Devolution Thread

[macc]

I seriously wouldn't put it past Cameron and Salmon to have done a deal on the referendum. Cameron "may" have said "look Al old chap, lets you and I feed both our people bullshit, just to make it look like we don't agree, then you'll end up with Scotland to do as you please with and I'll end up being boss of the rest, forever"  OK mate ?:o  Then Alex replied "och aye  ;D suits me sir"  ;D
Then, after independence is declared, both Scottish and British working class people, go back to the dark ages :tiphat:

It would appear Salmond doesn't do the bullshit stuff, he knows exactly what he is doing and what he is saying and what he wants. Independence, It is not something new for him, it,s just the same old same old fight, but this time i think he has the support he deserves, who knows, we will have to wait and see. This video is nearly 20 years old, but the debate could have been from last week. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=if-2A47U5PQ

[webejamin]

Just another thought. After the results, I think there could be all kinds of problems, for the UK or Scotland. A yes vote may well invoke all kinds of trouble on the streets in Scotland coz they're not known for taking a beating lightly. I suspect the no's will win by maybe 10%, but then all the promises made by Cameron will have to be argued and of course he will welsh on all of them. So, watch for skin and hair flying, whatever the outcome :o   

[webejamin]

Let's just hope that many of the "yes" voters are just saying they will vote "yes" to look cool, but vote "no" coz at the end of the day they've got more sense, nobody will know anyway :whistle:

[BassBunny]

Surely if you are working in Scotland and from another EU country you would vote NO as otherwise you could be out of Scotland soon.

Both the Belgians and the Spanish have an interest in this vote as they have regions who want Independence, so will be keen to see what happens with the EU in the event of a Yes vote. The Poles hate the English as they believe we view them as "spongers", the list goes on.

[Tetley]

Surely if you are working in Scotland and from another EU country you would vote NO as otherwise you could be out of Scotland soon.

we have UKIPERS  home owners this end .............. :lol:  who knows if the EU Folks  will vote to leave the sasanks    :)

[webejamin]

I seriously wouldn't put it past Cameron and Salmon to have done a deal on the referendum. Cameron "may" have said "look Al old chap, lets you and I feed both our people bullshit, just to make it look like we don't agree, then you'll end up with Scotland to do as you please with and I'll end up being boss of the rest, forever"  OK mate ?:o  Then Alex replied "och aye  ;D suits me sir"  ;D
Then, after independence is declared, both Scottish and British working class people, go back to the dark ages :tiphat:

[Rod]

Surely if you are working in Scotland and from another EU country you would vote NO as otherwise you could be out of Scotland soon.

[BassBunny]

I actually don't think it should have been just up to Scotland to decide anyway - if you're part of a union then all parties to that union should be voting, not just Scotland.

It also would have been a good idea to let all the Scots vote ie the ones not based in Scotland but born Scot,there would have been 3 no votes in our famiy streight away.

:tiphat:

Quite right. The whole thing stinks. Scottish born people living outside Scotland don't get a vote yet 160,000 "Non British Europeans", including Spanish, Belgians etc. WILL get a vote.

[Tetley]

I actually don't think it should have been just up to Scotland to decide anyway - if you're part of a union then all parties to that union should be voting, not just Scotland.

It also would have been a good idea to let all the Scots vote ie the ones not based in Scotland but born Scot,there would have been 3 no votes in our famiy streight away.

:tiphat:

[Sandi]

I am English by birth but have lived in Central and NE Scotland for +40 years. It's a beautiful part of the world and most of the Scots are lovely people. Scotland's First Minister is a master at dodging the real issues, he'll say anything to get a vote, only if there is a Yes decision will he eventually be exposed...Too Late! Bringing 16 year old in to vote confirms his desperation.  There is very much an anti English feeling here and a lot of people are voting Yes to 'get rid of England' they aren't looking at the bigger picture. When it hits their pockets they'll start complaining but sorry folks, you've made your bed now lie in it. It will be tragic if the UK is split up, for England, Wales, Northern Ireland AND Scotland - we really are Better Together. Fingers crossed common sense prevails on Thursday.

