living in Scotland will only be entitled to a Scottish passport, provided they are Scottish anyway. I can see all kinds of aggro there, if it's a close thing, whichever way it goes, maybe even a Scottish civil war :o you know what they're like when they get out of their prams  :o they've done it before :o
Spain's gonna be at it next :o Maybe we should all go our own ways? Arbiland would be a good start ;D
A bloke was on the radio calling for an independent England, or at least an English parliament ??? only fair really I spose  ???   

[Tetley]

I think anyone born in Scotland, but resident in the UK, not Scotland, will already be British, with a UK passport. I think it's silly to think the UK would turf out Scott's living here. They would still be EU residents. The only Scott's that won't be EU residents, are those that choose to take out Scottish passports and therefore declare themselves non UK citizens.
When all the fuss has died down and the decision is made, all kinds of new rules and laws will evolve to suit, so don't be worrying about it, have a wee dram and forget it all, coz we might all be blown off the face of the earth soon anyway. ;D It's not all bad news is it ;D  :tiphat:        

Jamms
mi step mars local snp chap has already told here she will be getting a scotish passport and driving licence if it  a YES vote,also intresting,her kids wernt entitled to vote because they lived in England,Germany,Monaco all are scotts born & bread and one has a holiday home there.

spin the union wheel  :tiphat:

[webejamin]

I think anyone born in Scotland, but resident in the UK, not Scotland, will already be British, with a UK passport. I think it's silly to think the UK would turf out Scott's living here. They would still be EU residents. The only Scott's that won't be EU residents, are those that choose to take out Scottish passports and therefore declare themselves non UK citizens.
When all the fuss has died down and the decision is made, all kinds of new rules and laws will evolve to suit, so don't be worrying about it, have a wee dram and forget it all, coz we might all be blown off the face of the earth soon anyway. ;D It's not all bad news is it ;D  :tiphat:        

[ramblarider]

I assume that by Scottish citizenship you mean those born in Scotland? If so, does this mean that all those that were born there have to have a Scottish passport? That all those currently residing in other parts of the UK will have no right to live and work there?

If that is the case, then there will be another million or more on their way back north of the border. Or will they be classed as illegal immigrants and allowed to stay?

If you were born in Scotland, you will be regarded as a Scottish citizen. If you do not have a secondary citizenship, that will be your sole nationality.

If Scotland is not in the EU, then you will be a citizen of a non-EU country. Simple as that.

The same would happen to English people if the remaining UK pulled out of the EU.

It is possible some "workarounds" MIGHT be negotiated... but that really is a "might".... not a sure thing, and no-one knows devil might be in the details. As things stand, the basic, fundamental RIGHT to live/work in Spain, for example, would be lost. Gone. How the 'English' government might look upon those non-EU Scottish citizens taking "British" jobs is anyone's guess....

I hope they have a lot of available jobs and housing in Scotland... and in England/Wales/NI too, because the days of people moving abroad to live and work with minimum hassle woulds be over for good.

[ramblarider]

just to remove any doubt If Brits are part of the EU ,you have the same rights as a Spanish citizen,if the Brits or the Scots arnt in the EU  you wont have.

the lights seem on,but no bodys aswering the door............. on this Brit /Scot EU withdrawl .

:tiphat:

Spot on.

You are either an EU citizen or you are not. If your country is not in the EU - then you cannot be an EU Citizen and cannot take advantage of the "free movement" rules.  The lack of understanding on this subject is staggering... and again highlights the sheer idiocy of giving people a vote on a topic they just do not understand.

The rest of the UK (NI, England and Wales) would be under zero obligation to allow citizens from an independent Scotland a "rUK" passport. Why should they? They do not give them to citizens from Eire... there would be no difference. Independence means just that. Independent. Not still part of the UK when it suits...

Given that it is highly, highly unlikely Scotland would be in the EU from day one, then those Scottish citizens also lose EU citizenship - just as they lose "UK" citizenship. That means no right to live or work in any other EU country (incidentally, that means no right to live or work in England or Wales too).

[felipe]

I assume that by Scottish citizenship you mean those born in Scotland? If so, does this mean that all those that were born there have to have a Scottish passport? That all those currently residing in other parts of the UK will have no right to live and work there?

If that is the case, then there will be another million or more on their way back north of the border. Or will they be classed as illegal immigrants and allowed to stay?

[Tetley]

Basikly to put it in workshop language .

if were not in the EU  we will be up shnt  creek .

:tiphat:

[ramblarider]

Right to reside in Spain? We who hold British passports will still be British citizens in any event - so where is the risk?

No. Absolutely not.

The 'Citizenship' plans have been spelled out. Scotland would be an independent country, no longer part of the UK.  It will have its own passports. Scottish citizens will not be entitled to a 'UK' passport - they will need to use a Scottish passport. This will be a non-EU passport.

Upon Scotland leaving the UK, unless it manages some form of 'continuing membership' which the EU Commission has stated is "not possible", then Scottish citizens become non-EU citizens and will have the same right to live and work in the EU as someone from Nigeria or China. i.e, none at all.

I actually do not understand why this point has not been made clearer by the 'No' campaign.

See:

http://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/policy-primers/citizenship-borders-and-migration-independent-scotland