The Middle East Problem

[Roger]

I thought racism was not allowed on this forum.

[webejamin]

Been there done it and got the teeshirt. How it all came about is history, it's how it is today. None of them have been saints in the past, as you will see in the history of the middle east, all down to our ancestors, It's what happens now that counts. If we all want to harp on about what happened in the past, we won't get anywhere. It's entirely down to a political solution now, and I can't see that happening soon. The trouble with the Arab nations is that they don't do politics, just the iron fist and knife in the back, it's in em forever, it's what they do, very bad and silly things, it's what they're good at. :tiphat:

[LisaD]

If you have lived in that region (although I would imagine that living in Sinai is very different from living in Israel itself) then you will know that families of Palestinian Arabs who have died in suicide bombings are given financial rewards by the government.  The dead "heros" also frequently had streets named after them under Arafat's rule.  I don't know if this charming custom has continued since his death.

I'm not aware of Israeli religious fanatics going out and murdering Palestinians?
You get the odd Zionist nutcase, but compared to the number of muslim nutters and suicide bombers?

You will also be aware that Palestinian Arabs rejected the UN's offer of a Palestinian State, which was made at the same time as when Israel was founded.

They only started to call themselves Palestinians after the war in '67 and in fact took the name from the British who had named it Palestine when they took over from the Ottoman Empire.  Both Jews and Arabs were Palestinians then!

Palestinian comes from "Philistine" a race who were around centuries before Islam came into being.  Many muslim arabs appear confused as to where their beloved "roots" actually originate from - I know I am :lol:

[ramblarider]

A rather simplistic, typically American, view that doesn't stand up to academic rigour. He's completely, possibly conveniently, overlooked the issue of Jerusalem, which land it lays in, and how sacred it is to three of the worlds major religions.
I personally respect Israels' right to exist and deplore the Muslim/Hamas assault on a whole population since the British left in 1948.  

I would also recommend a visit to the Sinai if you have not been, it is little more than desert and three oil fields. There is a fantastic, almost complete, Israeli base that was abandoned very hastily, on northern Sinai. It gives you a good taste of what the conflict must have been like on both sides.  

Absolutely correct.

I have worked in the North Sinai. I have also seen - first hand - not via the internet or the "Daily Mail" - precisely what goes on there. Similar situation in the West Bank.

Yes, there are attacks by Palestinian factions on Israel. They sometimes do very bad, and silly things....

However... THEIR lands (which are acknowledged to be such by UN), are built on by Israeli so-called "settlements". Their olive groves are destroyed. They are routinely abused and murdered by Israeli religious fanatics (the same ones who killed their own prime minister a few years ago), nothing is done about this. No justice. Nothing. They are discriminated against, exploited, their houses are destroyed and even Israeli Arabs are treated like 4th class citizens. Israel is a deeply racist, bigoted society.  Certainty no model for decency and freedom.

You need to GO THERE to see this. Don't rely on the media...

[LisaD]

The Palestinian Arabs owned an even smaller percentage of property/land than the Jews at that time and they were invited to provide proof of ownership.

There is also a sizeable Arab population living in modern Israel today, side by side the Jews and of course the other minority faiths

As to religious claims over Jerusalem ...the muslims have Mecca don't they?

Considering the fact that the Islamic faith only came about centuries after both Judaism and Christianity, I think they should wind their neck in as far as Israel and any holy cities within that land is concerned

[webejamin]

If we dig around we can find all sorts of facts and figures to suit our arguments. I for one, prefer a simple answer to a simple question. I can believe and support either side in any conflict, but at the end of the day, I have to decide for myself which side I see as the aggressor. The Palestinian people are generally peace loving people that just want the same as everyone else. The problems start when groups like Hamas take the lead and bring death and destruction upon the people it says it represents. Hamas, IS, call them what you want, they are one and the same. We have to look at the problem as it is, not how it was, we can't go back in time. All of this middle east problem is not about Israel, it's all about control. Israel just want to be left in peace, but I don't suppose it ever will be, that's why they have such a tough stance. Given the choice, I would back Israel, because I have never, ever, been threatened by a Jew. :tiphat:  
 

[jimmybeen]

"Thank goodness for Google"   How true 'keyser soze' I've found web sites listed on Google that prove that the holocaust never happened and the North pole is in Pakistan. It's so good that we can find the Factual stuff on line isn't it!  