[Karen4]

I agree with you entirely! I was talking earlier today on Facebook to my friend Deirdre, who is a councillor in the Highland region in Scotland, and this was her message:

Karen, I am frightened, truly frightened. This vote is too close to call and these nationalists are horrible, mad or both..... Alex Salmond has succeeded in splitting my lovely, peaceful country right down the middle. Losing sleep, dry mouth, upset stomach. Pray for us my friend as we are truly staring into the abyss. xx

As for 16 year olds voting....they'll have been force fed the "Braveheart" illusion....

[Karen4]

I actually don't think it should have been just up to Scotland to decide anyway - if you're part of a union then all parties to that union should be voting, not just Scotland.

[Tetley]

Well my theory is,is that no body is shouting abought the EU  loss bit  ,because Camron will be in the same boat in two years time with his EU referendum  and folks asking questions just isnt tennis when your attempting to guide the masses with bolaticks    ;D

after Thursadays "YES " we can all look foarward to years of far right tory English  government ,infact whats needed is for the PM  to change his name to" Dave  Cromwell our lord protector " in readyness   :crazy:


;)

[ramblarider]

Like I've said before, plenty of May's and may not's. :tiphat: Mornin all, looks like a nice day, think I'll go fishin  ;D  

Quite. That is where I have a problem with this situation. People are being asked to make a once in a lifetime, forever, vote without actually knowing what the consequences will be on some basic, but critically important issues. That is reckless, and bonkers.

I cannot quite understand why both sides did not get together and spell out - clearly - what would happen to citizenship, passports, driving licenses, border controls, currency etc.

Instead - people are being asked to vote without having any definitive answers! How can you vote on that basis?  

Even when you have the Bank of England and leaders of the three main parties in England saying "there will never be a currency union", you have Salmond continuing to insist there will be... so maybe it simply proved impossible to arrive at an "agreed" position... who knows...

If I was Scottish my reaction would be that I would not be able to vote until I had some straight answers to these issues. Currently, people are being expected to vote without a clue as to what will happen. As I said before, to me, that is ridiculous.

[Three Blind Mice]

Those kids may well know little about politics, they also prob care less about them, but they can see what is happening all around them, they see the lack of jobs, the drugs, the hooker who sells herself for her daily fix, or to feed her kids, they see the depravation, they see the lack of hope, but they know who is responsible, that is why they are voting Yes.

What a load of baloney! So all these problems are the fault of the Union ?  These issues would suddenly disappear with Independence? And as for 16 year olds having a vote - that was just a cynical ploy by Salmond and his ilk to boost the yes vote. You say that these kids are politically ignorant and probably don't even care about them and that all politicians are liars - - but wow if they get Independence then everything will improve!  I have lived for considerable lengths of time in the west of Scotland and also in the East. In my experience there is definitely an anti English mentality in the west but in the East the attitude is very different- far more friendly in general and no anti English at all. The trouble is that emotions seem to cloud rational judgement.  The Union seems to me to be working well enough (look at other countries for comparison) so IMO 'if it aint broke don't try and fix it'.  :whistle:
[
I never said the problems would disappear with a Yes vote, I also never said the fault was with the union, tho I believe it is.
I did say in a subsiquent post that Salmond pulled off a master stroke by giving the kids a vote.
Under no illusion that everything will be rosy in the indy garden, it won't, but in time I believe it will be better that presently.

And it's no working/quote]

[webejamin]

I think you are right Karen. If you are born in the UK, you were born in the UK. Same as Irish people born in Ireland before independence. I don't think any part of Britain has broken away since (though I expect some bright spark will come up with one). It would indeed be a case of sour grapes, if Scottish people living in Spain, were deprived of their UK nationality. There are those of course that will quote the laws at you that are generally used for defining citizenship, indeed there was (I'm told) a great fuss over the Irish peoples right to a UK passport after independence. I know plenty of people that have UK passports but were born in Ireland, they also have UK and Irish pensions.
I think that there's quite a bit of ill wishing amongst the "no" supporters as with the "yes" brigade, which of course amounts to scaremongering.

The real issue is that none of this has been adequately spelled out by either the "Yes" or the "No" side - so people are left guessing. Salmond has made various claims, but the simple fact is, it is not up to him alone. Others would have to agree - and they may not...

Like I've said before, plenty of May's and may not's. :tiphat: Mornin all, looks like a nice day, think I'll go fishin  ;D  

[ramblarider]

The issue of dual citizenship with Eire is a different matter, it seems, so I would have thought certain legislation might be needed to deprive the Scots of their British citizenship

No.  Because they would not have any British citizenship to be deprived of. They would have, in effect, Scottish citizenship, backdated, if you will..

See my replies earlier in the thread on this subject.

The real issue is that none of this has been adequately spelled out by either the "Yes" or the "No" side - so people are left guessing. Salmond has made various claims, but the simple fact is, it is not up to him alone. Others would have to agree - and they may not...

[Karen4]

The issue of dual citizenship with Eire is a different matter, it seems, so I would have thought certain legislation might be needed to deprive the Scots of their British citizenship, but at present the grounds appear to be different:

"Revocation of British nationality
Under the Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Act 2006, people with dual nationality who are British nationals can be deprived of their British citizenship if the Secretary of State is satisfied "deprivation is conducive to the public good"; there is a right of appeal.[28] This provision has been in force since 16 June 2006 when the Immigration, Nationality and Asylum Act 2006 (Commencement No 1) Order 2006 came into force.[29] Loss of British nationality in this way also applies to people born in the UK as British citizens and who also hold another nationality.[28][30] As the provision applies only to dual nationals, it cannot render a person stateless.

The Home Office does not issue information on these cases and is resistant to answering questions,[28] for example under the Freedom of Information Act 2000. As of 15 July 2013 at least 17 people had been deprived of their British citizenship, in most cases on the recommendation of MI5. Usually it appears that the government waits until the person has left Britain, then sends a warning notice to their British home and signs a deprivation order a day or two later.[28] Appeals are heard at the highly secretive Special Immigration Appeals Commission (SIAC), where the government can submit evidence that cannot be seen or challenged by the appellant.[28]

Previously since 2003 under the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002, British nationals could be deprived of their citizenship if the Secretary of State was satisfied they were responsible for acts seriously prejudicial to the vital interests of the United Kingdom or an Overseas Territory.

British nationals who are naturalised or registered may lose British nationality if it was obtained by fraud or concealment of a material fact. The nationality laws of the US, Canada and Australia have similar provisions to revoke local nationality from citizens who gained such citizenship via naturalisation."

[ramblarider]

I have entitlement to dual nationality as I was born in the UK, on the island of Ireland, even though it was in Northern Ireland. So I have 2 passports. Surely anyone who was born in the UK can't be stripped of their citizenship?!
God knows they manage to protect all the terrorists and ensure THEIR citizenship rights are protected.

It is against international law to render someone 'stateless'. However, if they have dual nationality, one can be revoked. If you were born in a location that becomes another country, you would be considered a citizen of that country, not the one the country was a part of before it became independent. That is what it appears would happen in the case of Scotland if it left the UK.

[BassBunny]

That is what I find scary too. How little of it people really understand - and in this case, you have 16-year-olds voting on it.

Which is exactly why Salmond gave them the vote. He has sold them his "snake oil" without them seeing through it.

[Karen4]

This sort of HAS happened before, though not within the EU arena:

"The partition of Ireland (Irish: críochdheighilt na hÉireann) was the division of the island of Ireland into two distinct territories: Northern Ireland, a part of the United Kingdom, and the now Republic of Ireland, an independent state. Partition occurred when the British Parliament passed the Government of Ireland Act 1920 creating Northern Ireland and what was then Southern Ireland. From 1801 to 1920 the whole island had formed a constituent country of the United Kingdom. Before then it was the separate Kingdom of Ireland.
The Act of 1920 was intended to create two self-governing territories within Ireland that remained within the UK. The Act also contained provisions for co-operation between the two territories and for the eventual reunification of Ireland. However, partition was reinforced in 1922 when what was intended to be Southern Ireland separated from the United Kingdom as the Irish Free State."

I have entitlement to dual nationality as I was born in the UK, on the island of Ireland, even though it was in Northern Ireland. So I have 2 passports. Surely anyone who was born in the UK can't be stripped of their citizenship?!
God knows they manage to protect all the terrorists and ensure THEIR citizenship rights are protected.