[keyser soze]

Here is a brief and factual history of the conflict:

The seed of this conflict was planted in 1882 when the Zionist movement started with a group of secular (non-religious) European Jews to establish a homeland for the Jews in Palestine. Up to the 1920's, Jews lived in peace with Muslims and Christians in Palestine for about 1300 years (except when the European Crusaders killed all the Jews and Muslims in Jerusalem 900 years ago). Most of the Jews who lived in Palestine till then were Arabs.

When Britain occupied Palestine during World War 1, it gave a declaration (Balfour Declaration 1917) to the Zionist Federation that Britain will facilitate establishing a national home for the Jews in Palestine. There was one big problem however: the land already was populated by native Arabs (Mostly Muslim, but with significant Christian 7% and Jewish minorities 9%).

Britain opened the door to Jewish immigration from Europe, which increased in the 1930's and 1940's because of Nazism and the Holocaust. In 1948 the Jews made up 33% of the population of Palestine, but owned only 7% of the land. The UN voted (Res. 181) to split Palestine 55% for the Jews and 45% for the Palestinians to establish a Jewish and Arab States in Palestine, and to make Jerusalem an international area. War broke out between the Arabs and Jews in 1948 and the Jews occupied 80% of Palestine and established Israel on it. In the process Israel ethnically cleansed (forcibly removed) 80% of the Palestinians from the land they occupied and destroyed and depopulated more than 400 Palestinian villages, massacred thousands of Palestinians and made 0.75 million Palestinians refugees.

The UN voted in 1948 (Security Council Resolutions 93 and General Assembly Res. 194) to tell Israel to allow the Palestinian refugees to return to their homes, but until today Israel never complied. In 1967 Israel militarily occupied the remainder of Palestine (The West Bank and the Gaza Strip). The Security Council again voted in 1967 and 1973 that Israel return to the 1967 borders and allow the refugees to return, but Israel never complied (Security Council Res. 237, 242, 338).

This gives you a brief history of the roots of the problem. The Palestinians now negotiate to get only the lands occupied in 1967 back to establish their own state on it, and for Israel to allow the deposed people in 1948 and 1967 to return to their original homes.

Israel is only accepting to return only parts of the lands occupied in 1967. The land they accept to return has no borders with the outside world (making it an effective jail guarded by the Israelis). They also refuse to allow the refugees to return. They also have built many illegal settlements in the West Bank and planted nearly 500,000 Israeli extremists in them. Israel has taken control of nearly 5/6 of the water resources in the West Bank, and has built an apartheid wall that dwarfs the Berlin wall around and through Palestinian cities and villages in the West Bank

They also refuse to return East Jerusalem, which is part of the West Bank, to the Palestinians.

Again this is a very brief background. It in no way describes the daily suffering, abuse, humiliation, terror and deprivation of basic human rights the Israelis inflict on the Palestinians.

Thank goodness for google

[JohnJones]

A rather simplistic, typically American, view that doesn't stand up to academic rigour. He's completely, possibly conveniently, overlooked the issue of Jerusalem, which land it lays in, and how sacred it is to three of the worlds major religions.
I personally respect Israels' right to exist and deplore the Muslim/Hamas assault on a whole population since the British left in 1948.  

I would also recommend a visit to the Sinai if you have not been, it is little more than desert and three oil fields. There is a fantastic, almost complete, Israeli base that was abandoned very hastily, on northern Sinai. It gives you a good taste of what the conflict must have been like on both sides.  

[jimmybeen]

So so true !! How very concise an explanation this is. It has always bothered me that the rest of the world describes some of the state as occupied, but like the Sinai the only 'occupied' areas were taken whilst the state was defending itself during wars, wars that were in fact Israel defending itself from the Arab neighbours.    

[MELEE]

Absolutely true sallyb

[sallyb]

Well picked up Melee, what's more what he says is true.

[MELEE]

WOW - this guy has it spot on!




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