[bobthelook]

Those kids may well know little about politics, they also prob care less about them, but they can see what is happening all around them, they see the lack of jobs, the drugs, the hooker who sells herself for her daily fix, or to feed her kids, they see the depravation, they see the lack of hope, but they know who is responsible, that is why they are voting Yes.

What a load of baloney! So all these problems are the fault of the Union ?  These issues would suddenly disappear with Independence? And as for 16 year olds having a vote - that was just a cynical ploy by Salmond and his ilk to boost the yes vote. You say that these kids are politically ignorant and probably don't even care about them and that all politicians are liars - - but wow if they get Independence then everything will improve!  I have lived for considerable lengths of time in the west of Scotland and also in the East. In my experience there is definitely an anti English mentality in the west but in the East the attitude is very different- far more friendly in general and no anti English at all. The trouble is that emotions seem to cloud rational judgement.  The Union seems to me to be working well enough (look at other countries for comparison) so IMO 'if it aint broke don't try and fix it'.  :whistle:

[Tetley]

Jammin
most of us understand that polatics is total Bollicks ,however the diffrence with this episode is that it may effect   ex pats out of Scotland a lot more than its going to effect them if they were back in Scotland .

there is one thing having housing issues here  wich may eventualy get sorted,it is a total diffrent thing not to have a free movment right to get to use your home or be a pensioner with no reciprocal health agrement.

lets be honest,if the uk bins the EU,but spain is quite happy to allow the 2 week Ryan air Benidorm beanos how many UK  pensioners will take op the cheap flights & hotels  in winter with no E111  or pay for over the top private medical insurence.

non of this is good ,my lad watched the news yesterday and asked,why are the Irish Orange men parading in Scotland..... i replyed there not Irish there Scotish.

hopefully by this time next week Scotland will still be part of the Uninted Kigdom.

:tiphat:

[webejamin]

I don't think many people are under any illusions about the laws, it's all the other issues that are being twisted and turned by all sides, we don't need a pencil to work out the issues covered by any laws. When it comes to other issues, Salmond and his mob are like a bag of cats, but so are Cameron and co.
It's the dishonest twisting and misquoting of other peoples words, by people that can't win there arguments, the attempted discrediting of truths being told. Even people not involved are at it, thinking it makes them look clever. :tiphat:

[Tetley]

That why laws are deffinative along with legal contracts signed by both partys,i think RR  is bang on the money ,i think anybody in doubt should pop along to there local Spanish Law Uni Librery and sit and read the laws regarding entry into Spain as a non EU  cit and also the laws regarding residing here as a non EU cit.

as for Scotland just popping back into the EU after king Salmond has been crownd,they will need to run it past Madrid first and with Cataluna champing for a referndum i carnt realy see that one happening any time soon.


have a nice day citizens  :tiphat:

as for john,just pay somebody to shoot the CXXXT  .

[macc]

Is Jihadi John  going to have a big impact on the union, just watch the way the media and the no side work this load of scaremongering. Britain will go to war with the Islamic state next week, that may help the no vote a little.

[Neanderthal]

There seems to be so much wishful thinking on the issues concerned with Scottish independence. On the whole, I believe RR to be correct. Laws tend to be very definitive in the way they are framed; they could not really be otherwise. So if you wish to drive your car, whether in the UK or Spain, you must have your car licenced, have insurance and MOT or its equivalent. You may drive without these, but you are then breaking the law. Much the same applies to being a member of the UK, or the EU, or NATO.

Alex Salmond and Nigel Farage have much in common; they both want to resign from the Golf Club, but continue drinking at the bar. Snake oil salesmen both.

[webejamin]

I wonder how much trade Scotland does with EU countries? Do Scotland export more than they import? How many goods vehicles travel through EU countries to get to Scotland or vice versa?
Just asking coz I don't know. Mornin all :tiphat:

[byrney]

"But I do care that people are making decisions on the basis of fantasy, not facts" - fully agree RR, but isn't that what happens every time there is an election of any sort, whether it be local, national, european, or referendun?

It's one of the very few drawbacks of democracy, but this way the public does have some control over the lunatics in power.

[ramblarider]

Neanderthal, i just thought Ramblarider miss spelt it as a joke, but obviously not, but anyway,
two main options have been put on the table for (re-)accommodating an independent Scotland in the European Union: accession of an independent Scotland to the European Union by means of the procedure of accession of new member states set out in Article 49 TEU; or accommodation of Scotland as a new member state at the same time as it achieves independence, by means of a revision of the European Treaties according to Article 48 TEU. The latter option is supported by the Scottish government in its Scotland's Future White Paper of November 2013. The Treaty revision would enter into force at the same time as Scotland would become independent (and the government suggested a date for this to happen, namely 24 March 2016). In this way, there would be a seamless transition. Scotland would not first drop out of the EU by separating from the UK, and later climb in again through an accession treaty; it would simply stay inside the EU all the time.

That totally ignores the fact that this requires a treaty revision - which can only happen if all member states agree to it. Both Spain and Belgium are deeply opposed to that in principle and would almost certainly veto it. It is wishful thinking and wildly optimistic. The reality is different.

Instead of believing this fanciful rubbish spouted by Salmond, listen to what people within the EU are saying:

http://www.euractiv.com/sections/eu-elections-2014/independent-scotland-would-have-reapply-eu-nato-officials-say-308295

"Barroso weighed in to the Scottish referendum debate when he told a BBC television interviewer in February that states breaking away from existing EU countries would struggle to gain EU membership.

All EU states would need to back the membership of any new country that emerged from a member state, he said.

"It would be extremely difficult to get approval of all the other member states ... I believe it's going to be extremely difficult, if not impossible,"

Throughout, Salmond has evaded and flat-out lied about this issue. I have no personal axe to grind as to what Scotland does. I really don't care - but I do care that people are making decisions on the basis of fantasy, not facts.

[Challenger 383]

I hope they vote No,

But I think in the heat of the moment  the Yes vote will just win and let the blame game begin in Westminster, the sooner Lord Snooty and the Gonk sidekick get removed from office the better.

[webejamin]

One thing is for "certain", if there is an independent Scotland, the big money boys that say they "may" move out, "might" want to stay for fear of losing their Scottish customers money :o The big stores "may" increase their prices, but then they "might" not, coz Tesco's "might dive in and grab all the business :o
It "could be" that Scottish people, born in the UK "might" keep their UK British status "if" they want to, just like the Irish people "could" after independence.
I "hope" they vote no personally, but I do recognise a load of old bo#;#ks when I hear it and I'm hearing quite a lot of it, from all directions :whistle:

PS "If" I were Scottish, I'd "probably" feel a bit rebellious at the moment  ??? or "would" I  ???  

[macc]

Neanderthal, i just thought Ramblarider miss spelt it as a joke, but obviously not, but anyway,
two main options have been put on the table for (re-)accommodating an independent Scotland in the European Union: accession of an independent Scotland to the European Union by means of the procedure of accession of new member states set out in Article 49 TEU; or accommodation of Scotland as a new member state at the same time as it achieves independence, by means of a revision of the European Treaties according to Article 48 TEU. The latter option is supported by the Scottish government in its Scotland's Future White Paper of November 2013. The Treaty revision would enter into force at the same time as Scotland would become independent (and the government suggested a date for this to happen, namely 24 March 2016). In this way, there would be a seamless transition. Scotland would not first drop out of the EU by separating from the UK, and later climb in again through an accession treaty; it would simply stay inside the EU all the time.

[Neanderthal]

Steady on, Macc. On a querty keyboard, the i and the o are adjacent, so ´"live" can easily be typed as "love".

[Piston Broke]

Woe....woe .... and thrice woe !!!
For it came to pass that the humble sweaty sock was banished from the Kingdom of Spain and the EU for uttering the word .... YES !!!
Yet the impoverished citizens of the former Soviet Union having somehow not being able to qualify for EU membership have managed  to divert themselves past the EU qualification schools and having converted their roubles and sold their horse and carts are now buying more properties in Spain in the last six months than any other nationalities.
This is apparently due to the promise of Residency should they supposedly spend E250,000 plus, which will earn you a spanking new Spanish passport.
What part of EU policy is this ?
Will the newly presented Spanish passport contain the place of birth or has Moscow been renamed Madrid.
Will any Scottish pilots living and working in the current EU be banished off to the Shetland Isles  and will Jimbo the Scot have to change his name to "Urcal Ed"?

Tune in next week for another exciting episode.